Shroud of Despair strategies

[toots]

chicos,

anybody got any good ideas for using the shroud of despair spell?

i am considering its use - cry of war with a death hag, pegasus master/lord with the terrifying mask of terror-causing. that could do some decent stuff i think! doubtless there's been a thread or two about this most interesting spell...

any thoughts? there are many ways to force our opponent to make leadership tests!!

[Phierlihy]

I have a Shroud of Despair tutorial post in the works but it's coming along slowly. I now believe this is one of the most powerful spells in all of Warhammer but it is likely the most difficult spell in all of Warhammer to use effectively. To understand the best workings of the spell, think about the game phases that follow the casting and the order they fall in to maximize the spell's effects.

[Searinox Nagharha]

Also the targets hou affect and how to trigger Ld checks
Frenzy, Stupidity, Fear, Terror, Reform, Quick Reform, Break Check, Panic
Learn how to exploit these and watch your enemy cower in terror.

One of the Best (atleast Most Fun) Tactics ever is combining Shroud of Despair with the TKs Casket.
Since the enemy is forced to take an Ld check on 3dice and it jumps it can drop your enemies Ld by hilarious amounts with 2 Casts. And since most ppl dont realise the fear of this combo the let it through most of the time

[toots]

well yeah i am very much looking forward to the SHROUD TACTICA! because on paper it looks like it could be a truly excellent spell!

[Lord Drakon]

I agree that Shroud seems to be an awesome untapped possibility for the Druchii. Hope to see some experiences and tactica, in the meantime I will also try to experiment with it. We still have to see a working leadership bomb tournament list on this forum.

My setup will be the following, LVL 2 with Tome of Furion in unit of Sisters of Slaughter with Bloodwrack Shrine. Manticore, Hydra, Cold One Knights + lots of shooting to force leadership tests.

[toots]

my setup shall be: D-Haq w/ Cry of War, Master on Peg w/ terror mask, Cold Ones, Kharibdyss.

may the best leadership bomb win!

[Phierlihy]

Never again will I speak ill of the Lore of Dark magic! I have always been fond of it because it has always been the "druchii" lore. Opponents saw it in the field so rarely they were often struggling to counter it effectively. And while I love the Lore of Death, going forward I have a very viable alternative. Experimentation has discovered a gem hidden in plain site - the Shroud of Despair. My opponents now fear this spell and will even let through Word of Pain in order to save their dice to stop it! It is near useless to cast this spell against armies that are Immune to Psychology but to those who are not, it can break their game! Before I begin, let us assume a Supreme Sorceress is casting and she is highly mobile; I like both the Dark Steed and Dark Pegasus option. Let us also assume our Supreme Sorceress is a level 4 so has +5 to cast meaning she needs to roll a 5 to get the spell off. In desperate times she can throw a single die at it but it should reliably go off with 2 dice. In my opinion, a 10+ to cast a spell where you can remove the General's Inspiring Presence and the Battle Standard Bearer's Hold Your Ground special rules is fair but what I didn't expect is the power that comes from the cumulative effect of lowering a unit's leadership. 

Down in the trenches of the tabletop, I most often see a 2-3 point drop per casting of the spell. To make the most of this spell, we have to understand the turn sequence. So to start, it's cast in your magic phase. And while I'm not going to claim that I have never cast the spell on turn 1, it is much more useful turn 2 onwards. Your mobile caster has hopefully found a position where she can cast and not be charged or hit with a cannon but can still target 2-4 units. Once the spell has gone off, your goal is going to be to cause as many leadership tests as you can! So in your following shooting phase, shoot something that is cursed by the spell and cause a Panic check - ideally something with low leadership. You want that unit to fail that leadership test, break, and run which will let the leadership cascade begin. And if that Panic check causes more Panic checks, so much the better!

Around to the combat phase and hopefully you've charged into something else that either A) you can beat in one round of combat or B) has been cursed by the Shroud of Despair. The one key thing to do: you will want to keep any leadership tests in mind and pick the order you fight your combats carefully! You want to maximize the leadership penalty you are inflicting on your opponent! A Kharybdiss is especially handy here forcing re-rolls of successful leadership tests upon the enemy. He creates a leadership desert against anything he is in base contact with. So is the Cry of War! Every Fear test you can make your opponent take, every break test he fails, every Panic check he is forced to make all add to his leadership penalty. It doesn't really matter if your enemy is Steadfast once you have dropped their Leadership below 7 without a re-roll. They *might* hold but only if they are lucky!

Never underestimate the power of putting fear into your opponent! In his movement phase, he also has to contend with the possibility of swift reforms and march tests potentially lowering his leadership even further. He now has to be concerned if he is not going to be Steadfast if he can not beat you in combat, his units have a very real chance of breaking! And he has a unit or two that's fleeing and if they don't rally, that could potentially lower his leadership too. Hopefully your opponent is going to have to make some VERY hard choices about his charge options and you may find his offensive charge turns into the defensive regrouping of his army quite quickly.

You can hope your opponent miscasts or accidentally drops a rock on his own unit and causes a panic check but it isn't likely so let's move on to the opponent's close combat phase. Even more fear/break/panic/reform tests and maybe making your opponent cry! But because you are not picking the order of combats, you have less control here and hopefully you have set yourself up in a favorable position on your turn. Your opponent typically will fight combats in a way that are most beneficial to him but if he has never or rarely encountered this spell, he may have to switch from maximizing his benefit to minimizing the leadership-damage. Also worth making a note of - if your clever plan was to crash your units into your opponent's chaff unit on your turn, you are going to be fighting whatever you overran into on his turn. Normally this is exactly what you do NOT want to happen because your opponent has the benefit of a magic phase to boost his units. And I think the point is worth emphasizing that unless you are to far behind and losing badly this is purely a move of desperation! However if you've brought enough overwhelming force and can win a combat be even a single point, your opponent is near the maximum leadership penalty this spell can offer and it is fair to say you can break him.

Good times don't last and your next movement phase is where the spell will end. You can take advantage of what's left of the spell by charging a unit with something that causes Terror but lowering your opponent's leadership further at this point is moot.

By getting that initial leadership check or two to fail, your opponent starts to slide, often quickly, into a leadership hole. The key is to try to force a few early fails and let nature take its course. Good luck!

[Searinox Nagharha]

That last Terror Charge isn't to lower his Ld further tho. its to take abuse of your targets already lowered Ld.
With -3/4 Ld the chance if failing that Terror check is real

[Phierlihy]

Good point! That becomes more of a target of opportunity than anything else but it is still a definite advantage so I probably should have added it to my thoughts.

[Lord Drakon]

Note that a LVL 4 with Death combined with LVL 1 Tome of Furion Dark is by far the best magical combo for Shroud of Despair. When you want to focus on Shroud of Despair, Death magic is the way to go.

The LVL 4 can cause -3 LD, very important for forcing the the first LD test (panic or fear test) to fail. They can create Fear and even Terror causing units of any unit (Dark Riders with Terror, hell yeah) making it possible to route that far stubborn unit by just charging with your Dark Riders after his army started to flee? Lastly they can snipe any characters (especially BSB and General) leaving the enemy army criple and unable to rally his devastated army on the rout.

You can even make the Sorceress on Pegasus (+ Tome of Furion) cause Terror, how fun it must be that after she casted Shroud which led to a lot of routs, that last standing horde or bus with enemy general etc is charged by your LVL 1 while - 6 LD for testing Terror tests and is caught by the LVL 1!

[Ajattaro]

Really sneaky techs Lord Drakon! I was just coming to bring up here how you get the Shroud off the right moment? D&D is spell to go for of course, but there is not much other spells that threaten enemies Ld except Iceshard blizzard, which is not used too often...

[T.D.]

Never again will I speak ill of the Lore of Dark magic! I have always been fond of it because it has always been the "druchii" lore. Opponents saw it in the field so rarely they were often struggling to counter it effectively. And while I love the Lore of Death, going forward I have a very viable alternative. Experimentation has discovered a gem hidden in plain site - the Shroud of Despair. My opponents now fear this spell and will even let through Word of Pain in order to save their dice to stop it! It is near useless to cast this spell against armies that are Immune to Psychology but to those who are not, it can break their game! Before I begin, let us assume a Supreme Sorceress is casting and she is highly mobile; I like both the Dark Steed and Dark Pegasus option. Let us also assume our Supreme Sorceress is a level 4 so has +5 to cast meaning she needs to roll a 5 to get the spell off. In desperate times she can throw a single die at it but it should reliably go off with 2 dice. In my opinion, a 10+ to cast a spell where you can remove the General's Inspiring Presence and the Battle Standard Bearer's Hold Your Ground special rules is fair but what I didn't expect is the power that comes from the cumulative effect of lowering a unit's leadership. 

Down in the trenches of the tabletop, I most often see a 2-3 point drop per casting of the spell. To make the most of this spell, we have to understand the turn sequence. So to start, it's cast in your magic phase. And while I'm not going to claim that I have never cast the spell on turn 1, it is much more useful turn 2 onwards. Your mobile caster has hopefully found a position where she can cast and not be charged or hit with a cannon but can still target 2-4 units. Once the spell has gone off, your goal is going to be to cause as many leadership tests as you can! So in your following shooting phase, shoot something that is cursed by the spell and cause a Panic check - ideally something with low leadership. You want that unit to fail that leadership test, break, and run which will let the leadership cascade begin. And if that Panic check causes more Panic checks, so much the better!

Around to the combat phase and hopefully you've charged into something else that either A) you can beat in one round of combat or B) has been cursed by the Shroud of Despair. The one key thing to do: you will want to keep any leadership tests in mind and pick the order you fight your combats carefully! You want to maximize the leadership penalty you are inflicting on your opponent! A Kharybdiss is especially handy here forcing re-rolls of successful leadership tests upon the enemy. He creates a leadership desert against anything he is in base contact with. So is the Cry of War! Every Fear test you can make your opponent take, every break test he fails, every Panic check he is forced to make all add to his leadership penalty. It doesn't really matter if your enemy is Steadfast once you have dropped their Leadership below 7 without a re-roll. They *might* hold but only if they are lucky!

Never underestimate the power of putting fear into your opponent! In his movement phase, he also has to contend with the possibility of swift reforms and march tests potentially lowering his leadership even further. He now has to be concerned if he is not going to be Steadfast if he can not beat you in combat, his units have a very real chance of breaking! And he has a unit or two that's fleeing and if they don't rally, that could potentially lower his leadership too. Hopefully your opponent is going to have to make some VERY hard choices about his charge options and you may find his offensive charge turns into the defensive regrouping of his army quite quickly.

You can hope your opponent miscasts or accidentally drops a rock on his own unit and causes a panic check but it isn't likely so let's move on to the opponent's close combat phase. Even more fear/break/panic/reform tests and maybe making your opponent cry! But because you are not picking the order of combats, you have less control here and hopefully you have set yourself up in a favorable position on your turn. Your opponent typically will fight combats in a way that are most beneficial to him but if he has never or rarely encountered this spell, he may have to switch from maximizing his benefit to minimizing the leadership-damage. Also worth making a note of - if your clever plan was to crash your units into your opponent's chaff unit on your turn, you are going to be fighting whatever you overran into on his turn. Normally this is exactly what you do NOT want to happen because your opponent has the benefit of a magic phase to boost his units. And I think the point is worth emphasizing that unless you are to far behind and losing badly this is purely a move of desperation! However if you've brought enough overwhelming force and can win a combat be even a single point, your opponent is near the maximum leadership penalty this spell can offer and it is fair to say you can break him.

Good times don't last and your next movement phase is where the spell will end. You can take advantage of what's left of the spell by charging a unit with something that causes Terror but lowering your opponent's leadership further at this point is moot.

By getting that initial leadership check or two to fail, your opponent starts to slide, often quickly, into a leadership hole. The key is to try to force a few early fails and let nature take its course. Good luck!

This post needs a soundtrack:



Thanks for the detailed write up

[Searinox Nagharha]

that lvl1 will be very vulnerable tho. and with a tactic that obvious she'll get focused from the get go

@T.D.
I'm gonna have to get that on my phone for the next time i screw some1 over with shroud xD

[T.D.]

@T.D.
I'm gonna have to get that on my phone for the next time i screw some1 over with shroud xD

[Clockwork]

So, I've been thinking a lot about Dark Magic recently. I've not been totally sold on Metal due to the high casting values, and I'd rather avoid Shadow, but Dark has a lot of synergy with Warlocks (it gives redundancy through multiple Doombolts, or Soulblight and Word of Pain being must-stop combat buffs, and the +1 means that the SS can cast on fewer dice so the Warlocks have more for themselves.)

I note above that you suggest the SS needs to be mounted in order to make Shroud work, presumably because of the range. Is that true of the whole lore?

[T.D.]

I note above that you suggest the SS needs to be mounted in order to make Shroud work, presumably because of the range. Is that true of the whole lore?

POD - N/A

Doombolt - 18

Chillwind - 24

WoP - 24

Bladewind - 24

Shroud - 12

Soul Stealer - 18/36

Horror - AD x Caster Level

-> Mounted makes sense to get the best out of the Lore.

[jeffman]

Doombolt is just 18" right? Even boosted

[Ajattaro]

that lvl1 will be very vulnerable tho. and with a tactic that obvious she'll get focused

That is true. With terror mask its just T4 W3 to keep her alive, and she is quite expensive on pegasus whether she is Lvl 1/2, I dont know if peg is too big investment on lvl1. Too bad you cant get even 5++ on her. Im thinking of running her with Opal amulet to get at least good ward save at least once. Rest is up to good positioning and target saturation. I would put her gladly in the line of fire instead of more expensive characters..

[Searinox Nagharha]

true, boosted it only turns into 4D6 instead of 2D6

but yeah because of the relative short range of the lore a mobile SS would be prefered. You can threaten alot more of your opponents army that way.

@Atjattaro
in the dual comp with my made I ran her with the Tome of Furion and Opal Amulet, you need to be carefull with her and hid her well, then just drop her like a small atomic bomb right dead center in your opponents army.

quick not; don't ever forget the Lore attribute. you might think its useless untill it takes out a Siege engine and forces the 2 next to it to make a Panic check which they both fail and thus result in a -2 Ld for the rest of the units under the Shroud

[Clockwork]

-> Mounted makes sense to get the best out of the Lore.

That's what I figure. I just hate how that then dictates the rest of the list (ie a Warlock bunker).

[Ajattaro]

-> Mounted makes sense to get the best out of the Lore.

That's what I figure. I just hate how that then dictates the rest of the list (ie a Warlock bunker).

I usually run DR bunker with crossbows, since its core and makes more sense staying out of combat

[T.D.]

Doombolt is just 18" right? Even boosted

Yeah, sorry. I read 24+ (boosted casting value) as 24". Updated.

[T.D.]

-> Mounted makes sense to get the best out of the Lore.

That's what I figure. I just hate how that then dictates the rest of the list (ie a Warlock bunker).

In a clash of infantry lists, a bunkered Sorceress would work as well. For instance, a Sorc pushed into the second rank of a Shrine of Slaughter (with a nearby K-Beast on standby ).

Only problem would be if your enemy goes full mobile/avoidance; then our littl missy would lack targets for her Dark Sorcerous Rage


...the more I think about it, the more Dark really suits a Cloak/Obsidian Trinket Pegasus rider; maximum range and maneuverability with a 360 turn circle

[Phierlihy]

My magic phase analysis is that most races (read everyone but undead armies) successfully cast 0.9 spells per phase. That is an average - sometimes you get three spells off in a phase and sometimes your wizard is dead on turn 1. So IMHO needing to chain spells is the absolute worst tactic anyone can rely on. Too often it is a recipe for failure. Morathi, in this regard, is THE BEST WIZARD IN WARHAMMER. With an average of +8 to cast from the Lore of Dark Magic, the only thing she should fear is a cannonball but can still cast three spells per turn on average. If you need to chain spells, make one of your wizards Morathi to increase your odds of success.

[toots]

agree completely with Philly, chaining spells sounds awesome but your opponent only needs to dispel one to neuter this amazing effect that's going to happen. which they can do relatively easily unless you trick them into dispelling a decoy spell!

and i also agree with T.D. re the mobile sorceress build - hence why i'm converting a dark steed-riding, CoT and obsidian trinket wearing sorceress!