End Times Magic - Thoughts and Opinions

[Lord hajjij]

Has anyone here used End Times magic for more than just a game, or couple games? Anyone gave it a chance over many games to see how it averages out?

I've played probably 20 games with it so far. Overall, I think I like it a lot more than I dislike it. Considering that many believe End Times is a "trial period" for changes in 9th edition, I would say overall that I hope it stays, but with a couple tweaks.

Pros:
1. Everyone knows all spells from their lore. Best part of the new system. I hate rolling for spells. A wizard studies years and years, and still doesn't know the spells of his lore? Also, I find you see more different level wizards than just level 4s. Taking a level 1 is great for the extra toolbox that comes with it. I've been seeing more from lesser seen lores like Fire and Heavens, because you have guaranteed access to that great spell buried in the lore, like Flaming Sword or Comet.

2. Randomness of amount of dice that can be used per spell. The main gripe I always had with magic (and what caused some people I know to quit) was just 6 dicing mega spells. While the mega spells do have a place in the game so they can balance out Death Stars, they are not GONE - they are still castable, just not EASILY castable every turn. (and much of the time, unstoppable) Also, with dispel dice amount being random too, it feels balanced because you feel like you have a chance to cast, say Dwellers on 4 dice and have it go off instead of it just being auto-dispelled with 6 dice.

3. More dice total per phase makes it more of a chess match. With 2d6 power vs d6 dispel, there was a little strategy but generally it was to try to get the 1 of 2 spells you cast off. Now, I feel there is a lot more strategy just because there is a lot more that can happen after the 1st or even 2nd cast. Combined with the shear number of spells at each player's disposal, it becomes a lot more than "I just have to stop this ONE spell and I'm good!" from the dispelling player. I think that's fun.

4. "Lord Level Spells" aka End Time Spells. I think this is great to differentiate the power of a lord level caster. One thing that I think would be amazing would be to have 6 spells in each lore, then a "major" and "minor" spell, available to lord and hero level casters, respectively.

5. Removal of 'Loss of Concentration' rule. I always thought this rule was so stupid. Why would you promote throwing a fistful of dice at one spell, instead of promoting a tactical and more chance-y approach to casting? I never understood that and hope if nothing else, they keep this change.


Cons:
1. Augments/Hexes should not be cumulative on the same unit. As fun as it is, casting Power of Darkness over and over until your unit is Str 10 is dumb in my mind. Damage Spells, fine. And if you want to cast the augment/hexes on other units, fine. But again I think we should be promoting variety, not just casting the best spells over and over and over.

2. Recasting Dispelled Spells. This one kind of depends on your interpretation of the rules, but we've been playing that if you reach the casting cost of a spell, but it gets dispelled, you can try it again. I wish they would come out and clear this up and that the rule would be that it is NOT re-castable if it is dispelled. You got shut down by the dispeller, and now must make another move. It makes some spells stupid, like Warp Lightning. (esp when cast from a Verminlord Warpseer who can one dice it with a re-roll if he gets a 1 or 2)

3. Loremaster. I think they should instead make it so that the player can re-roll the d6 to determine the amount of dice you can cast a spell with, giving the Loremaster a bit more control over casting his lore.

4. Wizards having access to more than one lore knowing ALL spells from all lores. Maybe make it so that there is a "primary" lore chosen, and the wizard knows all the spells from that one, but can then choose spells based on their level for the other lore(s) they know. So a Wandering Deliberations Slaan could choose Light as the primary lore, and then pick 1 Life spell, 2 Metal spells, and 1 Death spell, for example.

Overall I'd like to hear your thoughts and experiences. Obviously, GW probably already knows what direction they're going in, but I'm curious what others think.

[Dragonarmy]

Yeah, generally I agree.

[Haagrum]

I haven't had a chance to play with the End Times magic rules yet. However, I think that they're quite unbalanced, on account of the way that it absolutely breaks Power of Darkness, Loremasters of Hoeth and Doomfire Warlocks (points which Lord Hajjij has raised).

I've got no issues with a more tactically-inclined magic phase, or with the greater emphasis that the End Times magic rules give to cheaper, more reliable spells. If copies of the same spell could not stack on the same target, and if the "knows all spells" rule applied only to those wizards who normally generated their spells by rolling dice (as opposed to having fixed spells), I wouldn't see any real problems with End Times magic.

As for characters with access to more than one lore of magic in the same game - with the other changes suggested, this is really only an issue for Alarielle, Morathi, Skaven players and a number of End Times special characters. However, I agree with the "primary lore" idea, as it would give these characters some additional flexibility without becoming (more) game-breakingly powerful.

[Calisson]

Tried once. Enjoyed.
Agree with Lord hajjij's analysis.
I found the magic phase more fun, more effective (the regular rules often lead to a very mediocre magic phase) and still balanced.
However, it could be a bit boring if you just re-cast the same low level spell over and over.

I wish the rules made clear that when you decide to cast or dispel, then roll to know how many dice you can use, you then MUST roll at least one die, even if it is hopeless (reflecting the fact that you had made a decision to cast/dispel).
Example, the opponent rolls 5 dice, gets a total of 15, I wish to dispel but find out I got only 2 dice, I must roll at least 1 die.

The loremaster rule applied to warlocks makes them OP indeed (I mean, even more OP). It does make sense that a group of old wizards know collectively 15 spells, but their cost should be increased accordingly.

Magic items or properties which apply to each spell gain a disproportionate advantage, as many more spells are cast per turn. Their cost should be increased proportionally. Example, Book of Ashur; for 100 pts you should have a bonus to cast only, or to dispel only.
Magic items which apply to a single spell lose most of their interest. Their cost should be decreased, and they should be allowed in multiple numbers. Example, dispel scroll should be either 10 pts, multiple dispel scrolls allowed limitless in the army, or 25pts, dispel the spell cast (if possible) AND prevents same spell to be cast again during the same magic phase.