dealing with broken 3++ chaos lord disc man

[toots]

what to do about 3++ save tzeentch disc man who re rolls his 1's? he's got the crown of command too of course.

frankly i cannot think of anything more broken and against the spirit of the game. the only thing i can think of to do is fight fire with fire and try to bog him down by charging with a pegasus dreadlord who has: fencers blades, glittering scales, featherfoe torc and the pidgeon plucker pendant. that would be a re-rollable 5+ to hit that he's got to make, followed by a 2+ armour save and a 5++ from the pendant. the chaos man has a great weapon, so that's S7 attacks coming in, my friends.

strategy would be to bolt thrower the chimera off the board, and hover in front of my rigid line with the dreadlord hoping the chaos man fails his charge to the units behind me and just floats to ground in front of me. then i charge it, challenge, and then that's those two models completely out of the game forever.

*sigh*. i wish i didn't have to build my lord around dealing with disgraceful brokenness. the only other thing i could think of was to cast doom and darkness from a level 4 death to make him fail his stubborn/steadfast roll and then run him down.

very disappointing that GW have let that combo come into existence, but i guess things like that will get through. or am i missing something?

[T.D.]

Yep, he got through the playtesting.

How 'bout Death sniping?

Or a Black Amulet/OTS GW (or Halberd or Sword of Might) Peglord (more multifunctional than the build you mentioned).

Edit: Or a AoD/Dawnstone/OTS guy if you don't fancy "wound tennis"

[toots]

i just worked it out and per round i'd be receiving 1.15 wounds and giving back 0.83 were i to use your first item combination (taking into account 'reflections'). *sigh*. i think the equivalent of the boxing hug is the only way to go.

i don't think death sniping would work as the ward save is just completely ridiculous. and the OTS only negates the re-rolling of the result when the result is a one, so they just always get a straight-up 3++ in combat. pffft roll on 9th my friends!

[T.D.]

Auto-kill spells might be another approach -- 1 in 6 chance of a kill.

...or trying to squash him with an OTS Dragonlord

[toots]

there's no hope! spending all my power dice final trans every turn might do it eventually but it's going to use up disproportionate resources. wow. i cannot believe how obscene that guy is. maybe a boosted word of pain followed by dwellers below? hmm. or soulblight. he'd have to fail it though... you get one go then he's in combat. :/

[Phierlihy]

Try and put pressure on him with some RBT shots so he rushes into combat and then beat him with combat resolution. If he charges in and does no damage because he runs into someone with a Ward Save, you have a very good chance he'll break and run. For added insurance, bring a Kharibdyss.

Run a Dreadlord with a re-rollable 1+ armor save and a 4+ ward save - you can tie him up all game.

If he's on a disk, he is cavalry (the disk is a war beast) so hit him with Executioners.

Throw #6 spells at him.

Word of Pain.

Enfeebling Foe.

Doom and Darkness so he runs from anything that causes Fear/Terror.

And the list goes on...


If you think he's over powered, try playing against a bunch of cheap-as-dirt Warlock units.

[Red...]

Don't play his game, play your own. Bring a super mobile list that just runs away from everything he has, while pinging it to death. See how many pegasus characters you can squeeze in (preferably including some mages for lore of death sniping or save ignoring super spells such as Dwellers or Final Trans - and those that aren't mages should be given RxBs), then supplement that with small units of 5 warlocks, dark riders, and shades. Concentrate their missile fire on chaff units (to gain points), while running away from anything and everything that is big enough to hurt them (while ensuring to avoid allowing your opponent to do multiple over-runs). Consider sacrificing at least one minor unit if it will get his nasty Tzeentch lord to over-run off the table, removing him from the battle for an additional turn. If he complains that the game is boring, point out that it's the only real option dark elves have against the silly lord of Tzeentch and that when he's ready to play the game at a more fun level, you'll be right there alongside him. But if he wants to be a d**kweed - dark elves do that better than anyone.

[Killerk]

Give him a jucy target and then charge him with 21 warriors with full command and warbanner. You get charge 3 ranks banner a.d warbanner. Challenge with champ, since he has GW so disc will kill your champ. And your winning combat y a lot. Get a doom and darkness in there and he is gone. As assurance you ca. Get your tanked up charachter in incase he makes that ld 2-3 break. So you have a few turns him taking brakes.

Also that guy is worth about 300-400 points. It will take for ever for him to get his poits back if you feed him with cheep targets.
Also he is classified as cav making him a viable target for killing blow. All it takes for him to roll that 2 or faill to reroll that ward. OTS is nice to have, makes his ward save unreliable.

[toots]

thanks killerK, that's not a bad idea at all. he's just too mobile to feed him the units i want i think. a killing blow assassin with OTS and glittering scales may well survive more than a round. especially if the -1 to hit spell from light magic was cast on that unit, which brings me onto...

i think i have resolved to row back on the idea of the dark magic + black guard sorceress combo, and will instead go with light magic. killing him is not an option, but if i can timewarp a flying character (the boxing hugger described in my first post) then he'll have a charge of 20" + swiftsride = 29". that should help me connect with the little b*stard. once he is 'ensnared', that's it for the whole game. my lord takes 0.23 wounds per combat round i worked out. plus it's good for hitting the chimera with flaming attacks, and also good for the large unit of cold ones i'll be bringing. and also for the daemons and undead armies that will be partaking.

sigh. were it not for this tournament i just wouldn't play the guy.

p.s. i'm pretty hacked off i can't use the dark magic i was planning on using!!!

[T.D.]

You should post Mr Slugger the Boxing Hugger on the character Compendium.

It's a nice counter to flying roadblocks/deathmachines

[Phierlihy]

Just an FYI but DE warriors can't take a Warbanner.

I'm still not used to Khaine rules but it occurred to me, the most obvious counter to this character is Arcane Unforging.

[direweasel]

Two words: "Black Amulet". The great equalizer.

[T.D.]

I'm still not used to Khaine rules but it occurred to me, the most obvious counter to this character is Arcane Unforging.

[toots]

Two words: "Black Amulet". The great equalizer.

mate, get your calculator out!! it's not a good idea. my man will be dead within three rounds. :/

You should post Mr Slugger the Boxing Hugger on the character Compendium.

It's a nice counter to flying roadblocks/deathmachines

yeah maybe i will!

Just an FYI but DE warriors can't take a Warbanner.

I'm still not used to Khaine rules but it occurred to me, the most obvious counter to this character is Arcane Unforging.

my mate plays lizardmen and that's his plan. same as plan as the wood elf guy.

[direweasel]

Two words: "Black Amulet". The great equalizer.

mate, get your calculator out!! it's not a good idea. my man will be dead within three rounds. :/

Yeah maybe, but the chaos lord will be near death too, where a bolt thrower shot or something can hopefully finish him off.

[Thraundil]

"Hopefully" is the bane of good planning! A chaos lord near death awards zero victory points. A bolt thrower shot to hopefully finish him off?

Math time. Lets assume the bolt thrower is on short range just to paint a picture. 2/3 to hit. Chaos lords are T5, so 2/3 to wound as well. Now his ward dice must hit either a straight up 2 (1/6 chance) or a 1 followed by a 1 or a 2 (1/6 times 2/6 = 2/36). So a total of 8/36 chance for him to fail his ward save. Time it all together: (2*2*8) / (3*3*36) = 32/324 = just shy of 10% chance for a single bolt thrower shot to finish the job. This drops to 7,4% if the dude is on long range.

Are you going to vest your hope of winning a game of warhammer on a 10% chance?

As has been suggested: arcane unforging, static combat res combined with either doom and darkness or shroud of despair, or instant kill spells are the best bets. And then just dont fight him. If your WoC opponent feels OK bringing this kind of bull**** to the gaming table, you should not hesitate to make an all fast cav vanguard army and just magic him to bits.

[direweasel]

Well my "or something" is really more what I was going for. Specifics depend on what your list has in it. If you have him mostly dead, hitting with a spell or bolt thrower or something can often do the job. And it doesn't that much luck for the Amulet to kill him outright.

But still, the math is, as always, helpful and appreciated. I rarely have the motivation to do so, especially in situations like now, when I'm posting from work on my lunch break.

[Killerk]

Just an FYI but DE warriors can't take a Warbanner.

They can up to 25 points.

"Hopefully" is the bane of good planning! A chaos lord near death awards zero victory points. A bolt thrower shot to hopefully finish him off?

Math time. Lets assume the bolt thrower is on short range just to paint a picture. 2/3 to hit. Chaos lords are T5, so 2/3 to wound as well. Now his ward dice must hit either a straight up 2 (1/6 chance) or a 1 followed by a 1 or a 2 (1/6 times 2/6 = 2/36). So a total of 8/36 chance for him to fail his ward save. Time it all together: (2*2*8) / (3*3*36) = 32/324 = just shy of 10% chance for a single bolt thrower shot to finish the job. This drops to 7,4% if the dude is on long range.

Are you going to vest your hope of winning a game of warhammer on a 10% chance?

Well you can have 4 bolt throwers, and more then one round of shooting , so suddenly the odds are not that impossible.

[toots]

Yeah but with respect you're just spunking resources away for very little reward. He's already killed your Lord who's worth over 250pts and then you aren't shooting his Knights whilst you're pinging bolts off him. Attempting to kill is a waste of time and resource, I'm better off boosted signature life spelling at the chimera to draw dispel dice, then timewarping into his general with my boxing hugger which is the real objective. As much as I like the idea of dark magic it's not that great. Just look at me! When shiz hits the fan I'm straight back to light! These games will find their way onto YouTube apparently so you'll get to see exactly what happens!!

[Dark reaper]

KillerK: The war banner is 35pts in 8th edition

[direweasel]

Well you can have 4 bolt throwers, and more then one round of shooting , so suddenly the odds are not that impossible.

Yeah I tend to field 3-4 in most medium sized games, and have in fact actually fielded all 8 before, that was a 5k battle iirc.