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death hag on cauldron magic weapon 
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Beastmaster
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The unit of witch elves has the razor banner.

She has the +d3 attacks rule.

What's the best weapon to give her? Ogre blade or sword of anti-heroes? Or something else?


James


Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:17 pm
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You will most commonly see the two of those. However I was playing around with points and noticed that Death Hag costs the same as 25 Executioners with full command plus a magical banner. I've since ditched the cauldron and now have an Executioner body-guard which I use similarly to an Empire detachment for my Witch Elf unit. So far, I REALLY like having that extra threat on the board.

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Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:12 pm
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Location: The thin edge of the wedge
Some people like the obsidian blade to help the unit chew through armor. But she is very vulnerable so it might just be best to keep her cheap or give her war cry to help the defensive capacity of the unit with the affect of fear and its ability to reduce weapons skill with failed fear tests.


Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:15 pm
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While its true that with a 6+/5++ she's not the toughest Char but once you hit that 1+as block the amount of Wounds she'll do thnx to the OB will help out.
Tho withs S4 and ap she'll alreqdy have some chance

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Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
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Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:47 am
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With 5-7 attacks, either the Obsidian Blade or Ogre Blade are fantastic choices at mowing down 1+ armour save characters, Cavalry/Monstrous Cavalry. However, both of these make the Hag very expensive, and she is still quite fragile.

The other alternative would be the just go with Cry of War to keep her cheap and use the greater chance of failing a fear test to improve survivability and damage output.


Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:19 pm
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I think it depends upon what else you have in your army. If you have things to deal with armor then you can go with other items like the fencers' blade or cry of war to help her survive. But, those just add to the cost. Or you can change your perspective and expect her to die and if she doesn't then that is a bonus.


Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:05 pm
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i want the opposition to fear getting into a challenge with her! i want her to cut down opposing champions and for the unit to tear into the rank and file! it's a tough choice.


Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:48 pm
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nah it's ogre blade, isn't it. has to be. if you get in a challenge with an opposition character, you need to kill it before it gets to strike back! 6-8 S5 AP attacks isn't as good as 5-7 S6 AP attacks. plus the ogre blade will work against non-character high armour save units like knights.

comrades i thank thee!

there's little scarier than 5-7 S6 AP attacks with re-rolls to hit and to wound. i almost feel bad for my future opponents!


Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:52 pm
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keep in mind that S6 is only -3 to his AS. its very easy to roll a 4+ ;) especially if those characters have a Wardsave aswell.
the Obsidian Blade doesn't give any additional S true but with S4 the worst you will be wounding on (most of the time) is a 5+, of which you get to reroll every failed To Wound because of the cauldron.

good luck either way m8 ;)

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Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth


Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:15 pm
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i said razor banner my friend! they won't like a -4 to their armour saves!

they wouldn't like it!!!!!


Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:16 pm
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To be frank, if you're overly worried about your Witch/Cauldron block running into a unit of 1+ armor saves, you're losing the maneuver battle... which DE should never do. Losing the maneuver battle means you've probably lost the game.

Your chaff units should be funneling his 1+ save units into your armor-killers - Executioners, Cold One Knights, K-Beasts, and (to a lesser extent) Black Guard; and AWAY from your S3 Witches.


Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:31 am
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Phierlihy wrote:
You will most commonly see the two of those. However I was playing around with points and noticed that Death Hag costs the same as 25 Executioners with full command plus a magical banner. I've since ditched the cauldron and now have an Executioner body-guard which I use similarly to an Empire detachment for my Witch Elf unit. So far, I REALLY like having that extra threat on the board.


The cauldron of blood has a 15 infantry base unit size when in a unit, which makes it a bit different. It stacks up to be about 20pts a infantry model for it's base size. And you get a BSB for a couple turns, buffs the rest of the unit, and with T6, 6+, 4++, 5 wounds, it can be risky for your opponent to attack it because of combat REZ.

The problem with COB is that 1/4 of the armies out there have access to cannons, and then there also other warmachines that can similarly land D6 wounds on it. It would be a simple choice if not for the abundance of cannons that can wipe it out.


Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:31 pm
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That's all very true! But it's valuable to also consider the downsides.
- as you mentioned, the Death Hag is a cannon-magnet. Without the benefit of a Look Out, Sir! roll, she has a low life expectancy.
- when the cauldron dies, the existing Witch Elves have to fill in that space. Unless you brought 50ish Witch Elves, the unit is no longer in any kind of an optimal formation.
- when the Death Hag dies (and even in close combat, she's not hard to kill), you lose your BSB. As someone who favors the Lore of Death and considers enemy BSBs my number one target, this is REALLY bad!
- assuming a horde formation, the Death Hag and her cauldron take the place of 15 poisoned attacks but only put out 5 to 7 plus 4. That's a net loss of 4-6. Sure they're better but they aren't that much better.
- she costs a lot. For the cost of the Death Hag, I can add another 37 Witch Elves to that unit and cover all my core requirements. Not to mention that unit would be serious points-denial.

I'm not saying a Cauldron of Blood is a horrible idea. I've had great success with it before. But I'm now finding I have better success without it. If it works for you, absolutely bring one! It's not a bad choice at all. For me though, I think there are better choices or at least choices that are better for me!

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Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:58 am
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I think of the COB as a Tier 3.5 out of 5 star choice. It's a little bit better at smaller pt levels because it is more likely that your opponent will not have an answer.

In response to Phierlihy--I never finish painting my COB model because I didn't think it would be worth it as a main stay of my army. I'll sum up by saying though in my experience and running the math behind it, if your opponent does not have threatening war machines, the COB is stronger than another unit of Exies. If your opponent does have threatening war machines, the exies are the stronger choice.

In response to the OP, I only put a weapon on the Hag in the COB in small games. The COB is already many points and the hag is easy to kill; I wouldn't add points there unless really need to to round out the army.


Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:00 pm
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hang on - are you saying that the hag can just be shot with a cannon ball? surely the cauldron joins the unit "as a character" - and therefore gets a lookout sir roll? but it's a large target so i guess not...

so the character is on a large target mount, which joins the unit as a character. essentially you're saying that when the cauldron gets targeted and hit, the character gets hit too? like when characters ride dragons or other mounts. damn - cannons need re-working! that's pretty powerful. and all the cauldron has to protect itself is a 4++ ward and she has a 5++.

yeah damn, perhaps i'll save the points... or buy a unit of harpies to get in the way of that damn organ gun for a turn! take -2 to hit for shooting through hard cover!!

they wouldn't like it!! !lol!

Phierlihy wrote:
That's all very true! But it's valuable to also consider the downsides.
- as you mentioned, the Death Hag is a cannon-magnet. Without the benefit of a Look Out, Sir! roll, she has a low life expectancy.
- when the cauldron dies, the existing Witch Elves have to fill in that space. Unless you brought 50ish Witch Elves, the unit is no longer in any kind of an optimal formation.
- when the Death Hag dies (and even in close combat, she's not hard to kill), you lose your BSB. As someone who favors the Lore of Death and considers enemy BSBs my number one target, this is REALLY bad!
- assuming a horde formation, the Death Hag and her cauldron take the place of 15 poisoned attacks but only put out 5 to 7 plus 4. That's a net loss of 4-6. Sure they're better but they aren't that much better.
- she costs a lot. For the cost of the Death Hag, I can add another 37 Witch Elves to that unit and cover all my core requirements. Not to mention that unit would be serious points-denial.

I'm not saying a Cauldron of Blood is a horrible idea. I've had great success with it before. But I'm now finding I have better success without it. If it works for you, absolutely bring one! It's not a bad choice at all. For me though, I think there are better choices or at least choices that are better for me!


Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:22 pm
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it joins the Unit as a Character yes but since its not the same Unit Type as the Unit (Cauldron is a Chariot while the WE are Infantry) the Death Hag wont get her Look Out Sir! roll
so if they hit the Cauldron with a Cannonball you then randomize wether it hits the Cauldron or the DH and the resolve.

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Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth


Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:36 pm
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Searinox Nagharha wrote:
it joins the Unit as a Character yes but since its not the same Unit Type as the Unit (Cauldron is a Chariot while the WE are Infantry) the Death Hag wont get her Look Out Sir! roll
so if they hit the Cauldron with a Cannonball you then randomize wether it hits the Cauldron or the DH and the resolve.


I'm pretty sure the canonball would hit BOTH rider and chariot. It's not randomized between rider and chariot.

I think Canons are over worried about. I still remember losing my CoB on the first turn to a single canonball, but on the flip side,

Only 4 of the armies have canons.
And then your opponent has to chose to bring one if he plays the army,

Then canons have a chance to misfire, doesn't bounce far enough, 4+ ward on CoB, or it may do a negligible amount of wounds, etc.

And then if you didn't have the COB, and instead the canon went into the Exies 5 by 5, it likewise would could cause damage to the unit, even if Exies are a less efficient target.

CoB also makes a unit of witches very scary.

-------------------------------------

The CoB is a strong choice, however, noticeably other DE choices are heavily comped in sweedish and ETC while the CoB is not....


Fri May 01, 2015 12:01 am
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I've been playing Legions of Chaos in my local league and I can tell you with first-hand experience, if you can take a cannon, you WILL take a cannon. Holy crap they are awesome. And due to their length, a chariot is about the easiest thing out there to hit and kill. Add to that if 9th edition goes back to previous editions in that chariots are auto-destroyed when wounded by ST7 or higher, that would be another nail in their coffin. But I digress - the Death Hag and the Cauldron would both be hit by the cannon ball and each make a save. The Death Hag would likely die, the cauldron itself would likely live (on average it takes 3 cannon balls to destroy it).

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Fri May 01, 2015 1:45 pm
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For anyone reading, Darren has been using a CoB in his battle reports and I think his games represent the model well. Here is his most recent game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpT_sZ1 ... e=youtu.be


This is incorrect: "The Death Hag would likely die, the cauldron itself would likely live (on average it takes 3 cannon balls to destroy it)."


Fri May 01, 2015 6:23 pm
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Which part? That the Death Hag will likely die? My math says about a 58% chance. Or that it takes 3 cannon balls to destroy a cauldron? My math says 3.2 but I rounded down.

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Fri May 01, 2015 11:12 pm
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Doesn't the Hag get a 4+ save on the cauldron as well?

I haven't run one since the new book (I don't like the new rules for it one bit), so I'm a bit unsure of the rules on the new cauldron...


Sat May 02, 2015 2:40 am
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Phierlihy wrote:
Which part? That the Death Hag will likely die? My math says about a 58% chance. Or that it takes 3 cannon balls to destroy a cauldron? My math says 3.2 but I rounded down.


Just to be clear, we are agreeing that the CoB is scary, but not the most competitive option because war machines, even war machines other than cannons, are threatening. What we disagree about how often cannons are faced in a local meta and then how many wounds would a COB have after three cannon shots.

hmmm.... I can check my answer later. But this is what I got right quick:

I gave the cannon only a 27.7777777% chance to hit.

I got this from:
5/6 chance to not misfire
4/6 chance to have a bounce that hits (not undershoot or overshooting)

The above two calculations have been done much better on another druchii post as another forum goer. He figured out the ideal distance and then color coded pictures about the chance to hit at different angles . I need to find the post and update the chance to hit, becauuse 5/6 * 4/6 is wrong.

then,

3/6 chance to get through wards save.

If the chance to do D6 wounds is 27.777777777 then, amount of wounds after three shots is listed below.

Nothing 1 wounds 2 wounds 3 wounds 4 wound Killed
1 shot 0.7222222222 0.0462962963 0.0462962963 0.0462962963 0.0462962963 0.09259259259
2 shot 0.5216049383 0.06687242798 0.06901577503 0.07115912209 0.07330246914 0.1980452675
3 shot 0.3767146776 0.07244513032 0.07708904893 0.08183219657 0.03498418686 0.3569347597


Again, please don't take this as fact until it's checked! Thanks,

night.

Dragonarmy


Sat May 02, 2015 6:53 am
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A CoB can and is amazing if it gets into combat, and to get it there you need to combine a number of things,

1) have something to clear out enemy chaff fast, so you can make a charge into the enemy T2/3
2) have something that deals with warmachines or present a bigger threat so that the enemy shoots something else
3) deploy well so that you can march forward and have options to charge something juicy that your enemy cannot flee
4) avoid being frenzy baited into something useless if you fail your check

Your original post was about magic weapons and when I take a cob I always take obsidian blade not necessarily for armour it's mainly because I challenge out with my death hag to help keep her alive and with the ob and re rolling wounds most lords/heroes are dead in a single round I've killed daemon princes, tyrants, nurgle heralds on palaquins. Etc..

I also use blackguard and not witches so I can house the lvl4 I the unit on dark for power of darkness. It's fun to play it can be ruined by canons but it can also be very difficult for some armies to deal with.

Most of all have some fun, but don't get annoyed if it gets cannoned off turn one as this will happen every now and again


Sat May 02, 2015 1:56 pm
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Vulcan - no she does not.

I'm not Mr Math-guy either =) But the DRAICH (Dark Elves for Dummies) article on cannons list a 75% to hit which drops to 63% of cannon shots will also wound based upon a 5/6 chance of wounding. Then it's just Ward Saves and damage.

Regardless of how good or bad my math is, cannons scare the pants off me. I've lost too much to them for their ultra-low cost.

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Sat May 02, 2015 2:06 pm
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My last post was hard to read and understand.

If cannon ball hits 63% and as Phierlihy quotes, I calculate that

32% there will be 0 wounds after three shots.
35% of the time the CoB will be dead (which also could have happened after the first shot!)


Mon May 04, 2015 2:40 am
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