Temple of Khaine

Get critiqued on your latest army here...

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Post by Dark Alliance »

Georg, sorry for my absence buddy. Real life is very, very busy at present.

Are you really coming around to the idea of Shades? It's good if you are...
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Georc
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Post by Georc »

@ DA,
yes I do.... I also found a fluff wise explanation for that... these will be my adepts from the guild of Assassins ^^ Very Sneaky and Fluffy and because the normal Assassine has Xbows so why not some Assassine students.

Also I thought about giving the unfrenzied corsairs handXbows... and represent them as flying daggers or stars or it stands for some boiling blood form evil blood magic which the disciples also use in the WAR Game.

Having no shooting is a great problem especially when not having a lot of harpies to disturb the movement of your opponent. I had a lot of situations where some shooting would be needed to create some pressure or to clean the way for my troops. I know this will be against my inital concepts but it´s still no magic and no cavalery so I think a little bit of shooting will be ok.... also if there is a fluff wise explanation for a use in a temple army.

So we should think about how to change the list.

Kind Regards GeOrc
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Post by A18no »

I don't think that shooting is a good idea (except maybe for shades)

The unfrenzied unit is there to block frenzy unit from charging wrong opponent. They need to charge the same turn as the frenzy unit. If you gave them bow, they may have to charge a turn that you want to shoot...

But shades could be nice. Cause with 2 CoB, the army seem to deploy in a big block like 90% of the time.. you can't harass the enemy t'ill second, and some time third thurn.. When you face archer, warmachine, etc, you need harasser..

and Scout can be usefull: sometime, your opponent will deploy his scout where he don't want you to deploy yours. If you don't have scout, he will always deploy where he want to be

I never used the Mr2 myself too, but the second magic weapon is a must: WE spirit and Wraith are too present (at least here)

Maybe a cheap master: naked with sword of battle...

But i though about something: take that master, sword of battle, and give him hotek ring.. And give Crimson death to the Tower master. That way, we have 6 Str 6 magic attack, and 4 Str4 magic attack.. And you can put the ring where you want it to be..

I love suprises in this list: crystal of midnight, etc. And ASF, hotek black guard.. too evident..

Was some idea, good luck
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Ok Georg, I'll give it some thought.
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Post by Georc »

@ a18no,
You are right but it can do this job also with the hXbows. I didn´t need them in the beginning, but later in the game. In most cases the frenzied corsairs will be free in the second or third turn thanks to shooting or magic through loss of several troopers in the unfrenzy unit. In many situations I free them by myself in the movement phase and both units act independently. I often had then the problem that a enemy unit sacrifices itself to disturb my movement or to direct me in a wrong direction. Especially with bright units this can be a problem because you can´t move around it... for example the great eagles or something like this. Some hXbows in first row of the battleline can free your way because if your corsairs will be stopped your main battle line behind them will be fixed.

How about this list idea:


Death Hag, cauldron
Death Hag, cauldron, BSB, Banner of nagarythe
Master, crystal, soulrender

Assassine, AH, rendering stars, manbane

20 spears, shields, full command, warbanner
15 spears, shields, full command
10 corsairs, AH, stasndard bearer, sea serpent standard
10 corsairs, hXbows
5 harpies
5 harpies

12 black guard, tower master, standard bearer, ring of Hotek, Banner of Hag greaf
12 Executioners, standard bearer, Cold Blooded Banner
10 Witch Elfs
5 Shades, Great Weapons

War Hydra

2250 points total

I droped the Master with MR2 and support with more troops and shades.

What do you think?
Kind Regards GeOrc
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Post by A18no »

Thank for the tactic help!!

For the list: you now have only 3 magic attack, and they are in the black guard... so wraith and things like that will habitully go away from there...

I'm really not sure about the hxbows.. And what will be the principal goal of the shades?? With GW, you made them a close combat unit, though you have plenty of that. Can't they be usefull naked??

12 Black guard... 11 is enough cause 90% of the time, the master will be there.

I don't think 12 executionner are better than 10.. and if you need 6 in the first rank, you can make 6*4 (you'll almost never got rank bonus, cause they will never charge alone, and other unit can give one rank bonus)

And the full cmdt on the 15 warriors.. i love them with only banner, with combine charged (witch, harpies, shades, hydra..etc..)

If you remove all that (GW on shades, 2 exec, 1 BG, champ and mus from warrior), you can buy one more harpies unit...

What do you think

Good luck and have fun!!
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

Maybe for the small spear block you could get a another assassin with the venom sword, more magical attacks and a different option. Also it is very good against ogre sized models.
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Post by Georc »

@ a18no,
the numbers are not because of the rank bonus more because of compensating losses from shooting and magic. Especailly the Exces are a feared target which is always a target when there is a possibility.
I agree with reducing the Black Guard because in my experience everyone avoides to charge this untits so it sees less close combats and so there is not much need for compensating troopers.

The shades with great weapons in addition to the two couldrons add a thierd hard hitter because of strenght 5. This can be important when getting a flank charge and bind a unit. Without these would be only shooters and this is not the main aspect of my list.

I think there is some room for reducing some troopers especially on the special units but the GW on the shades are a must have in my eyes.

@ Marauder Mitch,
nice idea, but this Assassine will be very expensive. I have to spare a lot of points to bring him in and I don´t know if he is worth his points because I have to drop the 15 warriors and in the moment I think about more troops would be better for my list.

But I´m interested what DA thinks about it :)

Kind Regards GeOrc
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

Still not sure on the 2nd spear block. The rest looks good. Your army still gets the feeling being threatened by shooting which is why i think you need something that can disrupt the shooting or can draw them to shoot something else. It will be intersting to see what gary says but a 2nd hydra is always a option.
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Post by Georc »

@ Mitch,
I especially like the idea of the second assassine because when using the rendering stars manbane one in the shades it would be good to have a second one guarding the troops.

Because of the second spears. In my 2000 pts tournament I have to pay without this unit and it works too, but sometimes I miss a unit which helps me to get time until I have time to care for all the enemies

Regards GeOrc
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

That what i was thinking, but as you say it would interesting to see what gary would say. Also with the lack of magic weapons the venom sword could have a specific use for killing wraiths especially with its ability. It could be also worth suiciding into a GD.

With the cauldrons as well he can become more relible.

In my double cauldron list i use knights to force the shooting and make the blocks get shot less, but you can't.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Bear with me for another day. I'm working on a big announcement so am tied up all day.
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Post by Georc »

Hi DA,
no Problem.

a short summary:

1.) Cold Blooded Banner into Exces

2.) Change the second master with MR2

Alternatives:

- cheap, armoured Assassin with dagger of Hotek and Blood armour

- Assassine with venom sword (requires dropping the warriors)

- more troops: shades

I like the idea of a second Assassine but with venom sword he will be very expensive. In regard that a unit gets ASF AND magical attacks a master with dagger of Hotek could do the same, is cheaper and can be armoured.

Perhaps there is a chance to combine this idea with adding the shades.

Kind Regards Georg
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Post by A18no »

I love the idea of the master with dagger and blood armor.. Way more than venom sword... maybe i'll give this one a try.

Good luck and have fun!!
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Post by Keledron »

GeoOrc,

as you've decided to allow shades into the list a positive step I feel and the fluff angle you use certainly fits nicely you might want to consider these thoughts about assassins.

Assassins are very fragile things in the game and really excel when focussed on one very specific role in your list as you are considering the possibility of 2 assassins I'd look at setting them up like this

Assassin 1
Add HW and Manbane this guy is added to a line unit giving them a potentially powerful additional punch which strikes first, if points allow the rune of Khaine helps here 121 -146pts

Assassin 2
Rending stars, Manebane and the additional HW are both a nice to have but not a neccessary choice, 120 - 151pts. You primarily want him as an additional missile trooper this guy leads your trainee assassin unit by focussing on the shooting after all this is what Shades do best (don't waste points on the GW for these in your list they must provide missile cover) you minimise the spend in points and thus lessen the impact his inclusion has on overall numbers of troops.

Taking both assassins in the minimum configurations costs 241pts an additional spend of 80 points you would have to sacrifice the second spear unit but would be able to bulk up any other unit to 25 models.
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Post by Xerasi »

But there would still be the magic attacks problem...

I'd likely go for the master armed with Blood armor, Dagger of Hotek and Beastmaster's Scourge.

Since the Scourge is mundane and counts as a hand weapon it should be useable with the Dagger.
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Post by Georc »

@ Keledron,

I really like the idea of a second assassine or assassine lile charakter.
I have tried out several lists and mentioned that I have to deciede if I will play characters or more units. Dropping a character allow me to lead a whole unit of 20 spears.
In the moment I still play the old list with two masters and an assassine developed by DA. The problem was that I had great problems with using the MR2 in all my games I get never a chance to use it due to that I played the master in the warriors standing behind the screeners or if played in the screeners I had to evacuate him early to avoid loosing him. If so He was never a target for the shooting. In most cases the screeners are only save from charges in their first turn, means in the second I have to leave the unit but this also means I can´t use this unit for a charge to get it out of the way for the troops behind them. You see I had always great problems to play the master in the corsairs in a way not to loose the master but having all options for this unit during the game. In the end he never played his role right. The idea was then if it would be better to drop him and replace him with troops to compensate looses through magic or with an assassin like master which I can play more offensively.

Comparing your Assassine 1 with the assassine like master

Assassine, more WS, S, (through manbane), more attacks (through rune), no armour, 146 pts

Master, less WS, S4 armour piercing, A 4, Blood armour up to 1+, LD which can be used by the unit, 131 pts

I think both choices are nice, the assassine more offensive, the master a good mix of offensive and defensive. I think I will give the master a try in my next game against beastmen next week.

On the other hand the MR2 guy would be a very good support for the shades if he is able to reach them then these are used as scouts. From further experineces I knwo that the shades will be target number 1 for the magic. Here the use of the old configuration could be more useful. Perhaps I should play the old hero setup first with the additional shades and handbows before make some decisions about them.

Kind Regards GeOrc
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

Possibly make the shade quite a reasonable sized unit say 9 and then use your MR2 Master in there. The other option is to use them as a fire support and put lifetaker and MR1 on the master. Or just buy the master a RXB.

But it means not scouting the unit which is normally fine.
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Post by Georc »

@ Mitch,
I think it´s important to slow down the center and a flank of the enemy. So if possible the scouts will be start (when terrain allow it) in a position between flank and center. Putting the MR2 Master in the Corsairs it should be easy to move it after first movement phase out and into the shades. All this before the first charge against the corsairs and the decover of the shades. Because the corsairs will use in most cases their maximum movement they will be the best transport for the MR2 Master and in this case he also fulfill his role to protect the unit against magic missles.

GeOrc
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

Good idea. I still think the master has its uses but can ensure the shades will still be there?? I find my harpies do the majority of the march blocking.
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Post by Georc »

@ Mitch,
sure Harpies are excellent for march blocking but they are also excellent to bypass some knights, chariots or what else from your own troops and this makes harpies very dangerous for your opponent. That´s why he will use every chance to get rid of them. In your fist turn you often haven´t the chance to fly behind the opponents battleline or in save position but shades which are scouting are there perhaps in a good position to march block as well in the first turn and with less risk to loose them by enemy magic or shooting because they use a wood for cover.

Regards GeOrc
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Post by Los manticores »

Slight deviation from topic, then again maybe not. I pretty much have the same magic defense as you GeOrc. MR2 on my DL/Manti, Gem and MR1 on my Master and my CoK Champion is Frodo. How have you been combating against Tomb Kings and VC and I guess to a lesser extent OK Gut Magic? Tactic as a whole sit back for as long as possible in a corner, hold dispel dice for Casket. (What other spells)?
Cheers,
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Post by Georc »

Ok, the shades had their first match today against beastmen.
It was a really nice game with a lot of fun and very balanced. Unfortunatly we had to stop after the fourth turn.
I did some mistake with positioning the shades. a central position would have been better. But my ideas worked great.

I changed the list:

- only one master with hotek dagger and blood armour
- 2 x 20 spears
- exces with cold blooded banner
- 7 shades with assassine with rendering stars and manbane
- 7 witches

The shades cared for the chariots and took them out of the game. One was shut down the other one pinned.
The hydra, witchelfs and a 20 spears unit defend the left flank against the shaggoth. I loose the witches (caused two wounds to the shaggi) but directed the shaggoth into the spears were my master with hotek banner made some wound before he died. Nether the less I won and one turn later the shaggoth fleed from the battlefield.
In the center the BG fight succesful the dragon ogres. The enemy general (warlord on chariot with black hammer, 5+ save, etc) charged into the 20 spears with warbanner and loose this fight but I wasn´t able to get him.
The hydra had a lot of fun make some barbeque of the centigors.

The list works fine but he had only two level 2 shamans so very less magic. So I didn´t miss the Cristal. If I would have played the MR2 Master he would have no effect in this game. I took a look at that and thought how I would have played him and if he would be affected by spells.

The hotek dagger master is fun, but I didn´t know if he is really necessary.
But the master with soulrender would have died by the charge of the dragon ogres like my champion did instead. I will think about that

Kind Regards GeOrc
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Post by Georc »

@ DA,
I know you were very busy, but if you have some time left it would be really nice to have some comments from you about the latest developments here.

Kind Regards GeOrc
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Sorry for my neglect mate. I will read through it all this evening and comment accordingly for you.
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