My 2k 2 Manticore army.

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Rasputinii
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My 2k 2 Manticore army.

Post by Rasputinii »

I have been looking over a multitude of topics on this site and it has given me several ideas about what I want in an army, what would work in an army and what would just be plain sweet. Anyway, here is the results of my findings.

Its up for all forms of critism except one bit. The High Sorceress stays. I dont want to hear any one saying they think it is a waste of points. Critise as much else as you like except the HS. She is a no go area. The list has been created around the idea of her.

As for the second manticore you will be hard pressed to make me not take it. The high Sorceress needs a partner.

The thing that I am particulaly proud of is that I have managed to make the list have 3 major threats (the two manticores and the COKs), so the HS is not just the focus of all the enmies attcks.I also like the way it is as fast as hell, but still having a solic core (not core choices) to fall back on and to ensure that the enemy faces my deployment zone at aall times during the game.


Characters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malikah the High Sorceress 520pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Level 4 Wizard[40]; Dispel Scroll(x1)[25]; Tome of Furion[15]; Crown of Black Iron[35]
Mount: Manticore


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Armaya the Sorceress 187pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Level 2 Wizard[40]; Darkstar Cloak[20]; Seal of Ghrond[25]
Mount: Dark Steed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Karad Beastmaster 287pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Lance[4]; Armour of Darkness[25]
Mount: Manticore


Units

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

20 x Corsairs 225pts

Base: Two Hand Weapons; Light Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak
Options: Musician[5]; Champion[10]; Standard Bearer[10]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 x Dark Riders 151pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Spear;
Options: Repeater crossbow[6]; Musician[7]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 x Dark Riders 151pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Spear;
Options: Repeater crossbow[6]; Musician[7]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 x Cold One Knights 302pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield
Options: Champion[18]; Musician[9]; Standard Bearer[18]; War Banner[25]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 x Harpies 104pts

Base: Two Hand Weapons
Options: none


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 x Cold One Chariot 97pts

Base: 2 crew, 2 Cold Ones;Scythed Wheels; 4+ Armour Save
Options: Spear (Cavalry)[2]

1996pts in total
9 power dice
6 dispel dice
1 dispel scroll


Well what are your thoughts and opinions?
I have a cool idea for a harpie conversion - deamonettes with wings. Fits my slaanesh theme. Damn forgot to metion that. The army has a slaanesh theme. PINK, yay! I have been thinking about converting some modles for corsairs that are more slaaneshy and less piraty. Perhaps deamonettes on small bases. What do you guys think?
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Post by Lordmalusmark »

Nice, i like it. Your only lacking fire power and as i can see it you'll be in combat in your first or second turn so, all in all, i like it, i may even try it out one day. Long live your high sorceress, and may she black horror a unit of elves one day.
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Post by Clay »

Wow! This is exactly the sort of thing I've been looking at. It's got the terror with the speed to drive the other races off the table like the cattle they are without sacrificing magical support. I would swap the corsairs for a units of shielded RXB's with a musician (so versatile!) and one RBT. That's just so that everyone has always got something to do. I don't think they will run out of targets too quickly. They can stand on a hill and cover a flank while you execute a perfect refused flank maneuvre and roll up numerically superior armies (almost all of them).

My only problem would be how to model two manticores sufficiently different and whether two manticores is just too over the top from a fluff perspective. I was trying to create similar terror based fast army but I have one vice in that I absolutely love the executioner models (combined with the COKs they are the only reason I would collect the DE) and also the above problem so I've been messing around with hydras and the such. That reminds me... the chariot will probably also not get there fast enough and maybe a little unpredictable (not normally a problem for me since I'm a world eaters 40k player).

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Post by Marjamhew »

Beastmaster cannot now take Armour of Darkness :(
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Post by Rasputinii »

@Lordmalusmark: Cheers. Not much more to say.

@Clay: The RXB's and the RBT would be a waste. They would be left behind and anything left behind is a wste of points. The corsairs are need for rank bonus'. I also need one ranked unit in the army to keep the enmy focused forwards and not at all the light stuff. The chariot is there for a similar reason but it i to back up both the COKs and the Corsairs, giving a bit of pucnh for very few points. It should hit at the same time as the Corsairs and together they should be able to deal with units like saurus. Which is a major plus. I too like the executioner models, and on the battlefield they perform very well for their low points cost. they also make great conversions for nobles and high borns.

@marjamhew: So what can they take then. People are always telling me they can't have this or that. What can they take? Because I know of no rules saying they can't ware magic aarmour.
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Post by Rasputinii »

Here is Version 2.0

The change is in the character section. The beast master is mounted on a Dark Pegasis and I have put in a noble who will ride in the COC. Do you think this is a change for good or a change for the worse? I would really apreciate your input.



Characters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malikah (High Sorceress) 520pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Level 4 Wizard[40]; Dispel Scroll(x1)[25]; Tome of Furion[15]; Crown of Black Iron[35]
Mount: Manticore


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelorn (Dark Elf Noble) 134pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Great Weapon[4]; Heavy Armour[4]; Sea Dragon Cloak[6]; Deathmask[50]

++++Rides in the Chariot


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Karan (Beastmaster) 125pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Sea Dragon Cloak[6]; Lance[4]; Blood Armour[20]
Mount: Dark Pegasus


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Armaya (Sorceress) 187pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Level 2 Wizard[40]; Darkstar Cloak[20]; Seal of Ghrond[25]
Mount: Dark Steed


Units

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

20 x Corsairs 225pts

Base: Two Hand Weapons; Light Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak
Options: Musician[5]; Champion[10]; Standard Bearer[10]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 x Dark Riders 151pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Spear;
Options: Repeater crossbow[6]; Musician[7]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 x Dark Riders 151pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Spear;
Options: Repeater crossbow[6]; Musician[7]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 x Harpies 104pts

Base: Two Hand Weapons
Options: none


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 x Cold One Knights 302pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield
Options: Champion[18]; Musician[9]; Standard Bearer[18]; War Banner[25]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 x Cold One Chariot 97pts

Base: 2 crew, 2 Cold Ones;Scythed Wheels; 4+ Armour Save
Options: Spear (Cavalry)[2]
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Post by Misda »

I think its a cool idea to have two manticores in one army, but I would be very afraid of a high artillary army.
With a bit of bad luck, a dwarf or empire army would drop both of your manticores very quickly.

Tell us how it works out after a few games =)
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Post by Marjamhew »

I just played my newly finished manticore from Santa against dwarfs. How did it do?

Zero units failed their terror test. :(

It failed a charge on his cannon by 1/2 an inch, ending right in front of it. :(

By the time we had to finish he had killed one measly dwarf in light armour. :(

5 S5 attacks on his Runesmith in Gromril armour caused zero wounds. :(

On the plus side, my harpies had successfully charged the cannon killing two crew, so it could not fire at him the following turn. Also, the one dwarf was the last unbreakable crew member, which caused an entire unit of warriors to run off the table.

The game ended in a draw, having had my cavalry wiped out by his thunderers. I am hoping for more success next time.
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Post by Rasputinii »

Which list do you prefer though? The first or the second. The one with two manticores or the other one?
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Post by The word of pain »

I much prefer the first list... with a few changes, the second has one major Flaw in it (IMO). You are paying 50 points to upgrade fear to terror..... too much for too little gain. The chariot (therefore the noble riding it) already cause fear, so why pay 50 points to make it terror.... go for the 2 manticore first list!

A Beastmaster can still use the Armour of darkness... sort of. A current update on the GW site states they cannot, but as it isn't yet in the printed world, it isn't yet tournament legal. So keep on using it until it is.

Personally I prefer the tome on the level2 and the cloak on the level 4. It just gives the lvl2 a better chance of getting the spells you want. (50% chance to get whatever spell) The only time i would put the tome on the Lvl4 is if I'm going for lore of shadows and want unseen lurker.

I don't like the corsairs in this list... they will get left behind by all the other much faster stuff. You may wish to make a few changes here: (I haven't worked the points exactly, but they will be pretty close)

Drop the corsairs and take a third Dark rider unit as your 3 core.
Give all 3 Dark rider units banners, it can really tip a combat your way.
Make the Knights upto 9 models (It just works so much better with a 5 frontage.
Change the Chariot for a Hydra. (it's quicker over the ground and another terror causer)

If it's close on points you can:

reduce the harpies to 5 (they are a throw away unit anyway)
reduce the dark rider units to 5. (better at 5 with banner, than 6 without)

These changes would make you faster....harder hitting... more fun


Just some suggestions...
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Post by Rasputinii »

Personally I prefer the tome on the level2 and the cloak on the level 4. It just gives the lvl2 a better chance of getting the spells you want. (50% chance to get whatever spell) The only time i would put the tome on the Lvl4 is if I'm going for lore of shadows and want unseen lurker.

Now this is one thing I must stick up for. By giving the High sorceress the tome I can ensure I get either dominion or word of pain or both and black horror or soul stealer, or both. This is vital for her to be effective. It really is.

I don't like the corsairs in this list... they will get left behind by all the other much faster stuff. You may wish to make a few changes here: (I haven't worked the points exactly, but they will be pretty close)

Drop the corsairs and take a third Dark rider unit as your 3 core.
Give all 3 Dark rider units banners, it can really tip a combat your way.
Make the Knights upto 9 models (It just works so much better with a 5 frontage.
Change the Chariot for a Hydra. (it's quicker over the ground and another terror causer)


Very interesting, very interesting indeed. Deffinatly worth thinking about. I will work out if it is possible to do the changes, but you could well be right. As for the banner on the dark riders, I can see tat as a bad thing. Sure it gives the very useful +1 combat res, but it also give the enmy 100points if they kill a bunch of T3 5+ save guys, which is pretty easy. But the corsairs might work better. I mean they are not going to get that left behind, if I get my timing right (which is dubious). The thing with the hydar is that it bloody exxpensive for not actually that good a stat line. i mean it is only S5 and T5 and has only 5A. It just doesn't seem very good in combat. I am also worried about not having any ranked units in the army. Still Let me work out a revised list and you can tell me what you think. I have played DE before, but due to me loosing the army I have not that much experience to draw upon especially when it comes to all cav armies and way hydras (a dwarf and tomb kings player).
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Post by Rasputinii »

Like you suggested I ahve reworked the list to include the things you suggested, although that new unit of darkriders had to forgo their Xbows and I couldn't up the COK unit, but here is the new list:

Characters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malikah (High Sorceress) 520pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Level 4 Wizard[40]; Dispel Scroll(x1)[25]; Tome of Furion[15]; Crown of Black Iron[35]
Mount: Manticore


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beastmaster 259pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Lance[4]; Armour of Darkness[25]
Mount: Manticore


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Armaya (Sorceress) 187pts

Base: Hand Weapon
Options: Level 2 Wizard[40]; Darkstar Cloak[20]; Seal of Ghrond[25]
Mount: Dark Steed


Units

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 x Dark Riders 151pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Spear;
Options: Repeater crossbow[6]; Musician[7]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 x Dark Riders 151pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Spear;
Options: Repeater crossbow[6]; Musician[7]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 x Dark Riders 129pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Spear;
Options: Musician[7]; Standard Bearer[14]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 x Cold One Knights 302pts

Base: Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield
Options: Champion[18]; Musician[9]; Standard Bearer[18]; War Banner[25]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 x Harpies 78pts

Base: Two Hand Weapons
Options: none


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 x War Hydra 220pts

Base: 2 Apprentices with two-hand weapons each.
Options: none

I am slightly worried now that the army is too small and has no staying power. But I doo like the way it is about £15 cheaper :). Do you think it would work better though? I guess it would.
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Post by Nechra »

I liked the first army list, it had alot of strong points and its only weak one being shooting but if you close the gap fast enough that should't be a problem.

Just out of curiosity do you play morrowind?
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Post by Rasputinii »

Nechra wrote:I liked the first army list, it had alot of strong points and its only weak one being shooting but if you close the gap fast enough that should't be a problem.

Just out of curiosity do you play morrowind?



Yes, I love the game, why do you ask?
As for you saying the first army, does that mmean revised so it has a hydra or with the corsairs. I have started to go of the hydra idea. As units can only test for terror once then they will be testing from the flying manticores. I am thinking that I might just revert to the original list with a few minor modifications. How about this for an idea, drop the hydra and have a unit of executioners. Nah then thaat will be really pointless. Or would it? They would do more damage then Corsairs. I could even have a small unit of them and a chariot. What do you think> or just go back to corsairs. Or drop the corsairs and unr them into warriorsand have two chariots. Hmmmmmm
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Post by Hellmen50 »

:evil: I don't know where you'll get the points but you need at least one RBT.
On the plus you have five units/characters that cause fear/terror.
This list is better than the old list. :twisted:
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Post by Clay »

Well thanks for the inspiration and solving the problem I was trying to get my head around. You're right about the missile troops of course and now I have finally have all the bits I require in an army.

Two fast terror threats
One Hammer
One Finisher
Use of the favourite models, executioners and COKs
One magic weapon
Retain Magic Defence.

So here is my army which is just perfect for me.

General
High Sorceress (215) with extra level (40), Tome of Furion (15), Darkstar Cloak (20), Dispel Scroll (25) and Manticore (190) = 505

Heroes
Beastmaster (40) with lance (4), light armour (2), Sea Dragon cloak (6) and Seal of Grond (25) riding Manticore (190) = 267
Noble (70) with heavy armour (4), Sea Dragon cloak (6), Crimson Death (35) and Enchanted Shield (10) = 125

Core
5 Dark Riders (90) with repeater crossbows (30) and Musician (7) = 127
5 Dark Riders (90) with repeater crossbows (30) and Musician (7) = 127
5 Dark Riders (90) with repeater crossbows (30) and Musician (7) = 127

Special
10 Cold One Knights (290) with Musician (9), Standard Bearer (18) with War Banner (25) and Dread Knight (18) = 360
19 Executioners (209) with Musician (6), Standard Bearer (12) with Banner of Murder (45) and Draich-master (12) = 284
6 Harpies = 78

Total: 2000

The Executioners may look out of place being unable to influence the game early on but they are actually really fast with the banner of murder. With the noble in that unit as well you've got something that will really keep the opponent facing forwards. Well that's my excuse for including the cool models. Anyway my philosophy is the best crossbow bolt is one in the back. This army must drive the enemy off the battlefield like cattle. Anything that wavers gets ridden down by harpies and dark riders. The destruction of those units should in turn cause more tests. Terror basically reduces a numerical advantage by picking on low leadership. The unpredictability of what is going to run makes it difficult for the opponent to react whereas your COK and Executioners are capable of taking anything that's left behind down. Typically their toughest troops are the least likely to bolt so you have to have the heavy hitters. The COK must be 10 models or you're just making it harder to get an autobreak.

Clay
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Post by Comrade igor »

'Beastmaster (40) with lance (4), light armour (2), Sea Dragon cloak (6) and Seal of Grond (25) riding Manticore (190) = 267 '

i do not think it is a good idea to give a BM the seal, as they die too easily :x ;)

and ur sorceress will need a ward save other wise she is dead meat :(


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Post by The word of pain »

I'll start with your revised list....which is illegal... :?

Clay wrote:
General
High Sorceress (215) with extra level (40), Tome of Furion (15), Darkstar Cloak (20), Dispel Scroll (25) and Manticore (190) = 505



She cannot have both the seal and the Tome, they are both arcane items.... sorry! I also agree she needs a ward save.... badly. The Lvl4 on Manticore is a bit of a 'brave' tactic, to do it with no ward save is suicide for the Sorceress

Heroes
Beastmaster (40) with lance (4), light armour (2), Sea Dragon cloak (6) and Seal of Grond (25) riding Manticore (190) = 267



Reasonable, but I do prefer the Armour of Darkness option. As is he only gets a 5+ save in combat.



Noble (70) with heavy armour (4), Sea Dragon cloak (6), Crimson Death (35) and Enchanted Shield (10) = 125



Now this is where you are missing the point. If you are taking a lvl4 sorceress on a Manticore, you need to back her up with at least 1 lvl2. She isn't going to get too much magic off in a 2000 point game with only 7 casting dice. (You also loose the tome). This noble doesn't bring enough to the party to make him worth while, as is. If you want to go this way.... non magic heavy, then take a High Born on Manticore with GoP. (Better AS, better fighter). take a scroll caddy and your beastmaster/manticore. But I suspect you want decent magic as well, so this guy needs to give way for a lvl2.


Core
5 Dark Riders (90) with repeater crossbows (30) and Musician (7) = 127
5 Dark Riders (90) with repeater crossbows (30) and Musician (7) = 127
5 Dark Riders (90) with repeater crossbows (30) and Musician (7) = 127



I still prefer them with Banners. I always use banners and find them far more effective with them. Do not forget, you only loose the banner if you are defeated and then run from combat. With careful choices of where you do/don't fight, this will rarely happen. Add in the benifits of the standard when charging missile units and it is well worth the extra 14 points. If the unit is lost in any other way than being defeated in combat and being chased, you only loose an extra 14 pts for having the standard. NOT 114 pts.
Add in the combined charge in the side of a unit, with the suggested Hydra in the front (it out charges foot troops) and it can really tilt the combat your way. This is part of the reason I like Hydra's. I use one all the time. A nice Hydra/Dark Rider combined charge can really do some damage.



Special
10 Cold One Knights (290) with Musician (9), Standard Bearer (18) with War Banner (25) and Dread Knight (18) = 360
19 Executioners (209) with Musician (6), Standard Bearer (12) with Banner of Murder (45) and Draich-master (12) = 284
6 Harpies = 78



I still do not like foot troops in this army... everything else can charge turn 2, due to very long march/charge ranges... the executioners are dependant on a D6 to make it..... just personal preference really.[color=#FFFFFF][/color]
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Post by Clay »

Whoops!

Guess I'll have to rethink the sorceress thing. Thought you just couldn't have two of the same item. Tome and enchanted shield will have to give way to another scroll.

I'm not just designing the army to win BTW. The major consideration is what it look like and I like the terror tactic. I don't see the point of a ward save on a sorceress that will only be picking fights she can win and can use her mobility to avoid fire. The point of the sorceress is that she can take a manticore and simultaneously provide magic defense. One level 2 just isn't enough. A highborn saves lots of points but not actually that much as soon as you convert the fantastically cheap noble to the scroll caddy. Also the sorceress isn't too fragile after doubling her wounds to 6 with soul stealer.

I'll fiddle around and see if I can make it work the other way around. I need the noble for fluff purposes, to have a magic weapon to deal with ethereals and to boost that executioner unit. Besides needing an excuse to put executioners in, I think the combination of the threat of the executioners charging on turn 3 (or sooner if they advance) will cause even more problems for the opponent on turn 2 when things should really be hotting up with terror taking its toll and the cok charging.

As for the dark riders. Standards are 100 VP for the enemy from a 120 point unit when they die. Musician rallies them when they flee a charge to set up a flank charge.

Hmmm highborn and scroll caddy... just don't think the scroll caddy can do the job. Plus I have to escort her with another unit to keep her alive and that reduces their options.

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Post by Rasputinii »

What if she gets shot? Need I say an more? The HS does need a ward save, and the crown of black iron will provide very useful as it will also stop the dreaded drain magic from preventing you from casting spells.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Fellas, welcome to the fold! :) If you run searches on my name for both this forum and the Tactics forum, you'll find a LOT of stuff about running the High Sorc/manticore option. I've been an advocate of it for quite some time now, despite early opposition, and I'll tell you, it's a lot of fun. Feel free to pm me if you want to chat about it.

As for Nevereine's list, your command group is identical to mine, it works well. Army-wise, I decided to go all beasts, so I have all DR core, some chariots and harpies for special, and two hydras for my real meat. It's pretty sick, but fun. And themed. ;)
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Post by The word of pain »

Clay wrote:
As for the dark riders. Standards are 100 VP for the enemy from a 120 point unit when they die. Musician rallies them when they flee a charge to set up a flank charge.

Clay


Only if they run from combat... read my post again, your'll see it explained there well enough. It's one of those options that has had board memebers arguing for years. I have always adovated it, and it works well for me. Others don't like it and that's fine for them. All I'm doing is giving you my opinion based on my experiance of using 'Lots' of Dark riders in my army lists for a very long time.
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Post by Rasputinii »

@Maraith Tuerl:
I can't decided wether to do a 2 manticore army, based on what I have above, with some changes, or whether to go for a MSU/E list (which I have posted on this board). I was wondering, could you combine both? Having two manticores, but having a MSU/E list?

Also, I was wondering if you could tell me how the army fares and against who. I do plan to go to tournies soon, but for the moment the army is to play my friends, who you use big base tough troops. They generally utilise big powerful, punchy blocks (like 20 saurus in a block, 3 bloacks + other stuff).

I would really apreciate your advice and input.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

So far, most of my experience w/ this army has been against Chaos of Slaanesh. My army is MSE, effectively, as I have no ranks or standards anywhere. It's the 2 manticore + sorc version you have above, but the core choises are 3 x 5 DR w/ RXB, 2 x 5 DR w/o RXB, 2 x chariots, 5 x harpies, and 2 x hydras (that's at 2250, which is what we normally play).

Right now, my biggest worries are the fast heavies (all chaos knight armies, f/e), and the slow heavies (dwarfs). The dwarfs have war machines to gun down my fliers if I let them, and they're reliable thanks to the runes. They also are backed up by some tough fighters, who are resilient to most of my psychological stuff. Chaos knights, I just have a hard time cracking open.

That's not to say it's a done deal, though. Against dwarfs, if they don't deploy as a castle on a hill, I can figure ways around them, get in between, avoid the artillery until the right time,adn so on. Against the Chaos knights, I can dance adn block and whittle them down with magic until a combined charge is offed. It's just a lot harder than against others.
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Rasputinii
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Post by Rasputinii »

Do you like the army though?
I mean the style of army? I guess it works fairly well.

Would it work with a infantry core (A few units of DR - but units like EXEs and corsairs and stuff like that). Have you tried this sort of thing?

I'm sorry if this sounds like the spanish Inquisiton. I don't mean it too. Im just a bit blunt thats all. :)
Pleased to be back
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