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@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to deal?
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Author:  herpesFree [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  @$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to deal?

I played three games against High Elves last weekend, twice with Empire and once with Beastmen. That's all the Warhammer I've played so I'm kinda new to the gameplay side of things (I've watched a million batreps). I kept getting crunched by those bloody @$$masters of Hoeth. WS6, and 2 attacks each with three attacking ranks... wtf?

I decided on collecting Dark Elves and starting the Warhammer journey with them. My first port of call, however, is coming up with some answers to SoH and my friends' shit-eating grin. What models are best against them? Any pearls of wisdom that you can impart upon me?

Cheers :mrgreen:

Author:  Lord Drakon [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Why don't you try Sisters of Slaughter ? I have never played against High Elves but suspect them to kick swordmasters ass !

Author:  herpesFree [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Lord Drakon wrote:
Why don't you try Sisters of Slaughter ? I have never played against High Elves but suspect them to kick swordmasters ass !

If I was playing 1000 points what would be a good number to take? What would be the modus operandi with them? March up and get into close combat asap or dance around a bit and whittle em down with shooting then go in? I'm pretty clueless so excuse the barrage of questions ;)

Author:  Demetrius [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Shoot with bolt throwers and crossbows, hit them with breath weapons, or fight them in combat with black guard/ sisters of slaughter/ witch elves. Hell, even a boosted fireball will seriously hurt them. They really aren't that hard to kill with a Dark Elf army because of their negligible armour save, low toughness and the fact that our units strike before them and get rerolls to hit.

Author:  herpesFree [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Demetrius wrote:
Shoot with bolt throwers and crossbows, hit them with breath weapons, or fight them in combat with black guard/ sisters of slaughter/ witch elves. Hell, even a boosted fireball will seriously hurt them. They really aren't that hard to kill with a Dark Elf army because of their negligible armour save, low toughness and the fact that our units strike before them and get rerolls to hit.

How do you think this would go against SoH, Silver Helms, Reavers, and the High Elf version of the RBT:-

+++ Chicks With Pointy Sticks (992pts) +++

+ Heroes (333pts) +

Master (168pts) [Battle Standard Bearer, Dark Pegasus, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armor, Lance, Light Armor, Repeater Crossbow, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield]

Sorceress (165pts) [Hand Weapon, Lore of Dark Magic, Wizard Level 2]
····Magic Items
········Arcane Items [Dispel Scroll]
········Enchanted Items [Ironcurse Icon]
········Magic Armour [Dragonhelm]
········Talismans [Seed of Rebirth]

+ Core (349pts) +

Dark Riders (85pts) [Light Armor, Spear]
····5x Dark Riders [5x Shield]

Darkshards (264pts) [Guardmaster, Hand Weapon, Light Armor, Musician, Repeater Crossbow, Standard bearer]
····18x Darkshards [18x Shield]

+ Rare (240pts) +

Sisters of Slaughter (240pts) [Handmaiden of Shards, Musician, 14x Sisters of Slaughter, Standard bearer]

+ Special (70pts) +

Reaper Bolt Thrower (70pts)
····Dark Elf [Hand Weapon, Light Armor]
····Dark Elf [Hand Weapon, Light Armor]

Not sure whether to put the Sorc in the SoS unit or with the Darkshards, but you get the gist.

Author:  Haagrum [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

herpesFree wrote:
I played three games against High Elves last weekend, twice with Empire and once with Beastmen. That's all the Warhammer I've played so I'm kinda new to the gameplay side of things (I've watched a million batreps). I kept getting crunched by those bloody @$$masters of Hoeth. WS6, and 2 attacks each with three attacking ranks... wtf?

I decided on collecting Dark Elves and starting the Warhammer journey with them. My first port of call, however, is coming up with some answers to SoH and my friends' shit-eating grin. What models are best against them? Any pearls of wisdom that you can impart upon me?

Cheers :mrgreen:


Thankfully, Swordmasters are somewhat limited against Dark Elves, if only because we strike first and get re-rolls to hit against them.

For a close combat-oriented army, I would recommend taking any of our infantry options with multiple attacks per model, or a unit of 10 Doomfire Warlocks. Witch Elves, Black Guard and Sisters of Slaughter, possibly with a Witchbrew-carrying Death Hag for either of the last two options, should make a mess of them. Warlocks... well, they're just ridiculously good in close combat, with a 4+ ward save thrown in for good measure.

For a shooting option, I'd go with either Darkshards or Reapers. T3 models 5+ saves (with a 6+ Deflect Shots ward) don't stand up well to repeater crossbows and bolt throwers. Dark Riders can also chip away at them from range. Alternately, you could try using a War Hydra's breath weapon attack (as a shooting attack, not as a close combat attack) - every Swordmaster hit will be killed on a 2+, barring any magical support.

As has been stated, magic missiles also make a mess of Swordmasters. The humble Fireball (to say nothing of Doombolt) will wreck them.

EDIT: As regards the proposed army list - you've got a lot of good responses to Swordmasters (you posted just before I posted). I'd drop the Dragonhelm on the Sorceress, as this would stop her from casting spells. You might want to replace it with a Dark Steed and add the sorceress to the Dark Riders, as this will give her immense flexibility in movement as well as the protection of a unit.

Author:  DarkSky [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Keep in mind, that Dark Elves are very different from Beastmen and Empire.
The Swordmasters, like the White Lions do forfeit their "Always Strikes First" by using great weapons. In close combat that means your troops will strike first and because of hatred re-roll attacks regardless of initiative. Use that and the lack of defenses on the Swordmasters (T3, 5+) to your advantage:

Witch Elves should strike down so many Swordmasters before retaliation, they should clearly win the combat, Blackguard as well. Sisters of Slaughter were already mentioned by Lord Drakon (but that was expected, as he is a great fan of the sisters), but they are much stronger vs. White Lions, because their +1 Hit and Wound special won't trigger versus Swordmasters.

Mathhammer comparison:
Witch Elf vs. Swordmaster. 1st round one Witch Elf attack will do 0,36 wounds, one Swordmaster attack will do 0,56 wounds. If you fight with 21 WE vs. 21 Swordmasters (7x3, usually you should try to be wider as the opponent, as the front rank of the Witch Elves is crucial), you will have 29 attacks and kill 10,5 on average. That means only 17-18 attacks in return. If you manage to get a single augment or hex spell active for the fight your witches you will annihilate the Swordmasters big time. If the fight is only 14 vs. 14 it is even better for you (still 29 attacks, only 6-7 in return).

If your opponent is playing a large block of Swordmaster I would suggest to make a pin cushion out of them. A flame breath of the War Hydra is also a nice way to diminish them in size. A Reaper Bolt Thrower firing multishot will kill more than 2 Swordmasters on average (less on long range). Dark Riders can outmaneuver them, and five with crossbows should be able to kill at least one every turn. On the magic side, nearly every Magic Missile is a good one versus Swordmasters, with the Doombolt averaging on nearly 5 kills.

Edit says: Regarding the list: No Armour for casters and put her on a Dark Steed if you are playing Dark Magic. Doombolt ist only 18'', Shroud of Despair only 12'' and for the Black Horror you want to be as close as possible.

Author:  herpesFree [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Thanks guys for all the juicy bits of info. I'll add the Sorc to the Riders with a steed and try out some Witch Elves in an alternative list. I'll post back here with the results (maybe in a few days depending on when I play next). Thanks again ;)

Author:  Tactical Dark ELf [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Swordmasters are also I6 which means they'll go before executioners and get re-reolls to hit. So avoid 1v1 scenarios with them.
But with great weapons, i'd recommend Witch Elves to take them out fast and doombolt is your friend.
Also Get more warlocks, with 2 poisoned strength 4 attacks each a unit of 5 should make at Least 5 wounds with a -1 to there heavy armour. So thats 5 dead right off the bat. Combined with doombolt and soulblight. And then horses. There great weapons don't really make much of a difference as there armour save is only 6+, thats where there 4++ comes in handy.
Only resort to combat with them if necessary. Not bad with a 125point unit.

Author:  Daeron [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Tactical Dark ELf wrote:
Swordmasters are also I6 which means they'll go before executioners and get re-reolls to hit. So avoid 1v1 scenarios with them.

My understanding is that they don't get re-rolls as the effects "cancel out". Executioners do get re-rolls thanks to hatred. But it would still be a bad idea to have them go 1v1 ... for us.

Author:  Calisson [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pansy-@$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to dea

Moderator's note.
About the first word of the title of the thread, may I kindly remind all readers t have a look at our FAQ?
In particular, you might re-read: 2. Off limits. P-A-N-S-Y & G-A-Y: Offensive and Inappropriate Content.
Thanks.
I corrected the leading post.
Calisson

Author:  Vulcan [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to deal?

A tirestrip unit of 10 Witches with musician is 110 points. They have 30 attacks and will statistically get 22 hits (4 poisons) and deliver 13 wounds, of which the Swordmasters will only save 4ish. Yes, the Swordmaster return attacks will be devastating, but the tirestrip is effectively a chaff unit you can afford to lose.

Throw one or two of those into a big block of Swordmasters and you'll have them neatly trimmed down to size for the big combat block the tirestrips were screening.

Executioners should never engage Swordmasters unless there is no choice. Even then, make every effort to give them superfrenzy for that combat. Executioners were designed to engage heavy armor first and foremost, and struggle against most everything else.

Author:  herpesFree [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to deal?

Calisson wrote:
Moderator's note.
About the first word of the title of the thread, may I kindly remind all readers t have a look at our FAQ?
In particular, you might re-read: 2. Off limits. P-A-N-S-Y & G-A-Y: Offensive and Inappropriate Content.
Thanks.
I corrected the leading post.
Calisson

My bad. Wasn't meaning it that way.

Author:  marcopollo [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @$$ Swordmasters of Hoeth destroyed me. How to deal?

Shoot them. They are only T3 with minimal AS. Several rounds of shooting from DR or shades will mince them to a manageable size. Thank you armor piercing!

Hit them in the flank. They are, after all, just infantry (M5 or 6 with the swiftness banner and no swiftstride).

Bottleneck them. If has a big unit, he will be protecting it with screens. So bottleneck them so they can't do anything worthwhile.

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