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Such a thing is not possible. I direct you to the BRB section regarding spell selection.

Also with 6 Rollable Spells and 2 Signature Spells you'll need to bring 3 lv 3's or 2 lv4's with a lv3 to get there.

So sorry m8 but not possible

Clockwork wrote:Where does the sorceress go in that list?

This is thr biggest problem I'm having with foot lists.

my answer to this is not having a dedicated bunker. as it makes sorceress extremely expensive.
thus she goes with exes. Hag goes with exes most of the time in order to give them ItP if I am not playing against DoC, Skaven or Vampires. Lord has options, but by default he is with exes most of time to benefit from witch brew, OTC and different ini steps.

my experience is that people just cannot kill the sorc, as lord clears chaff and when in HtH they have other things to bother about. I call this tanking via damage.

tehnico wrote:Has any consideration been given to overlapping spells? Two casters with the same lore and overlapping spells? Oddly inefficient use of casters, but effective use for spell combo-ing?

Is it worth the investment to get combos off reliably every turn? Or in some extreme cases, WoP(x2) + BW (x2)?

I took the opportunity to run Morathi and a lv2 death sorceress on a dark stead a few times. I kept them close enough together that I was able to get 2 spirit leeches at ld 10. Usually one would get dispelled but not both. And by the end of the game, I was able to get both off (because their mages were dead).

But, Morathi is comped at -70 and I get alot of cries of cheese with her, so I use a different set-up now.

I threw in a couple of pegmasters and full darkrider core. Very nasty indeed.

Phierlihy wrote:Such a thing is not possible. I direct you to the BRB section regarding spell selection.

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. With two casters there is no provision against overlapping spells, and attempting a spell twice, once with each caster.

IIRC the only spells that you can duplicate are sig spells. So no WoP x2 or Commet x2, but Spirit leach x2 is fine.

Tome of Furion doesn't allow me to double up? We've always understood that it does...?

DE Book wrote:"When the bearer of the Tome of Furion generates spells form the Lore of Dark Magic, she can choose one spell - the rest must be generated following the normal rules."

There is no provision against doubling up a spell that has already been selected by another caster. Or even the same caster. The second point in the BRB uses wording to the effect of 'unless the army book states otherwise..' To me the ToF says plainly I can choose one, and the rest follow the normal rules. This means the one I choose does not follow the BRB 'normal rules' for selection.

Thats a very RAW reading you got going there m8. And I dont think any1 is gonna let that tactic fly.

Searinox Nagharha wrote:Thats a very RAW reading you got going there m8. And I dont think any1 is gonna let that tactic fly.

I've started to ponder this too and I think this deserves a discussion by itself. But in another topic perhaps?

Ajattaro wrote:

Searinox Nagharha wrote:Thats a very RAW reading you got going there m8. And I dont think any1 is gonna let that tactic fly.

I've started to ponder this too and I think this deserves a discussion by itself. But in another topic perhaps?

See Here

and here

From that thread...

Dalamar wrote:It does say that you pick one spell when generating spells, you're not exchanging anything because at that point your sorceress doesn't know any spells yet.

I agree with this too. You only get to choose the spell first, then roll. This condition helps satisfy the 'wizard cannot know doubles' criteria. This interpretation still allows for the following though. A level 4 generates spells from the Dark Lore. Among them, Word of Pain. A second level 2 with the ToF now generates. Before she rolls, she chooses Word of Pain with the ToF. And her second spell is generated randomly as stated in the BRB.

I know it's RAW. But there is no limitation to the choice as described in the ToF description. The BRB specifically states "If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question." The spell in question here being WoP, which the Dark Elves army book offers no choice limitations. To me there's no burden to prove a negative in this case.

GW normally goes out of their way to offer the simplest and clearest explanation of rules (sometimes to a fault). If there were to be duplication limitations on a magic item that clearly could make it possible, they would state it.

For the record, It's sketchy in practice and hasn't been of a tremendous benefit. Besides, we double (or triple) up on Doombolt without argument. And that's normally more than enough.

thats because Doombolt is a Signature spell. the only way i can see this tactic working at all is if you fill up on magic lvls.
otherwise it can be as RAW as you want since you generated one version normally and the other via the ToF ppl will 'demand' you reroll the first one or pick another spell for it.

tehnico wrote:I agree with this too. You only get to choose the spell first, then roll. This condition helps satisfy the 'wizard cannot know doubles' criteria. This interpretation still allows for the following though. A level 4 generates spells from the Dark Lore. Among them, Word of Pain. A second level 2 with the ToF now generates. Before she rolls, she chooses Word of Pain with the ToF. And her second spell is generated randomly as stated in the BRB.

I know it's RAW. But there is no limitation to the choice as described in the ToF description. The BRB specifically states "If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question." The spell in question here being WoP, which the Dark Elves army book offers no choice limitations. To me there's no burden to prove a negative in this case.

Actually I think that isn't completely RAW. Lvl2 then violates the BRB p.490 spell generation rule, because she HAS choice over the spells, considering the emphasis of choice by BRB rule.

Also that swapping to "spell in question" refers to specifically named spells in spells lores. This is mainly involving lores from old army books that have spell lores before 8th ed. like Lore of Wild from Beasts book, in which you can swap spells tp number 1 spell which is named in rule text. I guess this rule becomes obsolete when there is no old Lores available anymore.

I must have missed all that discussion on ToF before O.o ... Never relly wantedto use it before this thread.

lol i don't have a clue what's going on!

Ajattaro wrote:

tehnico wrote:...I know it's RAW....

Actually I think that isn't completely RAW. Lvl2 then violates the BRB p.490 spell generation rule, because she HAS choice over the spells, considering the emphasis of choice by BRB rule.

I was focused mainly on the examples as proof. But examples don't ever cover all situations and aren't to be taken as rules. After your post I went back and read the initial condition one more time.

Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:

ToF meets this exception exactly. The allowance of spell duplication is limited to any non-random spell generating instance. The 'such as' and everything that follows is completely irrelevant. GW isn't going to list every single actual example in every single army book. IMO ToF allows spell duplication in the simplest RAW and RAI terms.

And if the Dwarf player I play against tries to disagree and enforces a RAW interpretation that requires a specific example as support, I'm not gonna let his gyrocopter ever flee when it breaks from close combat

The only reason I brought up ToF in this thread was to make sure you got Shroud, and it wouldn't be a random luck getting it (My example was on a lvl 2 sorc) I was unaware that there even was a heated debate regarding that magic item elsewhere.

What there is left for me right now is to playtest it, and see how viable it is, and I would love to read more battlereports where it is being used.

Well at the least that debate wasnt here xD
but yeah, if you plan on building your army around SoD then Tome of Furion is a real must

Today shroud of despair reaped another victim, WoC. My unit of spearmen packed full of death hags mowed through tzeentch warriors with BSB on DM. In that phase I got shroud through and was on snake eyes with no re-rolls. Unit breaks and is runned down. The nearby unkillable lord on disc gets -1 to Ld. He goes in to the spearmen, gets challenged out and loses combat by one. He misses his Ld test by one (wooo!) and runs off the board. At this point my opponent conceeds the game. It was evil and it was glorious!

I love it when a missing piece falls into place.

But a side note, spells auto fail on dice total of 1 or 2 (page 32)

Praetorian1979 wrote:I love it when a missing piece falls into place.

But a side note, spells auto fail on dice total of 1 or 2 (page 32)

He sure meant break test needed snake eyes to pass. Oh but how good it feels to see that big cancer ball to die by shroud and some spearmen

Discman is a scumbag! Well done!

Yup, needed snakes for break test