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death hag on cauldron magic weapon 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I played two games with a Death Hag and two without over the last two weeks. One thing I didn't account for - the protection the Cauldron brings to the Witch Elves is a pretty effective points-denial system. It makes it a fair bit harder to get victory points out of those Witch Elves and that's worth a lot too. I think both with and without a Death Hag is viable and I'm still forming an opinion as to which I prefer.

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Mon May 04, 2015 3:11 am
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Vulcan wrote:
To be frank, if you're overly worried about your Witch/Cauldron block running into a unit of 1+ armor saves, you're losing the maneuver battle... which DE should never do. Losing the maneuver battle means you've probably lost the game.

Your chaff units should be funneling his 1+ save units into your armor-killers - Executioners, Cold One Knights, K-Beasts, and (to a lesser extent) Black Guard; and AWAY from your S3 Witches.
in my games units are not the issue, however 1+ flyers are the issue.
also, witches w/o cauldron are rather cheap unit, and can be sacrificed.
with cauldron you generally lose the battle if lose this unit, as it is 600 points. thus having options to chew armour is good investment.
another option is to skip infantry and play flying circus ;)

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Thu May 07, 2015 9:07 am
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Okay, I see what you mean. 1+ save fliers would give Witches fits.


Thu May 07, 2015 6:00 pm
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Vulcan wrote:
Okay, I see what you mean. 1+ save fliers would give Witches fits.


I think that he means units of flyers that can be taken in just units of 1. These tend to send the witches off in all sorts of directions with their compulsory overrun caused by frenzy while only giving up 50 points or so.

My unit of witches and CoB tend to chew right through a lot of 1+ armour things purely due to the amount of attacks that go through. That 1 50 point flyer though... sure I get 50 points but I also get a flank charge next turn :?

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Thu May 07, 2015 6:14 pm
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Oh, that? That's what I meant by loosing the maneuver battle. It's easy to manage THAT problem. Just use your chaff better than the other guy.

Or make sure the general and BSB is nearby. Ld 9 plus reroll means you only chase that giant eagle once per six GAMES (one chance in 36). Ld 10 plus reroll raises it to once per 24 games (one chance in 144).

Okay, using Witchbrew or the Cauldron boost makes it more likely.... but proper use of your chaff to block charge lanes until you get the one YOU want is part and parcel of playing DE.

Really, Frenzy-baiting is nowhere NEAR the problem people think it is.


Thu May 07, 2015 6:57 pm
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there isnt much you can do about a lone flyer trying to block your big unit.
also most of the time it isnt rly frenzy baiting, if you drop anything not worth the points (Harpies, Dark Riders, Zombies, Hounds, anything) at an angle infront of them your WE Block will need to charge that unit to make any distance.
and because the WE are frenzied they are forced to overrun, putting them in a vulnerable posistion for a flank charge.

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Thu May 07, 2015 7:34 pm
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Which is why you put your chaff in front of your Witch Elves to prevent the pursuit...

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Fri May 08, 2015 12:34 am
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But then you can't charge with the witches if your stuff is in front.


Fri May 08, 2015 1:34 am
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If you've done it right, you've blocked your witches in such a way that they stop 1" away from your chaff but can charge past it next turn. Kind of like they are corner-to-corner except there is 1" between their corners.

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Fri May 08, 2015 3:36 am
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That's why proper ANTI-chaff tactics require looking a turn ahead wherever possible. And we do have answers for a lot of such problems. You either maneuver your chaff in the way of his chaff, use your chaff to outright kill his chaff - or at least engage it in battle long enough to pin it down, or use RXB fire to sweep it away.

Flyers can't be blocked, no, but they CAN be shot or pinned down. If he keeps them hidden behind his line, well, that's what Magic Missile/Direct Damage spells, scouting Shades, Fast Cav Dark Riders with RXBs, and flyers of our own (both Harpies and Dark Peggy masters) are for.

The DE maneuver game is remarkably like chess. Whichever player can look farther ahead and make THEIR plan happen wins.


Fri May 08, 2015 8:57 pm
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i think, in hindsight, that the best thing to do is save the 80 or so points and buy a unit of harpies to redirect/screen with.

5-7 S6 AP attacks is great, but 5 poisoned S4 AP attacks is still relatively good. and the unit of harpies to block with is a better idea.


Fri May 08, 2015 9:13 pm
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Harpis though are overcosted in relation to their statline, IMO. They do not vanguard and they do not scout. So it will still take them atleast two turns to get into warmachines. And if you opponent does it right he can limit their movement. Shades scout and can shoot (well) and can fight better for only the extra cost of a rxb on a master.


Sat May 09, 2015 4:17 am
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in the context of my list i'd rather have harpies, but i agree that just by comparing the two in isolation it's the shades that are better


Sat May 09, 2015 12:13 pm
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marcopollo wrote:
Harpis though are overcosted in relation to their statline, IMO. They do not vanguard and they do not scout. So it will still take them atleast two turns to get into warmachines. And if you opponent does it right he can limit their movement. Shades scout and can shoot (well) and can fight better for only the extra cost of a rxb on a master.


You are probably using your harpies wrong if you can't see their value. Sure, they can go kill a war machine if you want them to, but thats not their real value. They are the best thing in the book for sitting behind your main units so they can fly out to protect them from crucial counter charges so you can trade 75 points for 300+ points. I dropped them from my list for ages after the 8th ed book dropped because I thought they were over costed etc, but now I never leave home without one unit because they are just that important to winning games. Obviously I would prefer a single eagle for the job, but harpies aren't really that much worse in the scheme of things.

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Sat May 09, 2015 1:42 pm
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Yep. The harpies are your emergency insurance. They sit behind your main block, and pop out when you absolutely, positively NEED that charge lane blocked NOW and there's nothing else available to do it. Fly means it's virtually impossible to stop them from reaching their perfect blocking position.

They aren't warmachine hunters anymore. Shades, Dark Riders, Warlocks, and Peggy Masters all fill that role better. Harpies are now speed bumps and redirectors, pure and simple. No, they're not going to kill anything. But you can use them to devastating effect all the same.


Sun May 10, 2015 2:51 am
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I am still not convinced. 75 pts is a RBT and an ironcurse icon. I take full DR core and 1-2 units of shades for chaff work. In a Swedish comp system where they like you to have a variety of units, then harpies are fine. I think they would be appropriate at 13 pts a model.


Mon May 11, 2015 4:24 pm
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With your army build, yes, harpies would be much less useful. Lots of DR chaff does make them a bit redundant.


Tue May 12, 2015 4:46 am
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marcopollo wrote:
But then you can't charge with the witches if your stuff is in front.

exactly. warhammer is being played by 2 people and other armies have answers to DE strengths.
if the opponent allows you a clear charge with witches, you win.
the question is if he does not. like 2 eagle 4 rbt HE or WE BS gunline or DOC 3 furies builds. A good opponent will find means to give you an option either of charge with bad overrun or losing a turn with receving a bad charge.

harpies are relly handy for witches management btw. I am currently playing 2 units of 5. rbts are already included and i do not use ironcure for witch elves units.

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Tue May 12, 2015 10:00 am
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That's why I use tirestrip units of 10 Witches, 1" in front of my main infantry blocks.

They're there expressly to make that bad charge into a bad overrun... and leave the opponent with a bad choice. Charge the tirestrip in the flank and risk being flanked in turn, or sit and wait for my main infantry blocks to arrive next turn.

Muwah-ha-ha-ha! :twisted:


Wed May 13, 2015 3:55 am
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What you guys are not taking into account is the force multiplier that the CoB is. It allows the WE's to reroll all failed to wound rolls (vital a S3) and means that they become a true harvester unit. There are 3 ways troops avoid damage, being hard to hit, being hard to wound and having good armour. The re-rolls mean that the first is not good for the enemy, the razor standard helps the third, but the second, difficulty to wound, really hurts them. The re-roll helps this.

The Death Hag should balance the strength of the unit by making up for the WE deficiencies, Obsidian Blade all day long.


Tue May 19, 2015 9:08 am
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Actually that was discussed on page 1. In a vacuum the force-multiplier argument can be made. But there are a thousand other examples that are equally valid (ie instead of taking a cauldron of blood, how about you consider Witches in the front and a block of Executioners in the flank as a force multiplier?). It is something to consider but I believe difficult to discuss effectively because there are innumerable variations to consider.

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Tue May 19, 2015 1:04 pm
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Trust me, Timiketh, I understand the force multiplying effect of the Cauldron. I just don't find it valuable enough to tie up that many points in a single cannonizable model, in a decidedly cannon-heavy meta around here.


Wed May 20, 2015 4:39 am
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I agree with vulcan. The CoB is very niche dependent due to it's high points cost and easy destructibility. It can't stand up to armies with d6 wounding warmachines. The hag is very squishy. And the reality of actually getting full value out of a WE/CoB unit is low due to the variety of techniques used to deflect/distract/destroy it.

For me, the BWS is an excellent value instead. It allows for large, bus like formations at a more reasonable cost. So for the cost of 15 corsairs, you get a "unit strength/size" of 30 models. 15 corsair models cost 165 pts, so for an extra 10 pts, you get the effect of adding 15 corsair bases and the killing effect of the shrine which can shoot, stand and shoot, and fight with the same prowess as a decent master. This helps in breaking steadfast or creating steadfast in your own troops.

And at almost half the cost of a CoB is much more efficient with its role.


Wed May 20, 2015 9:28 pm
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Very interesting discussion. I have to face a strong 1+ AS Empire list soon, and it is only 1600 points. It is given that there will also be a cannon. I believe at 1600 points the COB (+ 20 witches) with Death Hag holding Obisidian Blade can be devastating to anything in combat, but in such a small point game, losing 400 points to a cannon will also hurt a lot.

Marchosias offered the option to bring Death Hag + Obsidian Blade without COB, which allows to field a second Death Hag on foot with Witchbrew in 15 man strong Executioners unit. But as enemy will have higher movement and is more experienced, he might be able to outmanouevre me.

I will take Light magic however, which also bring some extra tools against the enemy cannon (Pha's Protection, Net of Amyntok) besides enough chaff to deal with the cannon soon. Your statistics already show that killing the COB with 1 cannon is by far not 100%.

What would you recommend in this situation ?

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Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:58 pm
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Full DR core. lv 2 scroll caddy (metal) + mr1 steed, Cloak of Twilight pegmaster (BSB), warlocks, 1 unit of shades, RBT's.

Of course this is not even in the same universe as your desires, but that is what I would take to challenge his list.


Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:16 pm
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