Is using 4 RBTs against the new HEs cheesy?

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Rising son
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Is using 4 RBTs against the new HEs cheesy?

Post by Rising son »

I'm playing my mate, who has the new High Elves in a 2500pts game in the a week or so.
I was thinking of taking 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers as my rare choices to offset the ASF rule. My question is, as the title suggests, is using 4 war machines cheesy? If you were Asur (I know, I know, it's too horrible to contemplate), would you...

A) Run to the nearest Deli to get a block of Danish Blue (ie Cry Chhhhheeeessse!!!!!)
B) Let out a small sigh, resign yourself to your fate and hope your shield is sturdy enough.
C) Realize that "C'est la guerre" (That's war) and play on as best you can.
D) Punch the owner of aforementioned RBTs.
E) Something else entirely.

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Post by Lord myki »

I don't think it is cheesy! It just happens to be one of our strengths. So you are playing to your strength, as I'm sure they will play to theirs!
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Post by Druchiiannointed »

I don't think 4 repeater bolt throwers is a sound investment. repeater bolt throwers are part of our strength just as chosen for chaos are part of their strength. 4 bolt throwers is in my opinion excessive. for the price of 4 botl throwers thats more than 2 units of warriors, over 20 dark riders, a full unit of witches, etc. etc. etc. i would say take 2 bolt throwers and experiment, try out chariots, assassins or even (gasp!) a cauldron of blood. all of which provide alternate methods of statistically beating ASF.
anyway cheers! good luck and happy battles! keep spilling the blood of those pauncy high elves!
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Post by Vorchild »

Well, yeah, it is kind of cheesy, but its HE, so who cares? ;) That being said, I rarely see a HE army these days that doesn't have a few of its own (the last few have all had 3).

I'm not sure its necessary, though, but its up to you. A unit of 10 RXBmen has about the same effect on HE infantry and is more sustainable but costs a bit more and doesn't have the same range. If its all part of a turtle strategy, well, you're better off playing 40K than WFB, but if you'd actually going to go after him with something, its not so bad. Try using 3 before you find you need 4 though is my advice. ASF is annoying, but its far from the be all and end all.
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Post by Bounce »

Perhaps not as cheesy as 8 Cold One Chariots in a 2000pt force. Although that might not be a good tactical move.

If it isn't cheesy to take a Prince on Star Dragon how is 4 RBT's cheesy?
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Post by Kefka »

I'm a little indifferent, but i would have to say it isn't cheesy. I have a dwarf friend who has a lot of artillery, he does think me using 4 RbT is cheezy, then I point out his 2 cannons, organ gun, flame cannon, 3 lines of thunderers and he stops whining.
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Post by Vorchild »

Bounce wrote:Perhaps not as cheesy as 8 Cold One Chariots in a 2000pt force. Although that might not be a good tactical move.

If it isn't cheesy to take a Prince on Star Dragon how is 4 RBT's cheesy?


8 chariots tends to work against you, more than for you. I've done it - its just a mess of stupidity checks and failed ideas. If you want that many chariots, play chaos. ;)

Taking a star dragon is a bit cheesy too, and also unnecessary in my view - just like 4 RBTs. I've been in the same place though. You find something you know works and you load up on it. 4 RBTs used to be my thing - and people still give me grief for it years after I stopped using that many (of course, I used them in conjunction with a dragon, many times, so maybe there's some of that to it too ;) ).

The other idea that people find is less cheesy is to use 4 RBTs in a City Guard army. Its more in theme, lets you use a cool new unit, and brings about a different tactical dynamic that allows you to be more defensive in your game.
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Post by Dalamar »

bikeninja wrote:I'm a little indifferent, but i would have to say it isn't cheesy. I have a dwarf friend who has a lot of artillery, he does think me using 4 RbT is cheezy, then I point out his 2 cannons, organ gun, flame cannon, 3 lines of thunderers and he stops whining.


how about my friend's Anvil, cannon, 4 bolt throwers, grudge thrower and 2 organ guns on top of the gunline of dwarves?

4 RBTs are two rare choices allowed by our army list and thus are not cheesy. They are free 400 VP for a smart opponent. (ok, maybe not so free but quite easy to get)
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Post by Raneth »

As the RBT is woefully underpowered, I'd say no.
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Post by Rising son »

Thanks everyone for your replies. This time around I think I will go the cheese route. I am not becoming a Turtle however. The RBTs are only there to thin a few ranks from his expensive Infantry before I counter attack with my Chariots and Knights. At least that's the theory anyway.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Dark Elves have a huge uphill battle against High Elves right now, and shooting is our only viable option, so I see nothing wrong with this.
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Post by Flamingmonkey923 »

Well ASF is cheesy, and if the High Elf player does not want to relinquish that rule and play you under the pretense that if you charge you get to strike first, then I see no reason to relinquish your 2 for 1 RBT slot.
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Post by Raneth »

Rising Son wrote:The RBTs are only there to thin a few ranks from his expensive Infantry before I counter attack with my Chariots and Knights. At least that's the theory anyway.

Theory = quite sound. I'd rather have more Chariots than a unit of Knights though, S7 is hard to come by for HE (Star Lance or Star Dragon) and having to suffer 11 S5 attacks (I know, worst case scenario :P ) before getting to attack gives me the creeps. Lots of Chariots = serious increase of cheese factor.

What I'm trying to say about RBTs is that units of rxbDR/rxbWars are equally effective against HE, if not more so. (Especially rxbDR. They make Sword Masters cry.)
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Post by Mostlyharmless »

I don't think 4 RBT's is cheesy. Remember, we're the bad guys, we're supposed to make it hard on them. If your opponent thinks that 4 RBT's is cheesy, ask him if he thinks striking first with great weapons is reasonable.
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Post by Crawd »

I think that at 2K if you have 4 RBTs, you shouldn't have to spend points for their protection, they should be able to protect themselves and then attack the threats.

I only use 2 RBTs and I'm using some of my units to protect them since I want them to kill the most important threat with them.

Nothing's cheesy about taking 4 RBTs since they are costy and only have 2 Crews. Like someone pointed out, some armies can have worst then 4 RBTs.
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Re: Is using 4 RBTs against the new HEs cheesy?

Post by Sulla »

Rising Son wrote:I'm playing my mate, who has the new High Elves in a 2500pts game in the a week or so.
I was thinking of taking 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers as my rare choices to offset the ASF rule. My question is, as the title suggests, is using 4 war machines cheesy? If you were Asur (I know, I know, it's too horrible to contemplate), would you...



Probably one of the few cases in warhammer where 4 RBT's will make their points back... masses of low toughness, high points, poor armour troops. You will have a field day.

However, watch out for next week's battle when you too will be facing 4 RBT's on his side of the field and teclis irressistably casting curse of arrow attraction right back at you... :twisted:

In other words, remember that turnaround is fair play... How far do the two of you want to go in the arms race vs each other?
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Post by Bounce »

You could always shoot Teclis, If lucky you could cause 12 wounds!
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Post by Mythrider »

I wouldn`t say using 4 is cheesy but I would say it is of limited usefulness.

I play a Sea Raider list (using only DRs, Corsairs, Harpies, Shades and RBTs) with 3 RBTs in it. At one point I was using 4 but found that replacing 1 of them with a unit of Shades was move effective.

Shades have a degree of versatility that an RBT doesn`t have. You can use them to protect your other RBTs if necessary, war machine/mage hunt or march block giving the other RBTs an extra turn to shoot.

The extra turn of shooting is, in my experience, almost always better than having a 4th RBT. Look at it this way, against a fast opponent your 4 RBTs may get only 1 round of shooting (depending on who goes 1st) giving you 24 shots. 3 RBTs should get 2 rounds due to march blocking giving you 36 shots plus whatever the shooting from your Shades does.

Slow opponent vs. 4 RBTs: 2 rounds or 48 shots. Vs. 3 RBTs with march blocking: 3 rounds or 54 shots plus whatever the Shades shoot and you`ve disrupted his battle line.

Ideally your Shades will be march blocking something WHILE they mage/machine hunt.

Depending on the rest of your list you may also find it diffcult to get good firing lanes for 4RBTs due to terrain and your own troops blocking LOS. We can`t always count on having a hill; even if you have a hill you don`t want your RBTs packed together so the Dragon can get them all at once if it gets through.
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Post by Uman »

Cheese is a 2008 book with ASF taking on an army that had a tweak in 2003 and complaining when said army takes advantage of some gunline tactics that are available to it :)

Against any other army played in good spirit, I would say that it is definitely cheese country. But it's Asur so f*!(# 'em !!! :)

Does that make me a bad person?

I would be a tad worried about some flying heroes or the odd eagle with so many Bolt Throwers - 400pts is nearly 20% of your army on war machines.... if you're fielding Xbows too, you might find after the armies have closed you could use more standing power against ASF or some return fire magicky goodness?


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Post by Rising son »

Thanks again for all the replies and advice. I guess I should tell you all how things went down.

I got massacred!

The 4 RBTs did admirably, taking a heavy toll on his elite units. However not a single one had the good grace to fail a panic test. And that was about the only highlight from my end.

I have to say though, bad generalship on my part was the major factor in my defeat. For example, I just couldn't resist having a go at the flanks of his Swordmasters. First with some harpies and then some Darkriders. Both units were hammered. I really should just ignore them. If it had been anyone else they would have been in a bit of trouble at least but....


Overall though I was far too impatient (perhaps I was a chosen knight of Khorne in another life) and should have bided my time a bit more.
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Post by Crawd »

Out of curiosity, what was your build?
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Post by Rising son »

Hero in Chariot - General
Lvl 4 Sorceress on Steed
Lvl 2 Sorc. on foot
Battle Standard bearer

20 Spearelves
20 Spearelves
10 RXB elves
5 Dark Riders w/Muso.
5 Dark Riders w/Muso.

10 Shades
10 Harpies
Cold one chariot
5 COK w/ champ.

4 RBTs

2500 points with magic items.

Reflecting on it now the Hapies were a waste of points. I don't think I'll take them again. Maybe the shades too.
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Post by Raneth »

Do your DR have rxbs? HE Elite infantry HATES shooty FastCav shenanigans.
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Equipment: bastard sword of Speed, shield of Defence, repeater (20/20), spear, mace, dagger, Armour of Night, SDC, whip, blowpipe (9/12)
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Post by Rising son »

Yes, DR do have RXB. As I said though I dplayed into the HE player's hands. There will be a re-match this weekend and I have no intention of letting it happen again. :twisted:
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Post by Jayferd22 »

I like to bring 6 RBTs in my 3000 point force so I would say 4 isn't cheesy. Then again, I like to shoot with my force. S3 and 4 aren't much, but when you are shooting 150 shots a turn, you'll kill something I promise you.
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