General / BSB / Wizard / Masters

[Lodoss1980]

Hi All,

I almost completed painting my army:
30x Witches
30x Executioners
20x Dark Shards
10x CoK
1x Cauldron of Blood
2x War Hydra
10x Dark Riders
10x Warlocks
3x Repeater Bolt Thrower

However i have not painted a single (except the basic wizard) BSB/General/Wizard/Master etc. for this army. I have planned to paint two masters on dark Pegasus. But if i look at all the army lists the options are so much that i don't know what to take So my questions are (we don't play named characters):

- Which BSB options should i build and paint?
- Which general options should i build and paint?
- Which wizard options should i build and paint?
- Which other here/master should i build and paint?

Hope you all can throw me some advice!

Kind regards,

Lodoss

[Thraundil]

Impressive! Big kudos from here, that is quite a project. Pictures?

There are a wide number of options available in the DE armybook, which is possibly one of the most flexible when it comes to characters. Some choices are more hardcore competitive, others are more friendly/funhammer.
First, let me make one thing clear though. Foot heroes are suboptimal

With this in mind.
BSB:

- Pegasus. A popular choice on all skill levels. Highly mobile means he can be where he needs to be, adding rerolls where your line falters, and adding combat punch where you need that difference maker. Popular items: 1+ armor save and either cloak of twilight OR a charmed shield + talisman of preservation. The former is more stable to shooting and magic, whereas the latter is more durable in combat. This is my personal choice whenever possible.

- Cold one. CoK are stupid. Stuff a BSB in them permanently to solve that issue. In this combo, go with charmed shield + talisman of preservation for maximum survivability.

- Cauldron of Blood. Perfectly viable choice, but vulnerable to cannons and catapults. I do not recommend if you play in a cannon heavy meta.

- Dark Steed. Flexible. Fast. Has many of the pegasus masters advantages, but doesnt fly and only 2W. He does, however, get a look out, sir. Also a fine choice. See CO master items.

General

Almost same options as for BSB.

- Pegasus. Dark elves have high LD, so you dont absolutely need to keep the general closeby. Popular builds: cloak of twilight + dawnstone, or talisman of preservation, other tricksters and ogre blade. Hard hitting in each their way. This is again my choice

- Cold One. Sub optimal, but can function as a CoK bus. Would not recommend.

- Steed. Fast, flexible. Retains 3W unlike a master. Since Look out, sir! protects from cannons, you can go all offensive: giant blade, dawnstone, other tricksters.

Wizard

Choice between mounted or on foot. There are so so many factors to consider, impossible to list them all. Choice should depend on lore. Short range spells, vortexes etc.? Go with a steed wizard. Long range spells, hexes and so? Go with a foot slogger.

Other masters

PEGASUS MASTERS! Yes, they are that good.


Hope this swift rundown can help you out. Choose first and foremost for what you think would be fun.

[Lord Drakon]

Impressive! Big kudos from here, that is quite a project. Pictures?

There are a wide number of options available in the DE armybook, which is possibly one of the most flexible when it comes to characters. Some choices are more hardcore competitive, others are more friendly/funhammer.
First, let me make one thing clear though. Foot heroes are suboptimal

With this in mind.
BSB:

- Pegasus. A popular choice on all skill levels. Highly mobile means he can be where he needs to be, adding rerolls where your line falters, and adding combat punch where you need that difference maker. Popular items: 1+ armor save and either cloak of twilight OR a charmed shield + talisman of preservation. The former is more stable to shooting and magic, whereas the latter is more durable in combat. This is my personal choice whenever possible.

- Cold one. CoK are stupid. Stuff a BSB in them permanently to solve that issue. In this combo, go with charmed shield + talisman of preservation for maximum survivability.

- Cauldron of Blood. Perfectly viable choice, but vulnerable to cannons and catapults. I do not recommend if you play in a cannon heavy meta.

- Dark Steed. Flexible. Fast. Has many of the pegasus masters advantages, but doesnt fly and only 2W. He does, however, get a look out, sir. Also a fine choice. See CO master items.

General

Almost same options as for BSB.

- Pegasus. Dark elves have high LD, so you dont absolutely need to keep the general closeby. Popular builds: cloak of twilight + dawnstone, or talisman of preservation, other tricksters and ogre blade. Hard hitting in each their way. This is again my choice

- Cold One. Sub optimal, but can function as a CoK bus. Would not recommend.

- Steed. Fast, flexible. Retains 3W unlike a master. Since Look out, sir! protects from cannons, you can go all offensive: giant blade, dawnstone, other tricksters.

Wizard

Choice between mounted or on foot. There are so so many factors to consider, impossible to list them all. Choice should depend on lore. Short range spells, vortexes etc.? Go with a steed wizard. Long range spells, hexes and so? Go with a foot slogger.

Other masters

PEGASUS MASTERS! Yes, they are that good.


Hope this swift rundown can help you out. Choose first and foremost for what you think would be fun.

Thraundil forgot the mention another the option for the BSB, the Manticore. You pay 100 points more for a monster instead of flying mount. This is the only BSB option with a re-roll bubble of 18" making most out of him as BSB. Different than pegasus masters who can act solo to juicy targets (warmachines, missile infantry), the manticore master is more fragile outside combat so have to remain near forces. This makes it a better BSB than on a pegasus, not perse master option, but BSB option. Besides that the psychological factor of having a Manticore is nearly the same as having a Dragon (for the enemy) as it is not that common choice so people as less familiar with it. The general can go war machine hunting on a pegasus, with even 50 more magic items points and better statline as his + 1 or 2 leadership is not that huge. Re-rolling is huge. Besides that it causes terror, has killing blow (cavarly) and thunderstomp (infantry).

My suggestion according to what you have build so far

- General on Dark Pegasus (take the build Thraundil suggested)
- BSB on Manticore
- Sorceress on Dark Steed
- Sorceress on foot

Besides the tactical benefits of a Manticore, both in army book fluff and modelling, the manticore is just cooler haha

[Dark reaper]

On the other hand, the Peg is protected by the Riders armour and Ward save as well as giving him +1T and +1W. Pegs and Dark Steeds are really strong and tbh I find the Dark Steed to be better than the Cold One in almost every aspect.

My favourite build for a mounted character lately has been a Dreadlord on DP with Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield (swap it out if you have a BSB you want to give this to), Dragonbane Gem and Cloak of Twilight. He hits like a truck both on the charge and if he is the one receiving the charge and he is decent after the first round as well. He is also extremely good if you run into Ethereals, as his 2++ against flaming will help you massively against Hexwraiths.

[direweasel]

With that many witches and a cauldron, I'd also recommend you get at least one hag queen mini for your army. I know you said you didn't use named characters, but I'd still recommend using the Hellebron mini for a hag queen. If you have the current cauldron model it should have come with one. If not, you can get her separately on eBay as a bits order, I think I paid about $4 for her. A BSB can be a relatively easy conversion too, either on the cauldron or as another queen.

Also, with a decent Cold One unit, you might consider a character on a Cold One. This might also be a fabulous location for a BSB, because of its mobility, and because it can help you reroll a stupidity test.

This piece of advice is dependant on whether or not you typically share your army list with your opponent before you set up. If you don't, I also recommend you buy an assassin model. And make sure your regular opponents KNOW you have an assassin model, and always bring him and set him on the table before the game starts. Most people who play warhammer fantasy don't know your army as well as a regular dark elf player, and they don't know assassins are sub-optimal. They just know that they can pop out of a unit from disguise and attack a character. This will change the way they approach your army. They might forgo a charge they would have otherwise made for fear of the dreaded assassin. I've seen it happen. It's a psychology play to try to play mind games with your opponent. I'm not suggesting you actually put him in the army, just that you make sure your opponent knows you CAN.

And yes, I also agree with Drakon - I love manticore riders, and yes I know they're sub-optimal choices, at least under the current rules. But unlike Peggys, they do cause terror, and in some cases that can make a huge difference. It's a nice tool to have in your arsenal if you can get your hands on one.

[Lord Drakon]

This piece of advice is dependant on whether or not you typically share your army list with your opponent before you set up. If you don't, I also recommend you buy an assassin model. And make sure your regular opponents KNOW you have an assassin model, and always bring him and set him on the table before the game starts. Most people who play warhammer fantasy don't know your army as well as a regular dark elf player, and they don't know assassins are sub-optimal. They just know that they can pop out of a unit from disguise and attack a character. This will change the way they approach your army. They might forgo a charge they would have otherwise made for fear of the dreaded assassin. I've seen it happen. It's a psychology play to try to play mind games with your opponent. I'm not suggesting you actually put him in the army, just that you make sure your opponent knows you CAN.

In short, Dark Elves have access to the coolest characters in the game
Its a shame our masters and sorceress are so amazingly effective, leaving assassins and death hag out.

[Red...]

Assassins are the only character that can carry non magic weapon magic items in a unit of witches without getting lynched each turn. That makes them a good choice when you want magic resistance in your witch horde. An assassin with ring of hotek in a unit of witches with cauldron gives a 2+ ward against direct damage and magic missile spells. You have to reveal him to get that benefit though.

[Thraundil]

Comment to Lord Dragons comments:

- I did not forget to mention a manticore BSB. I omitted it on purpose, as I find a manticore BSB very vulnerable. The manticore itself comes on a monster base, making it a huge fire magnet, and it does not share in the masters magic item benefits. He will soon find himself without a mount. I greatly prefer to take the pegasus BSB, and then if I want a manticore (which so far I just havent found a reason to yet) I would put another master on it. Just not the BSB.

Also. Its not the only option for an 18" BSB bubble. A death hag on a cauldron of blood is a large target also.

[jeffman]

Comment to Lord Dragons comments:

- I did not forget to mention a manticore BSB. I omitted it on purpose, as I find a manticore BSB very vulnerable. The manticore itself comes on a monster base, making it a huge fire magnet, and it does not share in the masters magic item benefits. He will soon find himself without a mount. I greatly prefer to take the pegasus BSB, and then if I want a manticore (which so far I just havent found a reason to yet) I would put another master on it. Just not the BSB.

Also. Its not the only option for an 18" BSB bubble. A death hag on a cauldron of blood is a large target also.

But wouldn't the death hag die even more easily than the manticore master? The death hag only has a 5++ where the manticore master can have a 4++ with charmed shield or 3++. And if the manticore gets shot he's still viable on foot as a bsb. And the manticore is much more easy to get in combat or behind terrain to avoid cannons.

i never use both of them, but after readings Lord Drakons post i am considering to try it once (and try to protect it with by including other cannon magnets)

[Dark reaper]

The Cauldron is a much bigger asset to your army than the Manticore is though. The Cauldron itself has t6, w5 and a 4++ as well as giving Witch Elves 5++ and any other unit 6++. It also comes with a nifty bound spell and a great ability that lets you re-roll all to wound-rolls. The Manticore on the other hand has t5, w4, no save and can be targeted by everything. It also only gives you a meager 4 s5 attacks.

[Red...]

The Cauldron is a much bigger asset to your army than the Manticore is though. The Cauldron itself has t6, w5 and a 4++ as well as giving Witch Elves 5++ and any other unit 6++. It also comes with a nifty bound spell and a great ability that lets you re-roll all to wound-rolls. The Manticore on the other hand has t5, w4, no save and can be targeted by everything. It also only gives you a meager 4 s5 attacks.

Right, but that makes it an even bigger target. I'm not disagreeing with you, but when confronted by a non-BSB Cauldron and a BSB master (even a BSB master on a manticore), the opponent has two major areas to focus on - the Cauldron makes the unit it is with uber good, while the BSB provides his/her bonus to all units within 12/18" independently. Thus it takes two successful cannonball shots to eliminate a BSB master and a Cauldron of Blood when run independently, it only takes one successful cannonball shot to really screw you over if you take a BSB Cauldron. I'm not saying BSB Cauldrons are necessarily a bad idea, and there is a lot to be said for stacking units heavily to make them powerful, but it's a consideration nonetheless.

[marcopollo]

And the manticore is much more easy to get in combat or behind terrain to avoid cannons.

In my group, you cannot use terrain like forests to hide from cannons. Manticores, like dragons as large targets, got no love from GW this edition. Atleast the ogres "stonehorn" gets the multiple wounds from artillery halved, which I think is a good quick solution to this general problem and would like to see that next edition.

[Lodoss1980]

Thanks guys so far!!

[Dark reaper]

And the manticore is much more easy to get in combat or behind terrain to avoid cannons.

In my group, you cannot use terrain like forests to hide from cannons. Manticores, like dragons as large targets, got no love from GW this edition. Atleast the ogres "stonehorn" gets the multiple wounds from artillery halved, which I think is a good quick solution to this general problem and would like to see that next edition.

I am sure that even in your group cannons can't bounce through impassables.

[direweasel]

In my group, you cannot use terrain like forests to hide from cannons. Manticores, like dragons as large targets, got no love from GW this edition. Atleast the ogres "stonehorn" gets the multiple wounds from artillery halved, which I think is a good quick solution to this general problem and would like to see that next edition.

Yeah because cannons are obviously not good enough and need special help to make them better...

They already get precision, laser-guided targeting, since you can measure and line up everything exactly as you choose. They need to be nerfed a little, not given more special treatment.

[Lord Drakon]

Comment to Lord Dragons comments:

- I did not forget to mention a manticore BSB. I omitted it on purpose, as I find a manticore BSB very vulnerable. The manticore itself comes on a monster base, making it a huge fire magnet, and it does not share in the masters magic item benefits. He will soon find himself without a mount. I greatly prefer to take the pegasus BSB, and then if I want a manticore (which so far I just havent found a reason to yet) I would put another master on it. Just not the BSB.

Also. Its not the only option for an 18" BSB bubble. A death hag on a cauldron of blood is a large target also.

I stand corrected, the COB BSB also provides 18" and sticks to the army.

I also agree with Dark Reaper that COB is a very big asset to witch elf horde or any MSU infantry unit. On the other side you have the pegasus who is much more protected against enemy missile/warmachine shooting, and much better mobility because of its fly move. But I don't agree the BSB Manticore is not worth mentioning.

Yes it lacks the asset to a unit the cob BSB provides and yes it lacks the protection of the pegasus BSB, but it provides the large bubble close to the army AND has the mobility of a pegasus BSB. Only fielding a Manticore BSB without any large targets for enemy cannons would be suicide, but most armies include some monsters, cob or shrine and chariots, so target saturation is your friend here. Remember the BSB Manticore still has a total wounds of 6 instead of 3 of the BSB pegasus. Also most maps will have something like a building to hide your manticore first turn, when he is in combat, he is also safe.

I am not saying the BSB on pegasus is not a good build, it is one of the best, but most players who only have 1 pegasus master (also BSB) tend to use it for enemy warmachine hunting instead as a BSB.

[Praetorian1979]

this is a great topic! I am gaining alot from reading this.

Dont think I have anything to contribute, as you lot are alot wiser in this stuff than I am

Just wanted to mention in my group, we already taken steps to make cannons less powerful.

Forests are disrupting LoS, unless there is a unit inside the forest (then normal forest rules apply). And cannons cannot bounce through buildings, and they must have LoS to see their target, otherwise they cannot fire.

[direweasel]

Yeah, at present I only have 2 pegasi, and one of them is the Morathi figure, which I only really feel justified using as a sorceress. So I would really like to get 2 more pegasi for hero riding purposes. But of course, by the time I do, and by the time they get painted up, a new edition will come out that will make them much weaker.

That's OK, I have manticores and dragons too

[Thraundil]

I've had my pegasi for a year and a half now and they have served me well all this time. Whenever I can, I run three of them. The trick is to work them together. One pegasus into a ranked unit might lose due to challenge and low CR. Three pegasi into a ranked unit will slowly decimate it, one turn at a time, all the while they are completely safe from shooting and magic this is when you then use your super board control units (dark riders, harpies) to make sure no other units can charge your pegasi. Bam!

But yeah. Odds are "combostats" will either be made much weaker next edition, or go completely off rail with dragons getting combi stats too. If this happens, I will only ever play monster mash lists. It would be a smart move by GW: I would buy so many new models