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Thoughts on remaking my 6th edition list 
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Rotting skull on the Glottkin trail
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Ok guys. Now if you will remember my 6th edition army - my brainchild - influenced by minds like the infamous Baron DeSade, as well as many people from this site...you will realize that with the introduction of some new rules in 7th edition forced it into oblivion. Mainly due to the rule forcing us to make our units 5 wide...this destroyed the dreaded 16-strong w/mus fully ranked 133pt expendible super unit of doom. A sad, sad day indeed (but happy for my opponents to say the least)

However, a few good things came out of 7th. First, the fact that there are going to be far, far less Str7 things running around blowing up my chariots, as now Str7 is mostly delegated to being on foot so I can most likely avoid them (well, hopefully...damn JSoD and wolf thralls). Second, points values for the standard game has gone up to 2250pts, so I can include more stuff. And finally, magic has been restructured so that you cannot have 'PD batteries' hanging around fueling uber powerful casters which was one of the weaknesses of my army. So all in all, I'd say its a wash.

So I basically come here looking for some idea, some inspiration, to change my list from 6th to 7th edition. Before we go any farther my OLD list:

Highborn DoDP, Black Amulet
Sorceress, lvl1 w/scroll, seal

4x16 Warriors sh, mus
2x12 Warriors sh, rxb
4x5 Dark Riders rxb

4 Chariots sp


This is what I came up with (very quickly) for the 7th edition list

Highborn DoDP, Black Amulet, Dark steed
Sorceress, lvl2 w/scroll, seal

4x20 Warriors sh, mus
5x5 Dark Riders rxb, 3 w/ standards

4 Chariots, sp
5 Shades
5 Harpies


Thoughts on this please. Do the spearmen blocks become too expensive to be used in the same way as the 16 blocks? Dark Riders too expensive? Standards unesessary? (there were several instances in my old army they would have been nice) Shades and Harpies not needed? Should I strive for a 3 lvl2 sorceress magic phase?

Thoughts needed. I am suffering from the army list creator's version of writer's block.

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So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

-Sun Tzu


Last edited by Lord hajjij on Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:58 pm
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M-A-D
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It seems fine really. The addition of the extra harrassers are nice, and will add a bit more flexibility. Ultimately it will play like your old list which I remember you having a great deal of success with. Ultimately you just gotta get it on the table. Like you say it really is your brain child and an idea that basically only you play with 9to the best of my knowledge at least), so only once you play with it will you know if its gonna do what you want.

Seems good from my POV (resisting the urge to suggest things that dn't fit your idea).

Ras

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:15 pm
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Adept of Khaine
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Looks pretty good. It sucks to see the loss of RXB elves though. I can see some merit in losing 1 DR unit (standard or no standard, your choice) to have a unit of 10 crossbows.

How often does the black amulet go off for ya BTW? Nobody really uses it besides you.

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:23 pm
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RasputinII wrote:
Seems good from my POV (resisting the urge to suggest things that dn't fit your idea).

Ras


Actually, I would like to hear what you have to say (as long as it doesn't change the basics of the list)

Its going on the tabletop this weekend for 3 or 4 games, I know its gonna play like my old list however I put it up here for some insight from other players.

cheers for the reply Ras, I know you had a lot to do with the first list, as well. :D

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:26 pm
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- Human wrote:
Looks pretty good. It sucks to see the loss of RXB elves though. I can see some merit in losing 1 DR unit (standard or no standard, your choice) to have a unit of 10 crossbows.


Please expand on this. Why would you rather see the RxBelves? Before, they were 12 strong (typo in my original list) so they could be ranked up 4x3 if necessary. However, I am disenchanted with units of 10 for some reason. I would like to hear your thoughts - Human.

Quote:
How often does the black amulet go off for ya BTW? Nobody really uses it besides you.


Not too often, because I rarely take ward saves. My highborn is rarely attacked in the course of a normal game. That is because he usually declares charges by himself, either out of units, while chillin' on his own (harder to do in 7th) in conjuction with spearelves and chariots, which normally gets him just on the edge in B2B with one model.

However, he makes an excellent duellist. Sometimes you get unlucky and he dies, but sometimes the BA really comes through. I remember a specific game about 6+ months ago when he was charged by a flying strigoi LORD and was hit and wounded 5 times (lord has 6 hatred attacks) but rebounded 3 of them. The DoDP finished him off when i returned attacks. This is really not that obsurb of a scenario...I mean, how many times have you rolled 5 dice and got 3 5+'s? Its kind of a nifty little item, as long as you can protect your character from shooting (meaning, having him on foot ;) )

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:41 pm
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Quote:
Please expand on this. Why would you rather see the RxBelves? Before, they were 12 strong (typo in my original list) so they could be ranked up 4x3 if necessary. However, I am disenchanted with units of 10 for some reason. I would like to hear your thoughts - Human.


Well, because of the type of army you're running, it's just another support unit that can take out annoying enemy support, in a slightly different way from your dark riders. I just find that 5 dark rider units might be a bit redundant (no that I've tried it, but I figure 4 would get the job done), and since you incorporated the RXB elves in your earlier versions, I figure you know how to use them well - I don't really need to explain to you why they're good. It's a bummer they don't have the 4x3 option anymore, but it's still a nifty, versatile little unit. You could even just throw crossbows on one of your main 4 spear units! Having somewhat of a "central" unit, that can fight like the rest but also lay down some major fire support (esp. against large targets - i figure a unit like this would essentially kill a giant in 2 turns max of shooting).

I'm too lazy to run the stats (busy with my own stats assignment as we speak), but it would be interesting to see what kind of normal save is best to have with the amulet. If I'm wounded 6 times, I want those goin to the black amulet, not my heavy armour and cold one.

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:01 pm
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Yes you are right, those units of 12 RxBelves were my MVPs really. I think they are invaluble to the list, I just kinda was disenchanted that I couldn't use the 12 anymore to the same effect and just said F it and took more dark riders. Thinking that maybe 15 could work in the same role as the 12, and with the 250 point bonus Im getting in my list, I could certainly fit it in.

I am against putting the RxBs on one of the main units just because it makes them very expensive. I want each and every unit to be as disposible as possible.

What do you think of getting a little crazy, and dropping the shields on all the spear elf units, dropping both the shades and the harpies, dropping a couple dark rider units and adding in 2 20 strong executioner units. A little expensive, but that is 2 more large units to have to deal with, in addition to the spears and the chariots. I think this would be teetering (sp?) on the edge of having too many ranked units, making my static CR redundant, but something about me is attracted to the idea immensly

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:20 pm
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Whoah! Certainly a radical idea. I don't see a problem adding ranked execs, but it's at a huge cost. Shades and harpies play an important role... I think it's best to keep one of them. Maybe just add one unit of 20?

As for the shields, sadly I think they're mandatory. With a 6+ save they'll be giving the enemy as much CR as theyre gaining through ranks, no? The 4+ saves are good so that your +3 rank bonus stays at +3 and +2 for as long as possible.

I recently got my hands on a new box of warriors, and gave them crossbows. But I'm also stuck on how to equip a unit of RXBs in 7th. Let's look at the options (all with shields)...

10 - bare minimum, still effective
13 - somewhat of a magic number, takes a lot of killing to make them take a panic test! Got this idea from Kel.
15 - can rank up to make a decent unit.

(note how none of these are as good as the old 12... :roll: )
Also, any of these formations can have a standard. Look at hwo joe sturge used his wood elf glade guard with standards and won the GT (was it the GT?). With a standard, and outnumber, he was beating things like tomb scorpions and other units that generally attack archers. If that worked for no save elves, imagine how effective it could be for 4+ save elves! I'm really tempted to put a standard on my RXBs. Just an idea for you.

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:23 pm
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Pear elves without shields are a bad idea . . . a 6+ save doesn't cut it for a combat unit unless it has the capability of dealing a lot of damage itself to make up for it. And spear elves son't fit that description.

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:26 pm
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- Human wrote:
Whoah! Certainly a radical idea. I don't see a problem adding ranked execs, but it's at a huge cost. Shades and harpies play an important role... I think it's best to keep one of them. Maybe just add one unit of 20?


I actually quite like the idea of having ranked units of exe's actually, the more and more I think about it. However, something tells me that I am spending just too many points on ranks at this point. Too many ranked units can be a bad thing...it doesn't seem that there are enough combats to add ranks to at some point...after all, even with 2 full ranked units in a combat, you still only get the +3 bonus, so all those points seem wasted. I think if I was going to do this, I would go either one unit, or drop 1 unit of spears.

Quote:
As for the shields, sadly I think they're mandatory. With a 6+ save they'll be giving the enemy as much CR as theyre gaining through ranks, no? The 4+ saves are good so that your +3 rank bonus stays at +3 and +2 for as long as possible.


You are right...before, I was thinking...well I reall don't care what happens to them anyway, so I might as well make them as cheap as possible. However I should have known that the ROI for shields is just too good to pass up. I probably would have passed on light armor if I could tho.

Quote:
I recently got my hands on a new box of warriors, and gave them crossbows. But I'm also stuck on how to equip a unit of RXBs in 7th. Let's look at the options (all with shields)...

10 - bare minimum, still effective
13 - somewhat of a magic number, takes a lot of killing to make them take a panic test! Got this idea from Kel.
15 - can rank up to make a decent unit.


I dont really like the units of 10 and 13, because I think they aren't flexible enough. The 12 rxbmen in 6th was the ultimate flexible unit...they could deploy in a variety of formations and add/remove ranks in a single turn to fill many differnt roles...just too good really. I think 15 would be just as good, now that I sit down and think about it. However I want them to remain as non-threatening as possible because they tend to get ignored. 15 is starting to look very juicy in an army where finding VPs is hard to come by.

Quote:
(note how none of these are as good as the old 12... :roll: )
Also, any of these formations can have a standard. Look at hwo joe sturge used his wood elf glade guard with standards and won the GT (was it the GT?). With a standard, and outnumber, he was beating things like tomb scorpions and other units that generally attack archers. If that worked for no save elves, imagine how effective it could be for 4+ save elves! I'm really tempted to put a standard on my RXBs. Just an idea for you.


I think you are REALLY onto something here -Human, but I just dont think it has a place in a sort of unorthodox army like this. I think units of 10-15 rxbelves (as you have outlined above) could really use a standard, for the reasons you gave. However, my rxbs must sometimes sacrifice themselves in other ways than just fleeing. (and thus not giving up the 100VP from losing a standard even if caught) I use them quite a bit to stand and shoot, knowing full well that they will be engaged and beaten in combat. For example, I've expanded frontage in anticipation for a charge just so I could get the 24 shots off in a stand and shoot, even though that means I would get no ranks to aid to combat. One example of this was a time that I was going to get charged by 3 khorne minotaurs: I chose to expand my frontage in my turn and ended up killing one in my turn, and another in a stand and shoot. The remaining one broke my unit, however, I had succeeded in bringing the unit's US below 5 so the 'taurs were not able to turn up my flanks and were eventually destroyed by a spearblock.

However, I think that in other armies you have a great idea there, I will have to remember that if I ever make one. ;)

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So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

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Last edited by Lord hajjij on Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:00 pm
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OK as if I didnt have enough ideas today, what do you all think of a setup like this:

6x15 Spearelves
4x5 Dark Riders, rxb
1x15 RxBelves
6 Chariots

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So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

-Sun Tzu


Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:05 pm
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Honestly, that list is so redundant I really don't know what it would be like to play with. All those stupidity tests must be a nightmare (I imagine it's hard to keep 6 chariots within 12" of the general), but it's also a lot of punch. Overall I don't see it as any more effective than the last variations, but once again I'm not the expert on how this type of army works.

I like units of 20 spears over 15, but I suppose that allows you to take 6 units.

I'm definitely going to put the 15 rxb elves into my list. With standard!:D

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Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:52 pm
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OK so I took this army to a few games this weekend:

Highborn...ha, sdc, DoDP, BA
Sorceress, lvl2...SoG, scroll
4x20 DE Warriors...sh, sp, mus
15 DE Warriors...sh, rxb, mus
4x5 Dark Riders...rxb, 2w/std
4 CoC's...sp
6 Shades


...against my friends BRUTAL TK force...

LHP...plaques, cloak, collar
LP...staff of ravening
LP...jar, scroll, steed
Prince...la, flail, chariot
25 Bowmen
2 Tomb Swarms
5 Heavy Cav
10 Heavy Cav...champ, std, warbanner
4 Ushabti
3 Chariots...std, banner of the undying legion
Tomb Scorpion
5 Carrion
Bone Giant


This is an extremely good army, and very tough to beat with his HUGE magic supremacy. With 4 DD, I would be lucky to stop one of his LHP's incanations...especially with those plaques. My scroll would have to be saved for the game winning urgency spell towards the end of the game, and I was sure, that that wasnt going to be enough. Anyway, to summarize the game, I shot him up pretty good...but he was able to heal/raise much of what I destroyed back. Despite this, I learned that my shooting, while all str3, is pretty devastating and I think I am going to drop something to get a 5th Dark Rider regiment in there to increase my mobile shooting even farther.

In the end I ended up with a draw just because I was able to kill off his LHP in turn 5 and crushed his Ushabti with a combo charge from 2 chariots and a spear unit. I was up to a lot of my old tricks, like sacrificing an entire unit of spear elves to set up a charge from my highborn and 2 chariots. I challegned the TP and killing blowed his arse. Due to the fact that my army doesnt give up much in terms of VP, I was able to pull off the draw despite having most of my army gone (the bone giant alone killed 3 chariots i believe)

I think with some minor tweaking this army can work. What I really want is:

Cheap noble on pegasus
More rxb
More magic

I think I may change my highborn set up, even though I dont want to, to get some more points. Shades may go, rxb warriors may go too. Think I may rework my army to look exactly like the 2k list and add in the noble on peg and possibly a mage and should end up at the 2250 mark.

thoughts?

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-Sun Tzu


Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:31 pm
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- Human wrote:
Honestly, that list is so redundant I really don't know what it would be like to play with. All those stupidity tests must be a nightmare (I imagine it's hard to keep 6 chariots within 12" of the general), but it's also a lot of punch. Overall I don't see it as any more effective than the last variations, but once again I'm not the expert on how this type of army works.


Im going to try a version of the 6 chariot army (proxied of course) this week sometime. While stupid, the chariots are very hard to take down and are only worth 97 VP. Think of the army a bit like an all chariot, all warrior MSU army with a ton of shooting.

Sadly, I think the highborn set up has to go. I will never replace the Highborn because his leadership is too important.

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-Sun Tzu


Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:37 pm
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