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WoC double disclords 
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Black Guard

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:34 pm
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Hello!

Looked through the draiich articles adressing tactics vs WoC, but those mostly included how to handle skullcrushers and chimeraes and whatnot. To me, with the introduction of 50% lords/heroes, the meta has changed to a more "character hammer" approach. This means that most people leave their crushers and chimeras behind (well, they do have their place in lists still :P) and go for double of even tripple tzeentch lords on discs with 3++ and 4++ saves toting GW´s for S7 :) How do you guys tackle these highly mobile and hardhitting threats? I have some ideas:

1. Static combat res. Playing with 2-3 blocks of infantry, the disclord cant flubb a lot in order to lose combat. But if 2 or god forbid, 3 disclords get into the same unit - then its a different story.

2. Bolt throwers. Do you guys shoot single or multiple shots at disclords? Single bolts has the benefit of discarding at least the mundane set of armour.

3. Lore of metal. That is a lore that I´ve started using lately. If the disclord leaves his fireprotection at home, then seering doom is well worth casting at him. Some wounds should slip through, even with a 3++ save.

4. Dont bother, kill everything else in his list! :D

Btw, are they immune to KB? They are flying cav right?

I should mention that I play in a comped environment (swedish comp) and that makes some choices less frequent, lore of death for example. Thankfully that also means no 3++ re-rolling 1´s either :P


Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:24 pm
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Beastmaster
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this is exactly the problem i've had recently, but my problem also has a crown of command and the re-rolling 1s.

frankly i think it's a disgrace and it has no place in wargaming. the damn thing is literally almost unkillable. the best idea i've had is this:

dreadlord on pegasus with: glittering scales, featherfoe torc, pidgeon plucker pendant, and fencers blades. you chase the little bugger until you make contact, and then both of them are tied up for the entire game, just be sure to challenge the warrior.

also, death magic using doom and darkness (do not try to assassinate him) will work wonders when he's attacking a larger unit and you have static res on your side. but frankly he's not stupid and probably won't do that. for instance, if that thing touches your cold ones, they're all dead, without question. so stick your 'slugger the boxing hugger' in front of your lines, and attempt to charge him as he tries to get in range of your juicy stuff. sit him in front of the cold ones, for example.

these are my thoughts on dealing with one, no idea about two.


Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:46 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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He's a pain but certainly not the worst thing I've ever seen.

The disk is a war beast so he is considered "cavalry" and thus can be Killing Blow'd (though I wouldn't recommend it).

He has to generate active combat resolution or he breaks from combat. So he's not very good against ranked up elves. He'll also suffer from any spells that puts him at a minus to hit.

Do you play an End Times list? If so, high magic is your friend. Destroy almost any of his items and he's in trouble.

Tie him up with a much cheaper character and watch him cry. Lore of life will keep that fight going on indefinitely.

Doom and Darkness and hit him with a terror causer. Like a Kharibdyss to make him re-roll that whopping ld 6.

Word of Pain or Shroud of Despair ruin their days.

There are lots of answers for everything.

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Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:33 pm
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Beastmaster
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what's the worst thing you've ever seen?


Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:01 am
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Executioner

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toots wrote:
what's the worst thing you've ever seen?


The druchii army book entry entitled "Black Ark Fleetmaster"

Magic will help like Phierlihy said but also consider test or die spells or final trans, on the face of it, at the end of the day a 1 in 6 chance of being dead with no ward saves is actually numerically quite good against these guys, it also puts massive pressure on your opponent in the magic phase. Do they take a chance and let it thru, probably not so you can draŵ out the dispel dice to then get something else worthwhile off (searing doom into the DP or skullcrushers for example)
Soulblight and dwellers too is more likely to kill him but needs two spells at once same as miasma/word of pain with pit of shade/purple sun


Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:58 am
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Black Guard

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:34 pm
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No end times lists for me so high magic is not an option :) I also thought about final transmuntation, especiallty if there is no better target for it. My brother will face off against this on sunday with a infantry based HE list, so we´ll see how he does.

Guess I better castle up with my units and force him into combat with my infantry units then :P


Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:25 am
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Corsair

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:46 pm
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Mikael.k wrote:
Hello!
How do you guys tackle these highly mobile and hardhitting threats?
it is no problem to kill him in combat actually
dragonlord with OTC/1+ rerollable giant blade etc.
dark elves characters are fine in one to one even against tooled Nurgle DPs

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Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:39 am
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Black Guard

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And here I´ve started playing with a level 4 instead of a dreadlord. Well, I´ll give it a go before going back. I guess "fight fire with fire" applies on this one then :)


Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:43 am
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Corsair

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Mikael.k wrote:
And here I´ve started playing with a level 4 instead of a dreadlord. Well, I´ll give it a go before going back. I guess "fight fire with fire" applies on this one then :)

dude, you can have both ;)

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Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:09 am
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are you in possession of a calculator? it is a massive problem to kill him (we're talking about the re-rollable 3++ man) in combat, and i wouldn't dream of attempting it. because he's got 5 strength 7 attacks at a higher weapon skill than you most likely (your dreadlord will be a deadlord before you know it) if you want to direct a disproportionate amount of your magic resources at protecting units he's in combat with, then yeah maybe that's an idea. maybe final transmutation is an idea, but who knows whether you'll get that spell.

seriously, if you know he's coming (the crown of command man), use my dr octopus build and ensare him for the entire game. and if you charge then cast doom and darkness to perhaps win by 1 and then run him down when he has to roll on a stubborn 6. my dr octopus build will receive about 0.13 wounds per combat round, so can tie the discman up for an entire game!

having said that, see how you get on with some of the other approaches.

anglais wrote:
Mikael.k wrote:
Hello!
How do you guys tackle these highly mobile and hardhitting threats?
it is no problem to kill him in combat actually
dragonlord with OTC/1+ rerollable giant blade etc.
dark elves characters are fine in one to one even against tooled Nurgle DPs


Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:22 pm
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Executioner

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OTS is a must have item with one of your killy characters. OTS makes even 3++ unreliable.

Since they can be killing blowed, assassins with KB, OTS and ahw/SoAH hiding in your units can make your opponent to think twice where to commit his disc turds.

I have only faced single disc turd at the time, maybe coupled with Daemon prince. I think that our Dreadlords with high S and OTS have good chance of winning the duel with those over tough disc lords. I have had my dread lord equipped with gw, OTS and Black amulet to kill that kind of discturd twice now. I guess standard Giant blade OTS DL can hurt them too, but is quite vulnerable to return attacks. Lore of Beasts really helps boosting your S and A to insane amounts to squash those tin can turds.

I know that even these characters dont have good chances, especially in long fights. But KB + OTS and BA + OTS combinations can end those fights fast. Usually I fear my opponents DP more, since he is lot harder to tie down, can cast nasty spells and usually has OTS himself. DP can be shot by bolters though.


Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:36 pm
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toots wrote:
are you in possession of a calculator? it is a massive problem to kill him (we're talking about the re-rollable 3++ man) in combat, and i wouldn't dream of attempting it. because he's got 5 strength 7 attacks at a higher weapon skill than you most likely (your dreadlord will be a deadlord before you know it) if you want to direct a disproportionate amount of your magic resources at protecting units he's in combat with, then yeah maybe that's an idea. maybe final transmutation is an idea, but who knows whether you'll get that spell.

seriously, if you know he's coming (the crown of command man), use my dr octopus build and ensare him for the entire game. and if you charge then cast doom and darkness to perhaps win by 1 and then run him down when he has to roll on a stubborn 6. my dr octopus build will receive about 0.13 wounds per combat round, so can tie the discman up for an entire game!

having said that, see how you get on with some of the other approaches.
man, you have your experience, I have mine. He needs to fail 3 saves, that's it. if he has crown, he does not have OTC. if he has str 7 then he has a great weapon, which again means that he strikes after you. if you want to discuss statistics, disk makes nothing. 5 str7 attacks is about 1 wound. your 4 attacks is a bit less than 1 wound. but your round is before his.
do not get me wrong, he is a strong char. He still will think twice before charging his best model into your best model.

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Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:01 pm
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Black Guard

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I know that I can have both a level 4 and a dreadlord, but in comped environments its not a given. Still, I liked Ajattaros build with black amulet, OTS and GW. With a seadragon cloak and a dark steed he comps -18, -21 on a peg. That I can actually live with :) Assassins are really cheap in swedish comp so deffinetly has a place in comped lists. Some good ideas here. Seems like im not the only one with this "disc" problem :D


Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:15 pm
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Executioner

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No one is safe from that fast moving cancerball. If you cant kill him, give him some bad medicine and hex the hell out of him. Heavens hexes combo nicely on this guy, and converge helps our DL. Shadow lore is great too.


Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:53 pm
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Black Guard

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Actually, I made room for the suggested dreadlord in my list! :D So now I have that, level 4 metal, 2xbolters and lots of infantry to get stuck in :)


Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:07 pm
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Executioner

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Mikael.k wrote:
Actually, I made room for the suggested dreadlord in my list! :D So now I have that, level 4 metal, 2xbolters and lots of infantry to get stuck in :)


Remember to include dragon helm on him too for 1+ armour, you wont need shield. Metal will work well against WoC and to help out your DL! Good luck, I hope you take your opponent by surprise


Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:35 pm
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Black Guard

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Ajattaro wrote:
Mikael.k wrote:
Actually, I made room for the suggested dreadlord in my list! :D So now I have that, level 4 metal, 2xbolters and lots of infantry to get stuck in :)


Remember to include dragon helm on him too for 1+ armour, you wont need shield. Metal will work well against WoC and to help out your DL! Good luck, I hope you take your opponent by surprise


Yup, the dragonhelm is in there. Quite like that build :)


Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:32 pm
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Beastmaster
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so i took the time to work out a few spell scenarios! enchanted blades, soulblight and word of pain. i think the results below show that it's not possible to kill him before he kills your dreadlord without a buggerload of magical backup.

turns out you can kill him if you repeatedly cast the same spell on this combat, but who knows whether you'll be able to get the spells though... essentially: if you can't get word of pain through, cast soulblight as it's an equaliser. and who knows what spells he'll be casting to hasten our protagonist's demise?! :(

assumptions:
dreadlord (DE) with greatweapon, OTS, black amulet and dragon helm. 1+ save, 4++ ward
discman (CW) with greatweapon, 3++ save re-rolling 1s, crown of command and dragon helm. 2+ save

results are wounds done to the opponent per combat round (so a high number is better)

normal scenario:
DE: 0.653
CW: 0.924


soulblight on CW:
DE: 0.662
CW: 0.694


enchanted blades on DE:
DE: 0.883
CW: 0.924


boosted WoP on CW, rolling a 1:
DE: 0.518
CW: 0.521

boosted WoP on CW, rolling a 2:
DE: 0.552
CW: 0.277

boosted WoP on CW, rolling a 3:
DE: 0.495
CW: 0.104


please let me know your thoughts! i seriously hate that character


Last edited by toots on Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:23 pm
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Executioner

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I must admit that two times I've killed that disc lord havent been fair fights. First time he was already wounded once and I got beasts magic off totally facerolling him. Second time I got lucky with dice and got some debuff off. I was lucky with my BA anyway.

I tend to use Beasts magic, since it has lots of good combat buffs, also for this match up. Coupled with soulblight from warlocks CW player has lots of spells to dispel, so getting 1-2 spells through is not problem if everything goes by averages.

I know that numbers dont favour us against that douchebag, but luckily we have more ways of affecting combat with him than they do. And luckily I dont see a lot of 3++ turd eye combos, since its usually comped in about every competetive scene I play in..

Edit. Of yes, lore of Heavens have some good spells for this match up too. And remember, usually that douchebag has S4 flaming breath weapon too to help him clear regenerators.


Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:01 pm
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Black Guard

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Well, you should do the math without the third eye and crown of command. In swedish comp, there is no way one can get him through the comp. Still, its intresting to see that math behind all this :)


Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:10 pm
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My standard Dreadlord build has a re-rollable 1+/4++ and costs me 269 points. Statistically he will hold up the 350ish point disk-lord all game and that, for me, is a win.

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Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:26 am
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Corsair

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toots wrote:
please let me know your thoughts! i seriously hate that character

your assumption is not the best one imo. rerolls are really important in this fight. Dragon brings a lot.
second - you have the upper hand with magic, so yes, some buffs should be in. especially souldblight.
third - you can feed him for the whole game. and, as a bonus, you have RBTs, which needs just one lucky shot.

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Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:28 am
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Phierlihy wrote:
My standard Dreadlord build has a re-rollable 1+/4++ and costs me 269 points. Statistically he will hold up the 350ish point disk-lord all game and that, for me, is a win.


ok so i think i've proved that without constant magic support, our protagonist is doomed. let's try it with armour of 4++ ward save, dawnstone, and NOT the OTS this time (as we aren't trying to kill him now). 1+ armour save which we can re-roll.

CW still has third eye and a great weapon.


no magic cast:
DE: 0.345
CW: 0.616

ok yeah, so unsurprisingly we're receiving 2/3 of the wounds previously, due to the addition of that re-roll at a 5+ because of the S7 attacks coming in. 3/0.616 = 4.86 combat rounds, so 2 and a half turns. so if it kicks off in turn 3, then you may survive until the end without magic support.

trying it with soulblight:
DE: 0.431
CW: 0.347

ok so yay! we're edging it. and WoP will have a massive effect. i agree with Phierlihy that just taking the hits is the best way to go. my glittering scales build will admit something like 0.1 wounds per turn, but he's only got a 3+ save with no ward against non-flying stuff, so not a great idea.

but my second brainwave was to give our protagonist the terrifying mask of EE! and cast doom and darkness on the little bugger. a charge in the rear of the CW with some harpies when a challenge is occurring, and the -3 to his stubborn check has a 58% chance of failing and giving us a chance to run him down with two flyers. this is not a bad idea in general if we have that spell and a flying, terrifying dreadlord who's nigh-on impossible to kill! 1/6 chance of him failing his fear test every combat round too and dropping to WS 1 also. :mrgreen:


Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:58 pm
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anglais wrote:
toots wrote:
please let me know your thoughts! i seriously hate that character

your assumption is not the best one imo. rerolls are really important in this fight. Dragon brings a lot.
second - you have the upper hand with magic, so yes, some buffs should be in. especially souldblight.
third - you can feed him for the whole game. and, as a bonus, you have RBTs, which needs just one lucky shot.


your second point i don't agree with - if the opponent takes metal magic and casts enchanted blades for instance, then our protagonist is done for. CW hits on a 2+ and our armour save will be 6+ re-rollable. no chance in hell will we live from this combat!

your third point would be valid if he was on foot, but he's not. discman picks his own fights and he's not stupid.

your point about RBTs is true in that you need one 'lucky shot' - but when you actually work it out, you've a 7.4% chance of wounding him (long range), and then obviously a 2.5% chance of killing him with one shot. frankly that sounds like a terrible waste of bolts. i'd rather shoot the damn chimera.


anyway, you're all making me feel like a proper keyboard warrior now!!!! good to have the debate though, thanks to all those who are contributing. frankly i think i have alighted upon the best all-round solution, which is basically Phierlihy's idea. but with the mask of EEEE! and some doom & darkness to scare him away!


Last edited by toots on Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:10 pm
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Executioner

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Hugging him and taking the punch is most reliable way indeed, and its win for us if you can tie him, but I really want to kill him if I engage, because tying him does not have high reward and it can end up badly easier for us than him.

I also want to take overall tournament viable builds. Sure unkillable dreadlord is immortal, but otherwose he is super expensive pegmaster who sucks in grinds.

Also you should consider Beasts magic. It has 4 spells that affect outcome. If you get Savage beast off you have honestly good chances of killing that douchebaglord in one round, especially in two rounds.

RBTs are relly not good answer like anglais said. WoC has so many threats so you have to kill what you can and dont waste turns of good shooting. About multiple threats too, I wouldn't count on flanking and breaking him. WoC has lots of mobile threats that our units are occupied dealing with. We control movement and the game early turns, but late might be in WoC players hand when he has advanced and chaff is pretty much dead from both sides. With multiple mobile units he can flank us as well in long fights, and thats bad since we are on loosing side without stubborn.


Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:11 pm
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