Dark Elves and Magic (non-Khaine).

[Amarel]

I realise this might sound like heresy, but I'm finding myself less and less in thrall of magic whilst using Dark Elves. To put it bluntly; I don't think we're a top tier magic army. And because of that I don't think it's sensible to spend too many dedicated points on it.

Our magical benefits are our wide range of available Lores and +1 to cast when using Dark. However, our ability to generate extra dice, or alter an existing result is very limited (Sac Dagger got nerfed at the same time as our cheapest fodder became over-costed) and Miscasts in low Toughness, Elite troops are the worst. One of the few sensible places to put a high level Sorc is amongst Warlocks, but this puts two highly targetable units together (bad).

Due to this, I'm finding a unit of Warlocks and a Level 2 with a Lore with a buff/debuff as its Signature (Scroll Caddy with Benefits) to be optimal in terms of the points to effectiveness ratio.

Obviously, if you're using Khaine magic, then this is no longer the case, but for those that aren't, are you getting value out of your Level 4?

[Mikael.k]

I belive one needs to pick an army around a specific lore if you go the level 4 route. At least that is what I have started doing. So lately I´ve picked metal and shadow for my level 4. The shadow list has lots of infantry with as many attacks as possible (witches, BG, corsairs) and as much shooting as I can (shards, 3x bolters). The metal list has execs/BG and lots of shooting that synergises well with +1 to hit and 5+ scaly skin for example.

Also, a level 4 allows you to cast more spells per phase due to the extra +4 to each cast. I really need to start looking up charts for the optimal number of dice used to cast each spell

All in all, a level 4 needs a bit more planning than just having a dreadlord with a good kit

[Phierlihy]

Not taking a level 4 wizard saves a LOT of points. I bring a Cauldron of Blood for a nice bound spell that I throw a die or two at near the beginning of the phase just to draw out some dice. If it goes off, great. If it doesn't, I really don't care (unless I'm hitting my Cold One Knights or Executioners...then I care). A scroll caddy is really all I bring along with some Warlocks. I give my BSB the Ring of Hotek so I have above average magical protection overall, reasonably good casting potential, plenty of spells, and am fairly resilient if a miscast wanders my way.

My typical Supreme Sorceress costs about 360 points. And for that I can bring 3 RBTs and a Karybdiss. Magic too often does nothing for me. Unless I'm playing a bigger game, I'm good with leaving her at home.

[Amarel]

@Phierlihy - This all ties in with my feelings, too, good to know it's not just me ( I guess...).

@Mikael.k - I know what you mean about building around the Sorc, but I find that even with that, it's unreliable. I need to keep the Sorc alive (including vs miscasts) and need to balance that against drawing out the inevitable Dispel Scroll, too, to ensure that I have the best chance as possible to get off the 'big spells' when needed. Then I need for the Winds of Magic to favour me on the important turns and also for my dice rolls to succeed and my opponent's to fail. Too often I find that that perfect storm simply doesn't happen. I can sink more points into the trying to ensure my success, but the cost of a unit of Spearmen along with the Sac. Dagger is ridiculous (and you're not taking them for any other reason) and the Forbidden Rod is too much of a risk (even on a back-up Sorc).

Going big on magic is a trap for Dark Elves.

[Thraundil]

My biggest concern with leaving a lvl 4 at home is the defensive capabilities, really... +2 to dispel over the lvl 2 scrollcaddy can make the difference between having enough DD to stop two opponent spells, or only stopping one. Sure, extra points for "other stuff" is awesome, but if you lose 5 shades or 5 dark riders per turn to spells you could easily have stopped with a lvl 4, then is it really worth it?

I should add: I, too, often find that my magic phases are less than impressive. Many of the spells that synergise well with dark elves have high casting values, meaning you only get a few cast attempts per phase and its often too easy for the opponent to get rid of them.

[Eldarwonderland]

Don't use the Ring Of Hotek myself but can the BSB have it at all?

My understanding is that the BSB can have unlimited magic banner but no other magic items.

[Searinox Nagharha]

He gets to choose. Either 50 Points of Magic Items (minus Arcane) OR a Magic Banner with no points limit

[Lord hajjij]

My biggest concern with leaving a lvl 4 at home is the defensive capabilities, really... +2 to dispel over the lvl 2 scrollcaddy can make the difference between having enough DD to stop two opponent spells, or only stopping one. Sure, extra points for "other stuff" is awesome, but if you lose 5 shades or 5 dark riders per turn to spells you could easily have stopped with a lvl 4, then is it really worth it?

I should add: I, too, often find that my magic phases are less than impressive. Many of the spells that synergise well with dark elves have high casting values, meaning you only get a few cast attempts per phase and its often too easy for the opponent to get rid of them.

I'm with Tharundil here, it's just as much about magic defense as offense. And it's not about damaging spells for me as much it's about augments and hexes...where MR doesn't help.

Give some of the other lores a shot and see if they work better with your army and play style. I find it curious that you're having a tough time casting with a level 4 Dark.

[Ajattaro]

I must say that dropping lvl4 is a points efficient choice, but maybe not the most reliable one. DE can sure get good magic defence with all scrolls and MR coupled with abilities to assassinate enemy mages and get into combat fast. However long term defence is relying on +4 dispel if you face lots of magic. Over the game it will mean serious number of dice.

Also if I went without I might want to still take 2 lvls (+ warlocks since they are auto include in competetive list). Then again, you will save only up to 100 points or so. With only one lvl2 you never get the spells you want through, so maybe only viable tactic is spamming 2-dice spells like signature spells, and preferably multiplies of the same one (Miasma or Wyssans propably). Six dicing is still the same with lvl2 though so you can force those big spells through when it pretty much all-or-nothing even with lvl4.

Going entirely without (or very weak on) magic is not sensible for DE though. Even if we are not top magic army anymore (which is ok), magic has important aspects for us since you can augment your plan multiple ways with it, even if your troops are hard fighters anyway. My main concern is always magic defence though, because damage spells and combat hexes hurt our troops real bad since we are expensive, weak and low in numbers.

[Daeron]

I'm not the tournament player, so maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way but... How many other races have a fast-cav sorceress?

[Amarel]

I find it curious that you're having a tough time casting with a level 4 Dark.

Not sure if this is aimed at me or not, but it's not about having a tough time casting a spell a with a level 4, it's about a lack of reliability when it's needed. Even assuming that the winds of magic are favourably average and never roll out those 3 power dice crunch turns (uh-huh), any savvy opponent is not letting you cast the important spells when you need it, so you'll need to hail mary it and hope for Irresistible Force (on a model in an army which is most affected by even the favourable outcomes (high cost, low toughness)).

[Phierlihy]

The reason why I can get by with a level 2 wizard to dispel is simple - the spells that I don't want going through usually go through using 6 dice which I more-than-likely won't stop anyway. Do I let more spells through than I would otherwise? Sure. But I'm also bringing a lot more stuff onto the table and that stuff isn't T3 no armor save and squishy. It's a balancing act and bringing a level 2 has burned me before but I find more often those extra points have made up for it and then some.

[Lord hajjij]

...it's not about having a tough time casting a spell a with a level 4, it's about a lack of reliability when it's needed. Even assuming that the winds of magic are favourably average and never roll out those 3 power dice crunch turns (uh-huh), any savvy opponent is not letting you cast the important spells when you need it, so you'll need to hail mary it and hope for Irresistible Force...

I may have read between the lines a bit - apologies. I was on the train and it's sometimes tough to go back and read exactly what was written on my phone.

In any case, I re-read your OP and I agree that Dark Elves are not a top magic race. I don't think they are a bad magic race though, and when you actually compare the cost of a base level 3 to other races, 185 points seems pretty much in line with what they do. They do after all have access to every lore plus one of their own, and while T3 do have a lot of mount options to help keep them out of trouble. You pay a bit of a premium for variety.

I tend to spend a lot of points on magic, and find it to vary from useful to game-breaking each time I play, with a few exceptions I guess. (vs. kitted out Slaan + skink priests) Even in small, say 4 PD phases - if you actually do the math you will see that your chances of getting a spell off is quite high. For example, with 4PD/3DD winds, you with a level 4 Dark Sorceress have a 90% chance to cast Black Horror, and if you roll exactly average on the dice a level 4 has a 10% chance to dispel it. (level 2 has a like 4% to dispel it)

[Cold73]

Do we need magic as Dark Elves.
The short answer is no...I've played plenty of games against friends who don't like using magic...and then to make it fair I dont use it either. Don't get me wrong without magical buffs we do strugle against armies like Lizardmen...but it is surely possible.

My biggest reason for bringing a lvl 4 is for the magic defence. The +2 on dispel is a huge advantage. (even better if you have Remains in Play spells that force your oppnent to deal with those).
It even brings quite a threat in our own magic phase.

Phierlihy said

The reason why I can get by with a level 2 wizard to dispel is simple - the spells that I don't want going through usually go through using 6 dice which I more-than-likely won't stop anyway.

And i totally agree with that...but will have to throw in some food for thought.... If you only bring a lvl 2 ..your opponent is less likely to try to use 6 dice to cast a spell.
When my opponents only has a lvl 2 I often don't have to throw more then 4 dice at a spell to have a good chance of getting it through. Using 4 dice with a lvl 4 forces your opponent to use 5-6 dice to have a chance to dispel it. .... So I often don't even bother forcing it through. Why risk a miscast and my magical superiority for very little gain.

By using a lvl 4 you force your opponents to throw everything they have into the one spell they need to get off. And if they do...and they miscast...really likely with 6 dice...they will often blow up the unit they are in.

[The_Peacemaker]

I have to disagree about the level 4 for magic defense.
Your telling me that more often than not your dispel attempts are 2pts short. Which just isn't the case. I play almost exclusively with a level 2 in almost all my armies and I always take note of the dice rolls. It's always off by huge margins. I throw 5 dice to dispel and its either super high or super low. Very rarely are the numbers close.

You take a level 4 because it synergizes with your army.

Also the sac dagger can work but its best used in a darkshards unit so that the unit can shoot stuff instead of just stand around. It's a few more points but its not like your using the sac dagger on every single spell.

Yyoull probably sac like 6 guys tops in each game.

[tehnico]

It doesn't give me much magic defense. But I do find that the Warlocks are a huge bonus in mitigating less magic by choice (taking a L2 instead of 4 for instance). I'm much more likely now to 6 dice a boosted doombolt from the warlocks, and rely on a few buffs from a more under powered Sorceress. Miscast be damned. My opponent knows I'll get one or two off per game, not suffer so much from it, and they save their dice to stop it on the chance they get the opportunity to dispel it.

Because of this, those buffs go off reliably. I'm thinking Miasma, or PoD, the decent and affordable signature spells. And if she's ahorse, I'll try death's sniper spell. Less effective against characters with higher LD, but very useful against war machines.

[marcopollo]

Here's how I view the investment in the sorceress.
1) A scroll is almost a must -- so you need a scroll carrier. So atleast one mage for sure (lv 1 scroll caddy).
2) The points you save from investing in a lv 4 kitted out ~350 pts.
3) A min scroll caddy is around 100 pts. So to reduce your magic investment from 350 to 100 is about 250 pts.

What can you get for 250 pts (non core). One big-ish unit of CoK, Exec's, BG, etc.

So instead of a lv 4 caster you get an extra unit of capable size and durability. So, will you get eqivalent effect for the trade-off?
Yes and no.

Yes because you remove a fragile 3 wound model for 7 CoK wounds, 20 WE wounds, etc. Yes because you remove one crappy attack for X# of exec attacks.

No because now your opponent has free reign to prioritize his spells in a more effective way. He can apply the right kind of magic pressure at the right moments more consistently. When those extra CoK that you got come into play, he can mitigate their effect by buffing or hexing with relative impunity. At other times when other threats are present, he can more easily mitigate those threats in the same way.

A savy general would be able to chaff what needs to be chaffed and pick apart the army piecemeal.

[TheGrayMist]

In games recently I have been taking the book of ashur on my lvl 4. I've also started taking dark magic and putting her on horse. I consider dark magic to be an average lore but what makes it good is the extra +1 to cast. So she's casting on a +6 and dispelling on a +5. Over 12-18 spells, that starts to add up.

I'm finding that my need for a scroll is reduced considerably. I like running a lvl 4 in a unit of warlocks with MR2 giving 2++ vs spell damage. With this build I find I just throw less dice at things. It means you're 2-dicing most spells except for your big ones (that's 3 dice lol) and it really makes your opponent choose.

It's a solid investment of points, yes, but if you're going to take magic, you may as well get some value from it. In the last game I played for example, my opponent held back his dice for Black Horror and let the others through which was perfect. Suddenly your enemy is wounding on 5's and 6's against T3 low armour elves. I also love metal, I find it extremely useful with this build because you can still reliably 2-dice most spells.

I also find that the extra point from the book means I can reliably dispel on less dice over 3 or 4 spells coming at me. That is an extra 3 or 4 points I don't have to make up in dice. I don't find the same thing as others where they either make it or not by a large margin. I have found that this build can reliably handle the magic phase, with or without support from warlocks. It's hard for opponents to dispel starting with +6 to cast and then dispelling tends to require one less dice every couple of spells so the dice last longer. If the opponent on has a level 2, you just dominate the phase.

I don't worry about miscasts either. Our whole army is a glass cannon, we hit hard and take damage with intensity. Miscasts are the same and if I can choose to throw 2 or 4 dice to get a spell off, I'm going to miscast less on 2.

With the big spells, people tend to 6-dice them anyway and a scroll is useless against irresistible force. Nonetheless, +5 gets you a point ahead and any advantage is good in my book. I HAVE often dispelled by a single point... too often probably.

For me a level 4 with book beats a scroll, gives you a wizard that is a serious contender, and makes magic a real threat that must be dealt with.

[marcopollo]

I find the book of ashur makes me nervous about choosing the number of dice to use in dispel rolls. I don't want to lose concentration on a close call so will usually adjust the dice used to dispel so that the odds are in my favor for the most important spell -(although this is not always the case). Used properly, a dispel scroll can negate 4-6 dice in one single magic phase. For 25 pts (compared to 70 for the book) and the certainty of shutting down one magic phase, the scroll is very good value compared to the book of ashur, IMO. In a Swedish comped environment, the scroll is comped more heavily than the book of ashur, and your mage is safer from death lore as your opponent will take a massive comp hit for using it. So in that environment, I will invest in the book for (a)sure.

[TheGrayMist]

I see what you did there

[Blickwither]

I haven't played many games with my DE yet... I seem to have developed an aversion to playing without a fully painted army, so its going to be a while before I get there although it is on the way...

However, my lists have x2 Doomfire Warlocks and a Lvl4 on Shadow, since I intend to use her to debuff whilst the Doomfires offer the magic offense.

I'm one of those who doesn't swear by a dispel scroll. One use items are inefficient IMO.

If I was just going to take a Lvl2, it would be Lvl2 on Dark Magic with tome of Furion, so I can select Word of Pain and drop anything else for Doombolt. Those are the only two spells I think are really worth it, and their casting values are pretty good(+ Hekarti's blessing means she's casting like a Lvl3). But with two doombolts already in the Warlocks, I don't really need a third...

[Cicciuz]

I think here we are not considering our opponents as well. against some races a single spell can blow away their entire army (purple sun or black horror against elves)

BTW I use a Lot Morathi and she rocks! you can have up to +7 (or +8 if you are using Dark Magic) that means you cast a lot of spells per phase. Plus if you use power of darkness on her she has 2++ ward safe that means another couple of power dice here... not to mention life leeching (she has LD 10!) on a low Ld model.
on top of this you can change your lore based on your opponent, what do you need more?

[Vulcan]

Oh, yes, Morathi is a VERY good deal for her price. Figure up the cost of a L4 on Dark Peggy with a 4+ ward and you're something like 80% of the way to her cost. And she adds a LOT of nice bonuses for those points.

[marcopollo]

Problem with Morathi ... no dispel scroll. So you need a scroll caddy or you go without one. Also, she is very heavily comped under the Swedish system (-70). Don't get me wrong, she is an excellent addition, but I see her as more of a crutch. She is a good place to start when beginning with dark elves. You really get a feel for dark, death, and shadow magic and it's synergies with the army in general.

[Vulcan]

No argument there.

But at least she's less of a crutch than Nagash....