2250pts for WPS GT List and Report

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2250pts for WPS GT List and Report

Post by Keledron »

Final report
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=568992#568992

Final List
WPSvKelEntry
High Sorceress 535pts
extra level, Tome of Furion, Life Taker, Heart-stone of Darkness
mounted on Manticore

Noble 98pts
Heavy Armour & Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, lance
mounted on Dark Steed

Sorceress 167pts
extra level, Dispel Scroll
mounted on Dark Steed

Sorceress 175pts
extra level, DarkStar Cloak Dispel Scroll

10 Warriors 120pts
Repeater crossbows & Shields

10 Warriors 120pts
Repeater crossbows & Shields

5 Dark Riders 127pts
Repeater crossbows, Musician

5 Dark Riders 104pts
Standard
18 Executioners 273pts
Draich master, Musician, Standard Banner of Murder

9 Harpies 117pts

2 Cold One Chariot 194pts
Spears

War Hydra 220pts

The Original Thread
With the Tournament season firmly upon us here in the UK here's my initial ideas around what I will be using for this years WPS GT. its a synthesis of many other lists with a bit of my personal preferences thrown in.

Highborn 536pts
Lance, Web of Shadows, Armour of darkness, Crown of Black Iron
mounted on Black Dragon

Sorceress 180pts
Extra Level, 2 Dispel Scrolls

Noble 114pts
Heavy Armour, Lance, Enchanted Shield
mounted on Cold One to lead Executioner unit

13 Warriors 161pts
Shields and Repeater crossbows, Musician

20 Warriors 175pts
Spears and Shields, Standard bearer and Musician

5 Dark Riders 120pts
Repeater crossbows

6 Dark Riders 122pts
Strandard bearer

16 Executioners 251pts
Draitch Master, Musician Standard bearer with Banner of Murder

6 Shades 84pts

7 Harpies 91pts

2 Cold One Chariots 194pts
Spears

War Hydra 220pts

2248pts, 81 models, 3DD, 2 Scrolls

The aim is to produce an irrersitable massed infantry assault with my big blocks providing some static CR whilst my Lord and chariots hopefully kill a few of the enemy.

The Shades and Dark Riders are there primarily to act as screens and slow the enemy allowing me to manouver the Warriors and Executioners into position with the Banner of Murder hopefully giving a few people a nasty surprise or two. I chose Executioners over Witch Elves purely for thier effectiveness against heavy armour (oh and I got 3 more models). The Noble goes in the Executioner Unit to boost its defensive capacity and the Sorceress will probably get shadow Magic for the odd chance of a Steed of Shadows with him.

The harpies will get used for warmachine hunting and crossfire purposes. Altogether I have some 6 highly mobile units which can be used in this role.

With only 3DD and the 2 scrolls I will need to be getting into combat fairly early so an agressive movement phase is called for but with 5 missile armed units I still push out a reasonable amount of firepower and can threaten multiple small sized target units and the Draon Breaths extra ability can be really handy.

So thoughts welcome

Kel
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=46040&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25
Last edited by Keledron on Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:47 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Post by Ant »

I like mate. As you probably know the 13 strong rxb unit is a firm favorite of mine at the moment and I like the rest too. Personally I'd go for COK over COC but that's more because I love my COK models than any real tactical reason.

I was confused as to the noble being on foot until I saw your Steed of Shadows idea. However I still think you'd be better off mounting him and going for death rather than shadows. My reasoning being that you aren't likely to get much off and the odd magic missile tends to be more reliable a spell if that is the case. it can do damage every turn in the game where tactical shadows spells can be ignored and the scrolls can be pulled on them in the turns they will be at their most dangerous.

I'd be tempted to find a way to get one of your DR units up to 7 with a banner too. But I seem to remember you are still in the camp that dislikes that setup. I just feel that a bit of mobile hittyness would be more useful than a bit more annoying shooting power. Since you are predominently infantry then I'd think a unit such as this would be invaluble.

Oh, and no rbts? Points problems or did you set out not to include them? I'm beginning to come around to the idea that they aren't always essential but I'm still slightly surprised to not see them make an appearance in a list like this. Having said that I dunno what I'd lose to get them in though.

Hope I gave you at least something to think about matey :D
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)
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Post by Dictator »

Oh, and no rbts? Points problems or did you set out not to include them? I'm beginning to come around to the idea that they aren't always essential but I'm still slightly surprised to not see them make an appearance in a list like this. Having said that I dunno what I'd lose to get them in though.

I agree since most of the time I try to get into combat asap, it seems more and more like I lose a lot troopers to the enemies shooting.

While saying that, I do believe it is a good list. I like the tactics, it sounds quite like the list will work as long as there is something to get the flank on. The hydra does seem like an even better choice than the CoC for helping out your infantry. Which is why I might have decided to go CoK instead, and in so doing you will be able to create a few more problems before the main part of your Army can get into HtH.

Do let us know how it is going in "Practice for the tourney land!"
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Post by Keledron »

@Ant,

I've shamelessly nicked the 13 warriors from your list! I spent some time trialing it and with the rules changes it is definately a more solid unit than my previously preffered 12 man units.

I like chariots the T5 is always nice to have though I could use knight butr as I liketo place one on either end of the battle line it leaves one end exposed.

I'm not keen on the mounted hero in foot troops thing but I may relent and take him on a Cold One for the fear/AS benefit - I'll just bin the Crimson Death if I do.

No RBT's was a concious decision i didn't want anything standing around waiting to get killed but DA and I were chatting yesterday and I may try and rework the DR units to get 1 in the list for some rather devious reasons!

7DR don't work for me I want as many crossfire capable units as possible and this way I have 6 at least potential units to do this with plus I like the multiple targetting options the mobility of the DR units gives. I've watched Ras play a couple of games with the 7 model units and I'm definately not convinced by them as a general option vs non-missile armies then maybe but not as a general option.

I'd like to have 2 x 6 with RXB's but simply don't have the points. This has always beenmy preffered number and seems to be especially useful now with wider formations in general.

Though thinking about it I could do 6 Dark Rider with a Banner in and 5 with rxb's which might be more useful and doesn't require any more points to be found.
Last edited by Keledron on Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Haplo »

Could you elaborate on the 13 elf strong rxb unit?
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Post by Keledron »

13 is one of those magical number in warhammer for small units.

With 13 you need to loose 4 to take a first panic test which makes them less vulnerable to mundanne missile units and D6 magic missiles than more regular units of 10 or 12. With minimal luck the enemy will need to kill 6 models before you start testing at all.

3 causualties leaves 10 no panic test yet.
3 kills still required now to cause panic

Again, you need to loose 4 to remove the the potential of having a point of CR if you rank them up, which as they have a 4+ save from the front and can still fire off 10 shots, not so bad.

Also you can form up 6/6/1 still shoot and be somewhat hard to shift for most fast cavalry or skirmish units and even the odd low quality ranked unit (Gobbos/Clanrats/Marauders come to mind).

Ant can probably add a few more comments as well or a link to his thread on the subject

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Re: 2250pts for WPS GT

Post by Dark Alliance »

Keledron wrote:With the Tournament season firmly upon us ...

Highborn 536pts
Lance, Web of Shadows, Armour of darkness, Crown of Black Iron
mounted on Black Dragon

This I like, especially consdering my plans for the return of Blade. And nothing looks cooler than a dragon leading an infantry mass. The tactical options are kinda obvious so now dwelling here.

Sorceress 180pts
Extra Level, 2 Dispel Scrolls

This I'm not too sure about. Especially as we need points for an rbt. We have had this discussion many times and I know I have relented on ocassion but not this time.

Noble 114pts
Heavy Armour, Lance, Enchanted Shield
mounted on Cold One to lead Executioner unit


Kinda undecided about this. Whilst there is no doubt it will look good on the table, I think I would need to trial it myself for a while. Options of a chariot mount may just be better. The BoM effect is buggered if he goes stupid remember.

13 Warriors 161pts
Shields and Repeater crossbows, Musician

'nuff said.

20 Warriors 175pts
Spears and Shields, Standard bearer and Musician

5 Dark Riders 120pts
Repeater crossbows

6 Dark Riders 122pts
Strandard bearer

[color=cyan]Above three are all standard stuff. 7 DRs? Nah!!


16 Executioners 251pts
Draitch Master, Musician Standard bearer with Banner of Murder[/color]

Great stuff. As for the Noble+cold one :? Why the BoM and not the war banner for increased resilience?

6 Shades 84pts

7 Harpies 91pts

2 tricky units that could be used to great effect by offering the opponent to think he has the advantage over you when the 'tactical wheel' FAQ comes out. Figure you know what I mean there buddy. ;)

Other than that, standard units but with a more lethal potential in 7th ed.


2 Cold One Chariots 194pts
Spears

War Hydra 220pts

2248pts, 81 models, 3DD, 2 Scrolls

The aim is to produce an irrersitable massed infantry assault with my big blocks providing some static CR whilst my Lord and chariots hopefully kill a few of the enemy.

The Shades and Dark Riders are there primarily to act as screens and slow the enemy allowing me to manouver the Warriors and Executioners into position with the Banner of Murder hopefully giving a few people a nasty surprise or two. I chose Executioners over Witch Elves purely for thier effectiveness against heavy armour (oh and I got 3 more models). The Noble goes in the Executioner Unit to boost its defensive capacity and the Sorceress will probably get shadow Magic for the odd chance of a Steed of Shadows with him.

I read through the lores again last night. Assuming you won't favour Shadow now with the Noble change, but Death is far superior IMO anyway.

The harpies will get used for warmachine hunting and crossfire purposes. Altogether I have some 6 highly mobile units which can be used in this role.

With only 3DD and the 2 scrolls I will need to be getting into combat fairly early so an agressive movement phase is called for but with 5 missile armed units I still push out a reasonable amount of firepower and can threaten multiple small sized target units and the Draon Breaths extra ability can be really handy.

So thoughts welcome


RBT

Kel

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Post by Keledron »

Noble - trouble with a chariot is I really want to put him in my Exec unit. For the reasons stated priously. Plus thern I'd have to buy them back and make a new model for him which I don't have the time for currently.

BoM gives me a better charge range I don't really want the Executioners getting hit too often and with the BoM it's pretty likely the unit itself can charge as far as most heavy cavalry which will give them a surprise :evil:

Magicwise Death or Dark would be better with the change opposition dependant.

I just can't see a way to find enough points for the RBT's without swopping them for the hydra which I don't want to do.

Even if I drop the sorceress to a L1 and the BoM to a WB and the spare DR I'm still 20+ points short. So where do they come from?
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Post by Lord hajjij »

Why is everyone taking a dragon now-a-days? :?
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Post by Haplo »

because its cool and the new "enemy in the way" rule benefits large target flyers!
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Post by Lord hajjij »

While I conceed the point of enemy in the way I beg to differ that it is 'cool'.

In fact I think it is a crutch and they are overpowered.
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Post by Keledron »

@LH

From a personal point of view they are simply too effective with the 7th Ed rules to be discounted as a competative option.

Sure you don't need one in a list but, if you've spent the money on the big model then why not take it when opportunity presents; for the WPS event I have an extra 250 points compared to the more usual 2k so why not spend a bit extra putting a big spiffy model on the table top for a change.

This will be the first time I've used one in a tournament though I've used all the other options including the maligned HS on Manticore so it's about time to give him a go.
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Post by Lord hajjij »

Keledron wrote:@LH

From a personal point of view they are simply too effective with the 7th Ed rules to be discounted as a competative option.


Is this a masked confession to them being broken? :D

Just so you know Kel, it wasn't a shot at you, or calling you beardy or anything. Im a fluff bunny at heart, so its disturbing to me to see every list with a dragon. One of the reasons why I love DE is that there is no "cookie cutter" army like slaanesh demons or HE all cav.
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Post by Benji »

hi matey,

like the list but have a few questions.

first one is what the hell tournament season are you working on??? wps gt being at the end of it not the start!!! lol

seriously though, if you havn't got a ticket yet get one sorted soon as there are less than 20 places left.

now on to the list,

i'm liking the dragon but i can't see the point of the web of shadows. any target soft enough to be hurt by it will be ripped apart by the dragon and rider anyway. i have a few ideas what it can be used for but i still can't see the point of it. a magic weapon is a must nowadays so i'd swap it for sword of might or crimson death, although that obviously means no armour of darkness, so i'd go for blood armour. i also don't see the reason for the crown instead of finding the points for the heartstone.

the level 2 sorceress is ace. no wasting a power dice and a good threat of getting a big spell off. i go for shadow, most of the spells are pretty effective, but to get the most of it you would need to run the noble on foot. steed is good. creeping death is ace now. the fear spell is great on the harpies, or terror causing chariots!! and the pit os shades and lurker is a constant threat that wouldn't be there if you had a lv1.

you know all this anyway.....

regarding the hydra, i'd take a dogs of war giant. it's 15 pts cheaper and loads better. the extra 15pts can go towards getting in the RBT you seem to want
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Post by Keledron »

@HJ

I don't take much personally so fear not to offend. As you asked about draon lists I thought it fair that I give you an answer as to why my current list has one in it.

DE are my great passion in WHFB and it's the infinate variety in what you could use that I like.

Dragons. As to brokenness I don't generally hold that view of dragons though the cost is maybe a bit on the low side.

@Benji

As to tickets I have had the option on one since the CC which I have taken up and I shall definately be in attendance work permitting this year.

The Web this is purely for those days when I want to get rid of a few etherals Spirit Hosts can be a real pain otherwise I tend to find.

My model has a lance so to comply with WYSWIG that's my weapon so it only leaves me few options of what to take to avoid confusion. As I agree a MW is essential in some form.

The Heartstone could be fitted in by doing the armour swop but although it is less effective I like the crown for the extra little bit of magic defence it gives particularly vs the HE's. Starting saves of 4/4 or 2/5. I'll think about it a bit.

One alternative for the dragon I tried out was this:

Lord, Lance, Shield of Ghrond, Heavy Armour, Heartstone of Darknesss on the Dragon

It proved surprisingly effective vs missile fire though combat was less beneficial due to being T3.

As to the Giant I simply don't like using DoW unless I play them as the army it's purely a personal thing and is in no way rational it's just my gut feeling on it. But worth thinking about.

The RBT is a bit of an unknown quantity of an idea which DA and I have been thinking about when facing Brets in particular they are handy.
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Post by Enfant terrible »

benji wrote:regarding the hydra, i'd take a dogs of war giant. it's 15 pts cheaper and loads better. the extra 15pts can go towards getting in the RBT you seem to want


If you do decide on trying out DoW - why not try the Ogre Maneaters?? (can of course only be done if you continue a setup without RbT's).
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Post by Rasputinii »

Looks awfully like a certain list that a certain player qualified with in a certain heat...

Other then that I like it, but then thats because its already been proved to work :P. Didn't put you down as a Copy Cat mate...
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Post by Danceman »

RasputinII wrote: Didn't put you down as a Copy Cat mate...
´

Who cares? Are lists that wins heats in the GT copyrighted all of the sudden?

Its a known chains of events, someone tries a list ==> list works ==> people want to see if they can make it work ==> the list is played awhile ==> passed into general knowledge ==> a new list evolves and the chain starts all over.
(I do tend to give credit to players I blatantly borrow a list from, even if I change some stuff!)

-

As for the list, looks like a well rounded dragon list. Nothing special but looks good. Got nothing else to add that hasnt already been said.
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Post by Malda »

Could you speak a little bit more about your deployment and army set-up plans?

I play "massive" infantry with dragon for about two years, so i am realy curious what you have in your head :)

and few comments:
swap AoD and CoBI for Heartstone and fullarmour youll lose 1 save in combat to gain 1 point of ward for only 3 more points...

And the Rbt is a must! iam a bit lucky, because ill play 2500 tournament now, so I can afford them :)

And at the end big NO to the coldone, swap it for steed, you realy dont need your exes stupid...
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Post by Keledron »

@ Ras I'm not going to even bother.
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Post by Frankthetank »

Haplo wrote:because its cool and the new "enemy in the way" rule benefits large target flyers!


Enemy in the way rule ? do you mean crossfire ?
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Post by Keledron »

@ Frank no they are two separate rules.

All

Have had a radical rethink about the list and am considering this as a posible alternative the overall strategy is the same relying on a couple of large infantry units supported by flanking rank breakers. It should please Ras as its a bit more radical than the dragon list which is admittedly very middle of the road though I do have some development ideas for it concerning a BSB and knights which I might well nick of Dark Alliance if he doesn't get his new list posted soon.

Well here's Option 2

WPS GT vKel2.0

High Sorceress
extra level, Dispel Scroll, Crown of Black Iron, Wand of Karaidon
mounted on Manticore

Noble, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Great Weapon and Death Mask

Sorceress
extra level, Dispel Scroll

Sorceress
extra level Web of Shadows.

20 Warriors Spears & Shields
Standard and Musician

13 Warriors, Repeater crossbows & Shields, musician

6 Dark Riders, Standard bearer

18 Executioners
Draitchmaster, Musician, Standard Banner of Murder

9 Harpies

Cold One Chariot, spears

Cold One Chariot

War Hydra

2249pts

This option lacks the overt killy power of the Dragon but has a much improved magic phase which should more than offset the loss of the shade and DR unit. the noble, who will be my general can join either of the rank units depending on the need protecting them from psychology and keeping Ld9 close to my chariots. By taking shadow magic on the L2 with the scroll I can use her to throw my other L2 around to either deliver the Web into a handy lone enemy or get her closer to the enemy if required for her spells, making the scroll caster the shadow mage may allow me to surprise a few opponents who would be possibly expecting her to have the web.

The High sorceress though not as potent as ther dragon rider still has the ability to rank bust and gives me another useful crossfire unit especially armed with the wand for a nasty extra D6 S5's when I get her in to position. The crown again gives me a bit of added magic protection though with 6DD and 2 scrolls I'm fairly comfortable against most opponents if tit takes me a while to reduce thier mages. Also with the extra casters there's a good chance I can get the harpies causing fear early on which makes the bigger unit mucjh more effective vs several opponents or for a rear/flank attack in combo with my infantry units.

Overall the list is a bit smaller but with probably a lot more options of strategy. Lets here what you think and I'll spend some time looking at optimising the list and maybe getting just a bit more shooting in there.

Kel
Last edited by Keledron on Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lord hajjij »

I'm not sure if I would rather not have the Heart Stone on the High Sorceress. No matter which you choose, I think you should move the dispel scroll onto one of the level 2s. Mainly because I think you want her as cheap as possible as she will be the #1 target in your army. Spread the points around...it doesnt matter where that dispel scroll is, but it gives your opponent 25 less VP if she dies.

If you drop a rxb warrior you have the points for the upgrade from CoBI to the HSoD and spears for your second chariot. I assume you are using 13 to help against panic tests, but I think it is unnecessary insurance with ld9 personally.
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Post by Keledron »

I'm still undecided about the crown vs heart stone both options have thier advantages against certain opponents and I suspect that will result in a last minute decision as to which one I take.

I don't want to make the web sorceress more expensive as she is probably going to be sacrificed in several games and having both scrolls on the other L2 is a risky move so whilst the HS is target#1 I'm quite comfortable with the risks.

One change I'm actively considering swopping the Wand for a Dark Star Cloak on the HS to give her an extra dice and freeing up 20 points to replace the changes I've made in the latest version of the list.

WPS GT vKel2.1

High Sorceress 545pts
extra level, Dispel Scroll, Crown of Black Iron, Wand of Kharaidon
mounted on Manticore

Noble 128pts
Heavy Armour, Halberd and Death Mask

Sorceress 155pts
extra level, Dispel Scroll

Sorceress 155pts
extra level Web of Shadows.

20 Warriors 175pts
Spears & Shields with Standard and Musician

13 Warriors 156pts (or 161)
Repeater crossbows & Shields (and Musician if take Crown)

6 Dark Riders 122pts
Standard

18 Executioners 273pts
Draich master, Musician, Standard Banner of Murder

9 Harpies 117pts

2 Cold One Chariot 194pts
Spears

War Hydra 220pts

2245pts 6DD and 2 scrolls
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Post by Lord hajjij »

Love it. When I suggested that you move the scroll to the non web sorceress I didnt think about the risk of her getting killed early and losing 2 scrolls. In hindsight I think you made the right choice.

Really looks good. Maybe put the noble on a dark steed so he can spread terror a bit better, an also run with the bannered dark riders to make it a formiddible unit?
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

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