So we are down to talking about what the best delievery system is for our little shroud bomb here I will want to try this combination in a setup, that is for sure!
I would also lean toward a regular sorcerer either on a peg for movability and with some ward protection... for peg a talisman of preservation or as suggested with the warlocks and give her a Obsidian Amulet is a idea I like as well. To ensure we are getting the shroud of despair, the tome of furion would be the best option, doesn't leave much for defense though.
I trying with sorc lvl 2, peg, tome of furion, opal amulet
Walk in the light and live not in fear. For We are brothers, our blood ligates us and holds us to our deeds.
Another important aspect is ofcourse to lure the enemy to concentrate his forces instead of spreading out to maximise the Shroud bubble. What would be good ways to lure him into this ?
Mmh... well deploying close to eachother would be a good way. If you spread out your deployment your opponent is very likely to do so aswell. So by deploying your big targets in close vicinity to eachother could force him to do the same.
Maybe using your RBTs to secure lanes might have the same effect.
I don't really see the added benefit of the dark pegasus over just normal steed. Yes it does fly but then again you save a bucket load of points by mounting the level 2 on dark steed. And since you are almost forced to take tome of furion you would also get the look out sir! -rolls if you are running dark riders or warlocks (or even cold one knights) for the additional protection. I think the M9 with just the horse should give you enough movement for her. Otherwise the opal amulet seems nice if you really want to go with it.
The DP allows you to simply drop her in the center of your opponents army instead of having to run through it. Terrain also doesnt play a roll anymore so no Dangerous Terrain checks. Also you always gain +1T and on a lv1/2 a awound aswell. Sure it costs more points, but for good reason
One thing I just now noticed now that I was reading the spell description again and thinking about what would be the other optimal spell from the lore. The lore attribute says that any hex targeting an enemy unit and casting containing doubles or triples will affect the additional hits. What I didn't notice before and I don't think it was brought up earlier in this thread is that Shroud says that it targets all the units within the 12". So the Shroud will activate the lore attribute. I don't think that this is that huge but with lucky rolls you could even cause a panic check right of from the spell!
But how can rely on getting shroud trough at the right time? Relying on chaining spells is stupid right, but do we have any other choice than casting other intimidating spells as barrier? Still it could be unlikely that you get the one spell you want through. I guess that Death is best combined with shroud, since they both hit hard at same targets.
Also, what kind of armies have you used this shroud against? Im still puzzled if this is tournament viable tactic. I hope it is. Pretty many tough tourney armies have either ItP or really strong Ld control and high base Ld, but this what Shroud can shatter, especially with Death. Taking the heart of enemy army out with this spell can win you big.
One thing that bothers me in the lists I made yesterday was that they didnt include enough bulk to have formidable combat threat.
Trying to spell combo is a recipe for disaster. You need to work with as many Innate Ld tests as possible. And no army is 100% ItP. If the most dangeroys block you face is ItP, then make everything around it panic. Even ItP units need to do a Ld check to Reform, March or Break tests. Shroud is a spell that can be slapped on like any other debuff, yet once you start to consider all phases and every Ld check an enemy needs to take until it runs out it rly starts to shine
Searinox Nagharha wrote:Trying to spell combo is a recipe for disaster. You need to work with as many Innate Ld tests as possible. And no army is 100% ItP. If the most dangeroys block you face is ItP, then make everything around it panic. Even ItP units need to do a Ld check to Reform, March or Break tests. Shroud is a spell that can be slapped on like any other debuff, yet once you start to consider all phases and every Ld check an enemy needs to take until it runs out it rly starts to shine
Actually Deamons of Chaos and all three Undead armies are all completely Immune to Psychology. Warriors of Chaos are almost immune. So the spell is not the ultimate panacea for winning. However against those armies, I instead focus on Word of Pain so the lore still works pretty well for me.
I don't think that the spell is complete dud against DoC and undead armies. As the spell also prevents opponent from using inspiring presence and BSB rerolls you can do a good number of wounds due to instability or crumble against them. Granted you will need to win the combat first.
Quick Shroud related question: If both General and BSB are in a unit affected by shroud, the unit cannot use BSB reroll or Generals IP even if they are inside the unit? But the unit still uses highest unmodified Ld (that being generals)?
That is correct. the unit the General is in uses his Ld if its higher. but not the BSB rerolls. Also dont forget that crumble checks are also Ld checks. So if your planning to Assassinate the General its a good time to pop shroud.
Granted ofcourse Shroud isnt the best spell against them. but we have other options for that then
I've put a banner of swiftness on units of CoK's, and bunkered Morathi in them as they march 16" at a time on the ground. This would bring a panic unit close right off the bat and then Morathi marches out behind the lines to cast the SoD. As was mentioned, softer units could be peppered as well during shooting. If one failed test gets through, the cascade will begin, especially against armies like Dwarves that huddle so many units close to each other, and subsequent panics ensue.
Crucial to abusing this spell, remember that if a unit passes ONE panic check in a turn it's proven is fortitude, and doesn't need to take one until the next.
I will playtest against it Dwarfs this saturday. Good thing is that likely his whole army will be in the bubble But ofcourse have to get there alive first and they have basic LD of 9. I will use the Shrine of Slaughter with LVL 4 Life (to keep it alive) and LVL 2 dark with Tome in second rank.
My ideal set up would be the Manticore in combat with a warmachine, Hydra or Cold One Knights with his missile unit and Shrine of Slaughter with his main combat block. First combat with Manticore forcing fear test (with destroying it hopefully forcing several panic tests). If I can reduce the main combat block LD with -4 to a 6 I might win big as Shrine of Slaughter is already ideal combat matchup against Dwarfs (no parry, no rank bonus, 4+ ward save in combat, +1 to hit and wound, I test or STR 4 no armour save hits with models in base contact, -1 LD, Impact Hits etc.)
Morathi takes lore of death exclusively. Gets Doom and Darkness most likely (-3LD). ToF & scroll caddy a level 2 to get SoD. The only problem is getting the LVL2 close enough then :/
Dependable way to get the spells you want. But not to combo them.
I tested the shroud today. You can find the list and some comments of the game here.
However as mentioned in the other topic I feel that SoD gets a bit wasted with level 4 death mage. Yes D&D is really good combo with it but as death is so good overall lore it tends to dominate the whole magic phase. For example against dwarfs that were mentioned earlier: would you rather try to cascade the shroud with some many variables or just throw a purple sun down the poor dwarf players lines and afterwards laugh on your way to the bank?
Also I think the shroud combo/cascade would require quite close combat oriented army to play with. Perhaps knights, witches and some characters on scary mounts would do much better than the avoidance style list that I ran with today.
the best thing I have done with a shroud was pushing block of exes with lvl 4 inside the opposing army. won me 2 games. 5 dice it, 3 sixes, a lot of units affected by attribute, lots of panic checks, that's it. Done this with LM and WE. Slann with LD 4 is a silly thing. another option is to rob Empire knights of HYG and IP. can be easily done as soulblight is devastating for them, and Empire tends to have soft targets like chariots close to the main block. I still do not see shroud as a reliable winning strategy, it is more of the last resort or a lucky roll. I personally prefer to win thorugh maneuver not through magic
I like to win, but not by playing the limit of the rules
anglais wrote:the best thing I have done with a shroud was pushing block of exes with lvl 4 inside the opposing army. won me 2 games. 5 dice it, 3 sixes, a lot of units affected by attribute, lots of panic checks, that's it. Done this with LM and WE. Slann with LD 4 is a silly thing. another option is to rob Empire knights of HYG and IP. can be easily done as soulblight is devastating for them, and Empire tends to have soft targets like chariots close to the main block. I still do not see shroud as a reliable winning strategy, it is more of the last resort or a lucky roll. I personally prefer to win thorugh maneuver not through magic
This is what I want to hear. But how Dark magic has worked for you with SS on foot overall? I guess that big exec block with swiftness banner might one way to go surely. Gotta have miscast and combat protection though. Have you combined with some other lore too? Because I think that Agrem is correct with dominance of Death magic with Shroud. I made a list with lvl4 Death and lvl2 ToF+Terror both on DS, but when I look at list, I think I could just change Terror for lvl4 or drop the whole lvl2 altogether and take CoTmaster instead. Dark gives important augmenting to Death tho, more combat spells and magic missiles..
I'd stick with one or the other. Really combo'ing Magic together is a recipe for disaster. Sure they have nice Sinergy but you'll still have to get the spells you want. by all means try it but with how fickle the Winds of Magic can be I wouldn't rely on it
Searinox Nagharha wrote:I'd stick with one or the other. Really combo'ing Magic together is a recipe for disaster. Sure they have nice Sinergy but you'll still have to get the spells you want. by all means try it but with how fickle the Winds of Magic can be I wouldn't rely on it
I'm not talking about comboing or chaining, but having variety of good spells for every occasion, and preferably multiple at the time. If you really want to get combat spell through for example its good to have 2 soul blights, WoP and PoD at your disposal (and dices for them of course)
Same goes with Shroud. Its good to have D&D and couple sniper spells aimed at BSB/general as a barrage, since opponent does not want any of them getting through.
I think that death does not worth it for Mage on foot. Tried it, Dark lore is more versatile. Worked very good for me. Mage has otc and is basically a dispelled/ word of pain caster. All the rest is done by warlocks. The list was sth like
Supreme Sorceress: Ring of Hotek; Dispel Scroll; The Other Trickster's Shard; Level 4 Wizard; 310 Dreadlord: Giant Blade; Dragonhelm; Dawnstone; Ironcurse Icon; Heavy Armour; Brace of Repeater Handbows; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; General 267
Death Hag: Witchbrew; Battle Standard Bearer (Banner of Swiftness) 155
5 Dark Riders: Repeater Crossbow; Shield 100 25 Witch Elves: Hag; Musician; Standard Bearer (Razor Standard) 350 5 Dark Riders: Repeater Crossbow; Shield 100 5 Dark Riders: Repeater Crossbow; Shield 100
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70 Reaper Bolt Thrower 70 Reaper Bolt Thrower 70 25 Har Ganeth Executioners: Draich-master; Musician; Standard Bearer (Standard of Discipline) 345 Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Searinox Nagharha wrote:Same goes with Shroud. Its good to have D&D and couple sniper spells aimed at BSB/general as a barrage, since opponent does not want any of them getting through.
I think that this is the truth if you do not use warlocks. They are probably the best supporting caster in the game, so 2 units and lvl 4 are more than enough. Taking another caster you are spending 2 many points for something that is very dicy by nature. And not taking warlocks is an option only if they are comped.
I like to win, but not by playing the limit of the rules
Has any consideration been given to overlapping spells? Two casters with the same lore and overlapping spells? Oddly inefficient use of casters, but effective use for spell combo-ing?
Is it worth the investment to get combos off reliably every turn? Or in some extreme cases, WoP(x2) + BW (x2)?
I will want to try this combination in a setup, that is for sure!
