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Tactics vs WOC 
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Warrior

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:02 pm
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I have a couple of games set up against warrior of chaos and I have never played against them.
what are the major treat that the WOC have? what is the best tactics to defeat them?

I will field a huge unit of executioners (probably horde).
I will also use Morathi with a lvl 1 shadow scroll caddy. what is the best combination of lore/spells to use against WOC?
I was thinking the 4 signature from all the lores: double miasma (also from the caddy) will slow their big unit down, allowing me to look at one danger at time, spirit leech for the characters, double doombolt (with Warlocks) to thin things up and power of darkness to get back dices for an abundant magic phase.


Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:51 pm
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The search tool is your friend.

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Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:58 pm
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Warrior

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thank you for this :)

I wanted to ask a bit on magic: they were saying mainly death and shadow with morathi, but what do you think about ABH and soul stealer? they both negate armour save and whatever toughness with 6 you get it!
if you combo it with sum buffs the game is pretty much done!


Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:53 pm
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I'm sorry but you lost me. I don't understand what you're asking.

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Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:00 am
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Unless the WOC player runs marauder-heavy (in which case you'll probably rampage straight over him), Lore of Metal is your friend. Searing Doom is NASTY against heavy armor.


Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:06 am
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Warrior

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yeah that's cool..
but i am fielding morathi, so no lore of metal..
what's the best combination of lore/spells in this case?


Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:28 am
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I don't think there is a "best" combination. A lot of it is dependent on your army composition and play style just as much as it is of your opponent. A good General will take the tools he has available and use them to win =)

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Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:22 pm
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The scroll caddy can take it instead of shadow...


Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:59 pm
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Warriors of Chaos can really mean a ton of different things because the army is pretty versatile. If you have no idea what he's bringing, then it's hard to help you tailor a list against them. If he is using Legions of Chaos, just throw most of this out the window because no one can blindly advise against that army without having SOME idea of what he's bringing.

The biggest overall threats in my mind are:

Tzeentch Disc Lord/Sorcerer Lord with a 3++ ward save, Helcannons, Daemon Princes, Skullcrushers, & Slaanesh/Nurgle Magic

After that:

Chimeras, Chaos Knights, Chariots, & Chaos Trolls (esp if using Throgg to make them a Core choice)


[b]A typical power-gaming WoC army is something like:[b]

Daemon Prince, Flying, Nurgle, Level 4 Nurgle or Death wizard, 1+ AS, etc.
Tzeentch BSB with a 3++ Ward on a flying disc
Secondary Wizard of Death or Slaanesh
2-3 Slaanesh marked Marauder Horsemen
3-4 Khorne Chariots (T5, W4, 3+ AS and Core...ugh)
Khorne Knights or Trolls
Skullcrushers
1-2 Chimeras
Helcannon

You must be able to penetrate armor. As such, I recommend you go make Death choices on Morathi and perhaps go for Metal on your caddie as mentioned earlier, to get access to Searing Doom.

The Executioners are a pretty good idea against them. Warlocks are similarly as good. Beyond that, I like Cold One Knights with the Razor Standard and a couple of characters. Make sure to bring Flaming Attacks of some sort in case you find yourself up against Trolls or Chimeras.

Also, a trick I've learned from this forum is to take 6 man units of Dark Riders with a champion to hold up the Daemon Price for at least 1 turn. They have to challenge and you can accept - your champ gets murked but you have 5 models left and are steadfast. (1 rank vs. his 0 ranks)

Good luck.

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Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:43 pm
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Warrior

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thank you Lord Hajjij! actually it is a tourney so i od not really know what they will bring, but i know that more than 60% of people uses WoC...

death to penetrate armour? do you think that try to rely on okkam mindrazor would be a sucide option? I can then pit his hellcannon or chimeras or miasma/pit everything else..
i find that pit f shades is more reliable than purple sun when you have only one chance..


Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:16 am
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Relying on any one spell is a formula for failure. What's your plan if you just plain don't roll Mindrazor? What's your plan if it fails to go off in that crucial round?

You plan magic based on contingencies - IF I fail to roll Mindrazor, THEN I can depend on X to help balance the scales. IF he dispells it, I'll cast spell Y instead... or you only commit to that combat if you're sure it will last long enough to make getting the spell off likely. (Which is hard to do with glass cannons like Dark Elves).

And for contingencies, the signature spells are your bread and butter. Miasma, Searing Doom, Power of Darkness, Doombolt, Fireball, Wildform... if you fail to roll what you want, just how useful is the default spell with THIS army against THAT army?

That's the secret to magic planning. Don't depend on it, assume it will fail... and have a backup plan.


Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:12 pm
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I agree with Vulcan. Rarely would I say NOT to take the Lore of Shadow, because it's really amazing, but I suggested Death because you have a decent chance to get at least one spell that MIGHT be able to hurt the Daemon Prince. (Fate of Bjuna, Spirit Leech)

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Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:52 pm
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Sisters of Slaughter MURDER Chaos. The biggest weakness of sisters is shooting, which Chaos mostly doesn't have. They will destroy blocks of warriors. And most people that don't play dark elves don't know much about them, so they have a surprise effect that will work to your advantage.

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Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:08 pm
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No, they murder Chaos Warriors. They die in droves to anything with a Breath Weapon or a 1+ armor save.

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Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:47 pm
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One quick thing I always keep in the back of my mind is, that most Chaos Warriors have Initiative 5, negating our ASF Re-Rolls. However Witch Elves, Cold One Knights and Sisters of Slaughter have I6, which increases their worth against WoC.

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Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:25 am
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You can remove that from the back of your mind - Initiative 5 is not enough to negate the re-roll benefits of Always Strikes First. The enemy initiative must exceed your model's initiative in order to negate re-rolls.

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Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:58 pm
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Seems I have missed the "or the same as the enemy unit" part in that description.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake and sorry for any confusion I might have caused.

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Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:21 pm
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DarkSky wrote:
Seems I have missed the "or the same as the enemy unit" part in that description.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake and sorry for any confusion I might have caused.



Yeah, that is one of the things that makes elf on elf violence so beautifully nasty. We get rerolls on most of their stuff, they get rerolls on most of our stuff. Then add the hatred thing on top of that. Carnage is never in short supply. :)

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Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:32 pm
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Phierlihy wrote:
No, they murder Chaos Warriors. They die in droves to anything with a Breath Weapon or a 1+ armor save.


I do not fully agree. Yes they have difficulty with 1+ armor, and yes Breath Weapon template will kill them (but which other infantry survive flame templates?). What makes them good against Chaos is their 4+ ward save in combat, and as Warriors of Chaos wants to be in combat instead of out combat they shine against this particular army.

In normal cases Breath Weapon of Chimera in first round of combat will kill 2D6 models, therefore winning combat, but against Sisters that is at least 1/2 less. In theory they are even able to kill it in first round of combat (with a little luck on bad armour save rolls). Bring flaming banner to negate Regen. They also excell against Trolls, might be the same damage output as Witch Elves, but they take much less casualties in return, therefore winning combat !

They do murder Chaos Warriors as you said which is true. A lot of WoC do tend to bring at least one unit of them most of the times, the other main core option would be Chariots. There is no other unit better in taking a chariot charge as Sisters because of the 4+ ward save, even double charge of chariot which normally spells doom can be negated with a little luck. I once got 10 Sisters charged by Chariot and Hellcannon (only 3 wounds left), only 1 died because of Impact Hits, the rest killed off the Hellcannon and Chariot breaks from combat captured by the 9 sisters. Not only did they took out Hellcannon and Chariot in 1 round of combat, only 1 sister died in return.

Really the only thing you should prevent them for are Skullcrushers and Knights with their 1+ AS. But even then, they will not die in droves at all, as Warriors of Chaos does not excel at volume, but at quality of attacks, which in this case are negated by the 4+ ward and highest WS of all Dark Elf units.

WoC = always bring Sisters of Slaughter

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Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:40 pm
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I was under the impression that you can't parry impact hits or stomps.

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Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:09 pm
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You can't. Sisters have a flat-out ward save, not an extended parry save.

Straight from the DE Army book, p.45: "Dance of Death: Models with this special rule have a 4+ ward save against attacks made in close combat." There's more, but that's the relevant part.


Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:56 pm
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Direweasel - Always Strikes First versus Always Strikes First would cancel each other out. Other than Hatred, I'm not sure where you're getting all of these rerolls from.

Lord Drakon - If your Warrior of Chaos opponent just flew his monster straight into your block of Sisters of Slaughter, your opponent is either new or desperate. Instead he'll fly next to your unit and lay the flame template down a kill them. Plus plenty of Lords will also have a breath weapon. And then there's that Tzeentch spell... At 15 points per model, that's a lot of dead elves!

Sisters of Slaughter can be good against Warriors of Chaos. But so far I've been fairly unimpressed by them. Maybe the games I've watched with them have just been poor examples of their martial abilities and really are the best thing since sliced bread. But for me at least, they aren't yet.

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Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:56 pm
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Like most DE units, they take practice to figure out how to use them right, and some people's tactics are just plain not suited to their use. I can't make Bolt Throwers work to save my life, myself. But others here swear by them.

Fortunately, if SoS don't work for you, odds are either CoK or Executioners do... and both can do well against Warriors.


Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:33 am
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Phierlihy wrote:
Direweasel - Always Strikes First versus Always Strikes First would cancel each other out. Other than Hatred, I'm not sure where you're getting all of these rerolls from.


Yeah, you're right. I'll chalk that one up to not playing lately.

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Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:38 am
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I have a particular issue with Skullcrushers. I can't think of how to stop them, they're rolling a 4+ even against Execs, so I end up bating them round the board and sacrificing my Dark Riders.


Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:54 pm
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