Trial 2250 CoS list for European Championship

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Dark_and_pointy
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Post by Dark_and_pointy »

Slave thats a cool idea, eat your heart out skaven
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Post by Kida »

Haplo wrote:Have you considered making an infantry heavy list? Cheap DE warriors and marauders and some chaos warriors with GW. let the magic and spawns angle your opponents units for a nice flank charge. Chaos warriors with GW and frenzy is just plain rude!

Not quite...

I've considered having 10-strong Chaos Warrior unit with Warbanner and Asp Champ with BoSecrets, but it really hurts that they are Special...

As far as elven infantry goes - I don't like it and it isn't my style of play. Gave it a try some time ago and it was a mess...

And as far as redirecting with Spawns - it usually cannot be done. They have to move in a straight line, you only have a vague idea how much will they move AND you cannot pivot them once they finish their move...not quite a redirecting unit. They are useful for plenty of things, but redirecting just ain't one of them.
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Post by Joey_boy »

KidA: I normal deploy my spawns on each flank and move them diagonaly to be able to redirect. And there is always the option of Zig-Zaging across the bord, that and killing mages in units ;)

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Post by Kida »

Joey_Boy wrote:that and killing mages in units

Oh, they are awesome at doing that. They are also awesome at stopping large infantry and small cavalry units with low basic S in its tracks...they hunt skirmishers, they do lots of stuff. but I just cannot rely on them to redirect/divert anything, 'cos if I do, I'm bound to roll some odd M roll, like 4 or 17, when I need an average of 8-13...
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Post by Kida »

Just a little update, after my first game using this list:

It was against High Elves with 2 mages...

Of course, my second turn, I charge my Boobnoble smack right into a fully ranked Spearmen with a mage (his champ was right next to a mage). My opponent isn't quite sure what I was doing, but my grin might have looked suspicious to him...

...challenges come and I do my thing. You should have seen his face ("Can I dispel it somehow?").

However, luck chose to play its part here: 2 rounds of combat, backed with hatred (so, 4 S4 WS4 attacks, 3 rerollable S6 WS6 and 3 S4 WS 6 attacks resulted in 1 wound total on a mage...I almost suffered a wound myself. :roll: ). However, since low numbers were obviously a theme for me in that game, my Noble managed no to break first turn and outran the enemy second turn...(but he failed to rally on his first try). My grin didn't stay on my face for long.

I had my revenge in a sixth turn - Annointed and Boobnoble slamming in that unit again...a carnage.

In the end it was a draw, mainly due to me having a disatrous second magic phase - two miscasts in a row, followed by 2 of my opponent's spells cast for free. And he wiped my Furies with an irresistible default Light spell the turn before.


I'm so looking forward to pulling this trick to an army like Woodies (Archmages in Wardancers, perhaps also with Annoyed BSB - he'll never see it coming) or Tombkings with their precious Hierophants.
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Post by Joey_boy »

Sounds like you had terrible luck in the game :(

You should kill the mage on the charge 99% of the time, I hope you'll get some games in with more normal dice rolling. Me thinks you should have dominated the magic phase in that game if you'd manage to kill that mage and as a result dominated the game. Better luck next time eh :)

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Post by Amarel »

A little bit more luck and that would have been a solid win. Surely you're rolling will improve at some point :).

I've seen an Exalted Champ with Bindings in action before, it was a wonderful, and funny, thing to witness. I've never tooled up a Noble like that though - it strikes me that he's basically an assassin with a higher chance of getting the job done and living to tell the tale (and he doesn't cost that much more really, assuming you intended to trick out the assassin).

Makes me want to re-jig my CoS army ;).
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Post by Haplo »

This kinda makes me want to dig out the cult once more!
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Post by Kida »

Ha, ha, I'm glad my army and Joey_Boy's tactic might stir some old CoS armies back on the battlefields...
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Post by Joey_boy »

KidA: Thats what we are here for :)

I'v always been more of a tactical gamer then anything else and I love to play with new lists and try to pull new tricks no one sees comming. For me thats the fun part of playing the game and the reason I'm still using my DE as my #1 army :)

I still think that the infantry heavy CoS is the best way to go, but I also realise that many players dont really like maruders. I see them as slaves to our armys and think they fitt right in and make our infantry tactics work like they should :)

Anyways, I'm not sure what army I'll be bringing to the ETC or if I'll be playing in the main or side tourny. But I hope to meet up with some of you guys there just to talk some smack and get a different look on our armys! :)

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Haplo
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Post by Haplo »

So how are things going?
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Post by Kida »

Haplo wrote:So how are things going?

Several more games, all wins (with a possible draw, but I'm not sure). What I'm positive about is that I haven't lost a game since.

That Boobnoble has managed to kill several more mages, all of which were pretty positive they won't be biting the dust any time soon thanks to the presence of champs and angry tooled-up Lords.

Oh man, the look on opponent's face once you say " No, your lord won't be doing any challenging this turn, I'm gonna challenge...um, this mage" is alone worth 50 pts. :D
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Post by Haplo »

Damn...I will simply have to try that out. Next option I have for a tournament is 2000 points with lose army restrictions. Could be I should try it out...
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Post by Kida »

Haplo wrote:is 2000 points

I gotta tell you, I don't see how could an army similar to mine work in a 2k format - you are very tight for points as it is, with characters costing over 960 pts...

I just don't know what I'd drop if I were to make a 2k army. I'd probably lose the entire Noble and one Shade unit....
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Post by Haplo »

Unfortunately that is my conclusion too....2000 points is just too little in a COS army.
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Post by Rasputinii »

KidA: I must confess to being really rather partial to this list. The Bindings Noble is an idea I have frequently toyed with, initally on an Annointed as a Slann killing technique, but is something I have never tried, in any of its guises, and so am really interested to see you report good findings with it.

Its a list that with some modification I should like to try out. For instance I have spent a good while considering an Annointed on a Darksteed with the Gauntlet of Power, Quickening Blood and the Enchaentd Shield. Although the gauntlet's cost is somewhat less of a bargain on him then on a HB I still reckon its worth a try.

The only thing that really interests me is how you are winning your games with this list. That doesn't mean I don't believe you. But its a slightly bitty list without an obvious play style. Thus I was wondering if you could explain a little how you use it, and where you are killling enemy units and with what. That and how aggressively you play it, how bigger part magic plays etc etc...

Cheers,

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Post by Kida »

RasputinII wrote:The only thing that really interests me is how you are winning your games with this list. That doesn't mean I don't believe you. But its a slightly bitty list without an obvious play style. Thus I was wondering if you could explain a little how you use it, and where you are killling enemy units and with what. That and how aggressively you play it, how bigger part magic plays etc etc...

I'll take some photos in the future, but I can brief you on my last game vs O&G (as it is still kinda fresh to me so I do remember it quite good).

My opponent wasn't quite skilled, so my huge win has a lot to do with that.

The list, in short:

Black Orc Lord, with KB and probably some more stuff
3 lvl2 mages (one was Orc) with 4 Scrolls and Pipes of Doom

2*5 Wolf Riders (no bows :roll: )
5 Spider Riders (again, no bows :roll: )
24 Gobbos with nets (no Fanatics - but he had me thinking)
2*25 or so Orcs with everything but the champs (one of those might have been Big Ones)

6 Savage Orc Boar Riders (Big Ones?) with some banner, either extra move or BoButchery)
15 Black Orcs with FC and Warbanner
8 or 9 Squig Hoppers

Giant
Doom Diver


So, turn one and he burns 2 scrolls (I really did get THE best spells I could possibly have - 2 dellusions, a Frenzy, a magic missile, a Dominion one, Steed of Shadows and Unseen Lurker) and Giant is down to one wound (I shot him with everything)

His Hoppers take the bait and move towards my Shades (which flee) and are now in charge range of MDaemonettes

Turn two and he burns the other two Scrolls. Mounted Daemonettes charge and proceed to kill all of the Hoppers, overrun into Spidy Riders.

In his turn he charges my CoKs which flee. Long story short, my CoK fail their next rally test. Later they do rally but due to some funky manouvering on my behalf, they are panicked due to fleeing DRs and flee from the board.
My MDaemonettes, naturally, slay his Spidy Riders and overrun off the table (through his edge)

Turn 3 and I manage to kill 2 of his mages (one via Bindings, the other by Spawn, both in the same unit) in an Orc unit with his Lord. I even manage to win that combat, but he stays.
I'd have killed the third mage also, but Spawn was 2'' too short...

Around that time his Savage Boar Riders die to my combined RBT shooting.

Now, he makes a mistake and charges my engaged Spawn with the second Boys unit. He does manage to kill my Boobnoble with his Lord (there were no champs to challenge) but Spawn sticks.

I also lose my Shadow Mage to an irresistible Foot of Gork. From now till turn 6 it is my 7 PD vs his 3 DD.

My MDs charge his, now unengaged, Orc unit with Lord in the rear, breaks them and catches them.

My shooting gets rid of Wolf Riders.

My Furies, after dealing with Doom diver, charge Gobbos in the Rear, with shades in the flank. They lose by one (damn nets), go poof and Shades break and are caught...

Turn 5 and 6 my RBTs shoot at approaching Black Orcs (with the third mage), which are also affected by 2 Frenzy spells :D

In my 6th turn the last Black Orc dies to Frenzy.

Also, my opponent foolishly leaves the other Orc unit in the flank zone of MDs, which charge, break and catch that unit.

Annointed and Devoted kinda don't do anything and just kill Gobbo unit...that's it from them.


So, my MDs manage to kill 4 units, a General and they don't even lose a model in the process...

With all of his units gone, it was an easy massacre to me. I'd say the most important thing was me protecting my RBTs (I even moved one at one point to get out of charge range of Black Orcs. This is, I belive, the first time I ever moved a warmachine), which dealt with several very expensive units (Black Orcs, Giant, Savage Boar Boys). Magic also helped a lot, especially Frenzy and Dellusions (well, duh).

OK, enough of my incoherent ramblings...I might take some photos next time (and perhaps a tougher opponent ;) )
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Post by Amarel »

@Haplo - I think you can get a competitive 2,000pt CoS list, it's just always going to require a decent amount of concentration to get the most from it, you're unlikely to ever get an easy victory.

@Ras - I use my Anointed on a Dark Steed with the Draich of Dark Power, it's a cheaper and nearly as effective version of your suggestion. I can only think of a couple of times when I can think I'd rather have had the GoP and QB combo, but, the HSoD has been useful more often than that.
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Post by Rasputinii »

KidA, thanks, that was helpful. Only it sort of illustrates hat I was thinkning. That everything in your list does the killing apart from the Devoted which do seem to be out of place. Sort of out on a limb as it were due to their slowness by comparison to the rest of the list. I'm sure they do see action in some games, but to have so many points not really seeing action in some games seems to be something of a waste. Why don't you mount the Annointed. Okay you are going to have to re-jigg your equipment a bit, either going for S6 or investing heavily in one of the two items needed to grant S7+ on a horsey. However the advantage is not only in increasing your save, but it buys you a huge amount of options. He can still join your devoted, and do the job you currently have him doing, but in games where they are either damaged or he is needed with an otherwise fast army he can get on his bike an join in and do a wee bit of smashing here and there. It just seems so much more flexible and gives you so many more options. 'Cos to waste him in a game is to waste a LOT of points (thought I admit he can still cast a way to his hearts content).

Just a thought.

Amrael: Yeah, the Draich does do the job. But I would still want QB, and then you are looking at less protection as he is using a double handed weapon. And 50pts seems like alot for +2S to me. I mean I can't ever roll a KB, so the inherent adantage of the weapon aint so great for me, and the gauntlet goiing first with 5 attacks combined with a 1+ save and a Daemonic 5+ is a much better deal then my HB gets and I really like him with his Gauntlet. And I find the ability to wound T6 on 2s and ignore those 0+ saves completely to be of huge benefit over regular S7 (because remember I can't roll KB).

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Post by Kida »

Yeah, I was thinking about mounting the Annointed some time ago, and as far as I remember, the only argument against is the cheap availability to S7 when he's on foot. Steed of Shadows is a minor argument - that spell is here because Annointed is on foot, not the other way around.

Also, I have a bit of a problem not giving him a true 4+ Ward. Most of the times I do engage an enemy with him, he ends up fighting the meanest and toughest characters, most of which have magical attacks (now that GW only grants +1S when mounted, magical weaponry has become a popular alternative).

However, 1+ AS and S8 is a very nice option. I'll have to think about it a bit more, but it is very doable. I think I'll give it a try next time I play. I do lose 1 spell in the process, but that I can live without...


As far as Devoted goes, I'm amazed how much firepower they attract. Even without a chance of a panic test and with multiple more dangerous and faster units, when people see unarmoured T3 unit with a banner, they feel compelled to shoot at them. Funny...

EDIT:
this would be a very rough version of the new list, very illegal currently as it is 11 pts over the mark.

Annointed, lvl2, dark steed, EShield, QB, GoP
lvl2 general, DSCloak, SoGhrond, MoS
lvl2, Scroll
Noble, MoS, ChArmour, shield, lance, Bindings, Boobworm

12 Devoted, FC
5 Shades
5 Shades
10 RXBs, shields

5 Furies
5 MDaemonettes
5 CoK, Warbanner
5 Dark Riders

2 RBTs
2 Fiends


Again, I'm 11 pts short. Any ideas where to get them?
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Post by Rasputinii »

Do you mean 11pts under or over? If over loose the Devoted's Champ or banner or even just a devoted as the Annointed now takes up two spaces. If under buy Speed of Slannesh for the Devoted's Champ or a muso for the Knights, or marks for the reapers.

I do like this new version of the list alot. I do think it is just that much more flexible. With reguard t the 4+ ward. The thing to bear in mind is now that most characters are using magic weapons they are more often then not S6 or 5. This leave you with a 4+ or 3+ save from armour, which accomplishes the same job as your 4+ ward when on foot. Witch exceptions. But the simple fact is you will be doing some real damage, and going first means alot when you are S8 and removing armour e it were tissue. Also, you now have a better option of dealing with annoying things, like Stegs, which otherwise like to insist on not dying to druchii armies.

But yeah, you may as well give it a go with hthis config. It can only help to playtest it out...

You've got me sculpting a noble with bindings to go on my boob snake now. Curse you.

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Post by Kida »

RasputinII wrote:Do you mean 11pts under or over?

Over, over. It is at 2261 pts at the moment.

However, I somehow thought that Devoted champs/standards cost 10 pts, not 12.
So, I guess this is where I part with my Devoted Champ...

RasputinII wrote:You've got me sculpting a noble with bindings to go on my boob snake now. Curse you.

That's all Joey_Boy's idea. I just shamelessly took it... :D . So yeah, couse you, Joey_Boy! Twice, once from me and once from Ras (I still have to convert (again) my Boobnoble).

Funny how this thread is still alive...
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Post by Rasputinii »

I know its Joey's idea. But I rfuse to give that man any more credit or praise. He has had his fair share.

As for the thread being alive, I was most pleased to find an interesting list upon my return. Everything else I have either seen before or is asking for help as a new player, and I haven't the energy for one of those. It was just a bonus that this thread was by an old timer that I have a lot of respect for. Which I think is a helpful factor with a list. It makes it easier to see when you know (something about) the player.

I do have one uestion for you. Do you run your spawn together or apart? Actually I lied. I have two questions. How do you deploy the army. If its reactionry and/or varies can you give me a more general idea. Its always really nice to know how people deploy.

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Post by Kida »

RasputinII wrote:I
I do have one uestion for you. Do you run your spawn together or apart? Actually I lied. I have two questions. How do you deploy the army. If its reactionry and/or varies can you give me a more general idea. Its always really nice to know how people deploy.


Well, first of all, I divide my units in 2 categories: those whose deployment is dependent only on terrain and those that react or counter-react to the enemy. I also like to keep some units near to the centre...

So, if hill is present, RXBs usually go first, smack on the hill. If enemy has no significant shooting, they go full 12''. If not, I make a choice whether to screen RXBs and one RBT with Furies or not. If yes, then Furies go in front of them. If I choose not to screen (because I perhaps need Furies more, for warmachine hunting), Furies usually go directly behind a hill, to be completely out of sight.

RBTs usually go next. One usually goes on that same hill, but a bit further back than RXBs. The other goes usually on a ground level, but in such a position that if I choose to protect either of RBTs by placing any my characters with them, those characters can in a quick manner rejoin their 'parent' units (Devoted or such).

Devoted usually go near the centre of my DZ, preferably with some kind of terrain opposite them, in order to give me an option of funnelling my opposition and/or choosing one path and protecting my flank at the same time.

Dark Riders also usually don't stay too far away from the centre, as they'll most likely be needed to divert or bait.

Spawns are deployed a bit later, away from the tough enemy and as near as possible to their designated targets - weak small cavalry units or probable units where mages will go, usually large weak infantry units.
They are usually deployed apart, and usually not at the same time (ie, with other units deployed between their deployment)

MDaemonettes are usually placed behind some terrain if enemy shooting is present. They are often a unit most further from centre.

CoKnights are the unit whose deployment varies the most and it is very much dependent on opposition. Also, whether a Boobnoble will join them or not is also very important for their deployment.

I kinda like having a general deployment in a way that would in theory enable me to flank with CoKs from one side and MDs from other, while Devoted stay in the centre.

I also gave a refused flank a try, but more direct approach worked better for me...


Also, if you deploy 3 characters with Devoted (Annointed, Boobnoble, General) and place them smack in the middle of your DZ, opponents might get very nervous and will often make some weird irrational movement in their first turn. They might also shoot at them, just because they look very dangerous. :D



EDIT: I realize I've used a word 'usually' like a gazillion times in this post, but am to lazy to make any changes...
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Post by Kida »

Just a tiny update:

Annointed with Gauntlet vs Treeman = one very Dead Treeman and one wounded (but alive) Annointed.

(as opposed to Annointeds with mundane Great Weapons, which would usually end up dead and Treemen would walk away - sorely wounded but alive)
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