Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Elrithral
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Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Elrithral »

I played a tournament at the weekend using two big blocks of infantry, 30 Executioners and 30 Witches, as well as the standard Dark Riders and Warlocks, and I did quite well, but some good wins were turned into draws because the tournament was running fortitude and one of my 5 fortitude was a banner on a unit of Dark Riders and by the time the Witches got shot to bits or ground down after doing their job I was down to 3 (300 points if you break an opponent, an extra 300 is you remain unbroken).

I'm playing another tournament next weekend and as it stands i'm running the same setup, but I have a few extra points to play with and I was wondering what units might be best to use as an extra banner bunker, or just to cause a few more problems for my opponents so that the Witches can just stream forward and get stuck in.

There were three options I was looking at and i'm torn between going for another punchy unit/some shooting/a decent armour save to avoid getting shot to bits and then acting as a trap for the Witches and Execs. The three units I was looking at were 15 Cold One Knights, 22 Darkshards, 30 Corsairs. I even flirted with the idea of Black Guard, but think I could only manage 20. Any thoughts on which might be my best option?

Fyi, my list was Dreadlord on Peg, Master, 2 x Lvl4 (very magic heavy tournament), 2 x 5 Dark Riders, 30 Witches, 30 Executioners, 5 Warlocks.

Any help appreciated. Cheers.
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Searinox Nagharha
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Searinox Nagharha »

Of those options i think that the Darkshards (with shields) will allow you to keep its fortitude the longest. as its not supposed to be in combat to begin with.
Then most likely the COK because of their 2+ save and they hurt on the charge.
Finally (sadly) the corsairs, their 4+ does up their survivability some but they are still only Elves ;)
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Akholrak
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Akholrak »

Is your Master a BSB? Is he and your Sorceresses' mounted? Darkshards are probably your best bet, as they can do quite well at range and don't need to get stuck in combat. You also have two great combat blocks and your list is low on shooting, so I favour them much more of CoK or Corsairs in this instance.
Sangfroid
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Sangfroid »

2 lots of 15 corsairs with handbows is also useful gives you two fortitude and can harass and aid main combats plus of you put them infront of witches and execs juts flee thru on the first charge, I usually find in most games one or both units survive unless I get bogged down or unlucky and up to 30 shots hitting on 5s anywhere within about 15 inches centre to centre can cause some armies trouble. Laslty they make great units to throw in a building or sacrifice for a redirect often they will last the charge giving you the counter charge (plus get a stand and shoot off)
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Vulcan »

I'm guessing your BSB was with the Witches when they broke then. If your General, BSB, and Executioner block survived you should have had 4 fortitude points.

There are a couple of options. One is to put banners on ALL the chaff units that can take one. When one starts getting worn down, you have the couple of survivors go hide in the corner to preserve fortitude. If your opponent starts wasting resources chasing down loose banners, he's not concentrating on your main combat blocks.

You can put the BSB with the General with the more survivable unit. That's Executioners...unless you're running a Cauldron with the Witches, so their 4++ ward trumps the 5+ of the Executioners. However, this risks the enemy concentrating all their efforts onto that block and reaping 4 fortitude with one broken unit.

You can also try the CoT Master BSB on a Dark Pegasus. A 1+/3++ save will protect him from most shooting, and he'll have the mobility to avoid most other threats... and deliver that reroll exactly where it is needed.
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direweasel
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by direweasel »

You didn't mention Cold One Chariots - they work well with infantry armies. You might give those a shot.
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Vulcan
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Vulcan »

Oh, yes, the work quite well teamed up with infantry blocks. The maneuverability of the single model helps offset their lack of march movement, and counter-charging into an ongoing combat can be quite devastating.

But Cold One Chariots won't help his Fortitude issues, unless you put the BSB Master in one.
Elrithral
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Elrithral »

Thanks for all the replies, folks. Appreciated.

I think my main issue is that giving the Dark Riders a banner is almost like giving up two fortitude before you start the game and if the Witches get ground down/shot to bits/magiced i'll be down to four and from there all my opponent needs is a few iffy dice roles from me to take me down to three and break me (which is exactly what happened in two challenges with my BSB).

I literally drew three games that I had won because of fortitude last weekend. In the first my DL on a peg failed a re-rollable 3+ and his 3++ and died to a bolt thrower. The other two my BSB failed all of his ward saves in challenges.

I'm torn between going for something more survivable, like the Knights, who can have a banner and could do some damage or the two units of Corsairs that I can hide to maintain fortitude. I just don't think the Darkshards are worth it, yes they'll keep the banner, but they'll be hitting on 5s for the most part and for the same cost I could get two small Corsair units that give me the two banners or the Cold Ones who will be strength 6 on the charge.

My hands were tied last weekend, I only had 2200 to play with, but the next one is 2500 so I want at least one more unit that can take a banner and hopefully cause a problem.
Ajattaro
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Ajattaro »

I wouldnt take DS either if you got completely offensive list. Corsairs with HBs and CoKs are both good choices. Corsairs with flaming HBs are really useful against many opponents in many ways. I would take them in most infantry lists.

Unless you got characters to deliver fast punch CoKscould be really useful flank sweepers. If you could add both units in small sizes it would be great. Our troops are really good by themselves, and I've noticed many times that going light characters gives you strong combat army. I usually play max medium sized units too to include some screening and WM hunter units instead of big blocks.

DE MSU/semi MSU is really good at blood and glory sine you get strong force with high fortitude.
Mikael.k
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Mikael.k »

Ajattaro, do you by any chance have an example list to share with us? Would be intresting to see :)

Btw, just noticed that you´re from Finland. Me too, kinda, even though im born and bred is Sweden. So, a finn living in Sweden then! :D
Ajattaro
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Ajattaro »

Mikael.k wrote:Ajattaro, do you by any chance have an example list to share with us? Would be intresting to see :)

Btw, just noticed that you´re from Finland. Me too, kinda, even though im born and bred is Sweden. So, a finn living in Sweden then! :D


Uhh too bad, I dont have a list at the moment because I usually write them on paper and then dispose them when they get old and get left behind by evolving comp systems... Now I'm working on kind of semi evasive lists that can get good combat potential with ETC Draft 3. Anyway my list had lvl4, CoT master, peg BSB, couple small witches, couple small DR, couple small shades, couple small Execs and one semi lare unit of CoK and a hydra. I was really light on magic items and command to fit everything. Can't remember if I had warlocks at all. Im not even sure if had that many small units in the end, since having really many units wasn't my preferance, thats why I wanted to bulk a good hammer from CoKs. I think I squeezed warlocks in when I dropped some small units. It was good list building process anyway, didn't lose a game, but usually didn't win too big either since MSU bleeds points easily.

Nice to know that you are finnish heh :P . Not too many around here. It would be nice to tour some other countries tournaments since traveling isnt so expensive! I havent had lot of time to concentrate on warhammer since everything else in real life is more important...
Elrithral
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Elrithral »

I'm playing in the tournament this weekend and i've went with the following.

DL -Crown of Command, Black Amulet, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak
SS - Life Lvl 4, Earthing Rod, Talisman of Preservation

Master - BSB, Peg, Sea Dragon Cloak, Crossbow, Shield, Heavy Armour, Lance
Sorceress - Lvl 2 (either Beasts for Wyssans or Shadow for Miasma) Dispel Scroll

2 x 5 Dark Riders - Musician, Crossbows
30 x Witches - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
2 x 10 Corsairs - Standard, Musician, Crossbows

26 x Executioners - Full Command, Banner of Swiftness
2 x Bolt Throwers

2 x 5 Warlocks

That comes in at something like 2498 and gives me fortitude of 7, so hopefully that will make a difference.

The only thing i'm in two minds about now is whether or not to swap out the bolt thowers for great weapon Shades because my rolls for bolt throwers always whiff.

Tbh, I would have liked to take the Cold Ones and lived with fortitude 6, but don't have them painted up yet.
Ajattaro
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Re: Best Units Outside Executioners and Witches

Post by Ajattaro »

Put a ward save or some other protection on your pegasus BSB! I dont know if you need him on pegasus either since you have only infantry blocks. Life mages dont usually need ward saves but its good to have since its hard to hide her in this list.
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