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Hmm, so, I haven't played wfb for about 3 years... 
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Morathi's Favoured
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OK you guys, I haven't played fantasy for over three years now, which means I haven't played 8th Ed at all.

So, if I were to think about starting to play again, what would be a good set of character and unit choices for say 1500pts?

What are the weaknesses I need to mitigate for?

I'm not bothered about trying to win any events, if I do this (and it's a big "if") it would just be for fun at club level.


Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:20 am
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Dark Alliance wrote:
What are the weaknesses I need to mitigate for?


Other than having to learn a whole new game (because a lot works very different now), not much, really (apart from the low Toughness as usual). :)



Here are some good character/unit choices:

LORDS

Dreadlord on foot or Cold One
Supreme Sorceress on foot (esp. good as General in a unit of Warriors with the Standard of Discipline and with the Sacrificial Dagger)

HEROES

Sorceress on foot or Pegasus
Master on foot or Cold One or Pegasus - possibly as BSB
Death Hag - Cauldron of Blood - possibly as BSB

BSB is a must!

CORE

30+ Warriors
~20 Repeater Crossbowmen
10 Harpies (2x5)

SPECIAL

~30 Witch Elves / ~30 Executioners / 20 Black Guard / 5-10 Cold One Knights
1-2 Cold One Chariots
5-10 Shades

All our Special units work well, it really depends on what you want to play.

RARE

0-1 War Hydra (maybe a bit much for 1500 points, as she is really powerful)

Repeater Bolt Throwers are not that great, anymore, since they fall apart too quickly.



A possible army could look like this:

150 Sorceress Level 2 with Tome of Furion (Lore of Shadow or Dark Magic)
225 Death Hag Battle Standard Bearer with Cauldron of Blood

225 30 Warriors with Shields, Full Command
235 20 Repeater Crossbowmen with Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer
.55 .5 Harpies

375 30 Witch Elves with Full Command, Manbane, Banner of Murder
235 .5 Cold One Knights with Full Command, Whip of Agony, Standard of Hag Graef

Bye
Thanee


Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:37 am
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There's a lot of different builds you could do at 1500 pts. so it's kinda hard to just set up one list... what kind of army would you like?

For instance, I usually go for troop heavy armies, fielding lots of spear elves (30-40 in size), witch elves for damage, a hydra or two, shades or crossbowmen for a little pinch of shooting, use a shadow lore sorceress of lvl 4 for debuffs and a cauldron of blood for the buffs.

Another way to go about it, is a heavy shooting list, where you field either a more stationary version with lots of crossbowmen, and have chariots and/or hydras standing by to charge anything that comes close. Or you could go with a more shade heavy version to have a mobile avoidance army with dark riders as core and probably pegasus characters.

You could also go for cold one cavalry based with leaders on cold ones and just run them as a bus over anything the opponent fields (almost).

For a more fun and exciting game, I would have chosen a mix of things... Like Thanees example (Although I'd consider to have just 21 witch elves 7 wide, and try more knights, and no shields on warriors :) )

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Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:17 am
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But Warriors look better with shields. :D

Bye
Thanee


Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:59 am
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Thanee wrote:
But Warriors look better with shields. :D

Definitly, but it also means a lot of points compared to their numbers.

My manticore model looks good too, but I'll never use it again :lol:

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Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:07 pm
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Well... 30 pts for the shields isn't exactly lots (and against other S3 infantry, which is what the Warriors should tangle with, they are worth those 30 pts). :)

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Thanee


Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:11 pm
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"Balance is the new cheese", said someone...

8th is about buffing and cursing.
8th is about large units and sustained combats. MSU is much harder.
However, after many gamers moved to few death stars, there seems to be an understanding that more balanced armies are more powerful.
Balance, so, but with slightly larger units than in 7th.

-=-=-

A Sorceress is must-take, as PD come anyway.
The Lore is part of the army list, now.
SS gets +4 to cast/dispel, that makes a huge difference.
Shadows is excellent for buffs, but uses many PD, so the best is to use sac dagger.
Dark is great all around, and will keep your general healthy with spell #5.

Best hero is COB BSB.
Unkillable Peg BSB is named Chuck Norris for some reason.


Core troops are needed to provide bodies.
For troops, shooting is much less useful than it used to be, because of the trend to get very large units.

Spearmen are great as fuel for dagger and anvil.
Harpies are all ever mandatory.
You can take DR (muso, RXB) to fill your core if you want an evasive list.
Otherwise, RXB can fight decently (FC, shield), and corsairs must take the SSS.

Special/rare are required to kill stuff.
COK are said to be very nice in large units of 10.
Hydra is great as ever, but everyone brings flaming attacks and prepares for it.
Execs work only in very large units.
BG lack bodies, but work well otherwise.
WE are like corsairs, take either one but not both.

-=-=-

Overall, take bodies, take magic, take high S hammers, take agile troops (harpies/DR/shades/peggymaster), and you'll be happy.

Welcome back to business! :D

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Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:08 pm
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Really cool to see you back old friend! I miss the old days of MSU/MSE discussion and so forth.

8th edition is all about nasty big spells and big horde units. It's a huge paradigm shift, especially for elves, but I actually still play in the style of MSU/MSE.

The biggest weakness you need to mitigate is that in 8th edition you can't kill off the front rank to prevent attacks anymore, so the majority of the time, our T3 and low armor save is actually a significant burden in combat. The rule is called "step up" which essentially means that when a model is killed in combat, the soldier behind simply "steps up" in his place ready to fight.

This means, for my strategy at least, that I had to bulk out my units, and keep protection in mind.

The other big new rule is called "steadfast" which essentially means if the enemy unit has more ranks than you, (not rank bonus, but ranks) they take a break test on their unmodified leadership.

This hurts us a lot as we have to rely on shooting, magic, and high attack models with synergy from the lore of shadow or the CoB to handle these threats, because it's not always a horde of goblins. More often than that it's usually dwarfs or chaos warriors, or even ogres. Units that you wouldn't normally think of being in a "horde" and the high toughness and armor save is a beast for us to deal with.

The counter for large units is that many of the new rulebook lores have very devastating 6th spells that have the potential of deleting entire units in a casting. This is kind of how the balance is formed, so it has made magic almost mandatory in the meta-game of this edition as most everyone takes large units now.

As for unit selection? For the most part, a couple of large units of spearelves, crossbowelves, a sorceress or two, a hydra, and possibly a COB is your almost mandatory backbone in my opinion. From there it's all to taste. Some like large units of CoKs, some like a big block of executioners supported by the CoB, but it just depends. Black guard don't get much play from me anymore because of the step up rule, and the fact that the unit size is capped at 20. They die about as fast as gnoblars or goblins in protracted combats and cost almost 6 times as much.

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Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:00 pm
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Well Iv'e had some minor succes with 2 large unit of warriors (40 +). Yes consider the idea. Put in a Hero/BSB for some hitting power, and too many bodies it works good. One unit can carry the Supreme sorceress to be killed by the sac. dagger.

The COB is all fine and shiny., but one hitting Pit of shades makes it melt like snow for the purple sun.

So in those cases, you will want to make the COB to be standing far far behind, and then you can't rely on the BSB anymore.


Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:17 pm
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Omnichron wrote:
There's a lot of different builds you could do at 1500 pts. so it's kinda hard to just set up one list... what kind of army would you like?



Tbh, I'm not sure. Maybe I need to find someone to give me a demo game and that might help formalise it. I like all kinds of play style, but I guess quick moving is kinda my fave.


Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:39 am
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Lord Veshnakar wrote:
Really cool to see you back old friend! I miss the old days of MSU/MSE discussion and so forth.

Hey buddy, thanks. They were good days indeed but it does seem like an age ago now though

8th edition is all about nasty big spells and big horde units. It's a huge paradigm shift, especially for elves, but I actually still play in the style of MSU/MSE.

So you still have small units? I thought that was fatal in this new rule set??

The biggest weakness you need to mitigate is that in 8th edition you can't kill off the front rank to prevent attacks anymore, so the majority of the time, our T3 and low armor save is actually a significant burden in combat. The rule is called "step up" which essentially means that when a model is killed in combat, the soldier behind simply "steps up" in his place ready to fight.

This means, for my strategy at least, that I had to bulk out my units, and keep protection in mind.

The other big new rule is called "steadfast" which essentially means if the enemy unit has more ranks than you, (not rank bonus, but ranks) they take a break test on their unmodified leadership.

This hurts us a lot as we have to rely on shooting, magic, and high attack models with synergy from the lore of shadow or the CoB to handle these threats, because it's not always a horde of goblins. More often than that it's usually dwarfs or chaos warriors, or even ogres. Units that you wouldn't normally think of being in a "horde" and the high toughness and armor save is a beast for us to deal with.

The counter for large units is that many of the new rulebook lores have very devastating 6th spells that have the potential of deleting entire units in a casting. This is kind of how the balance is formed, so it has made magic almost mandatory in the meta-game of this edition as most everyone takes large units now.

OK I get that. Not sure it appeals, but I get it.

As for unit selection? For the most part, a couple of large units of spearelves, crossbowelves, a sorceress or two, a hydra, and possibly a COB is your almost mandatory backbone in my opinion. From there it's all to taste. Some like large units of CoKs, some like a big block of executioners supported by the CoB, but it just depends. Black guard don't get much play from me anymore because of the step up rule, and the fact that the unit size is capped at 20. They die about as fast as gnoblars or goblins in protracted combats and cost almost 6 times as much.
:? :?

Why is the unit size capped at 20, you mean in the army book I assume? I see there is a shift towards large cavalry units, COKs I have seen in tons of armies!! Is cavalry really that good now?


Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:33 am
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Dark Alliance wrote:
Why is the unit size capped at 20, you mean in the army book I assume?


Yep, BG still are 0-20 thanks to 7th edition armybook.

Quote:
I see there is a shift towards large cavalry units, COKs I have seen in tons of armies!! Is cavalry really that good now?


No, cavalry is weaker than it was in 7th edition, because of Steadfast, mostly.

But, nonetheless, COK still are a very viable choice.

Bye
Thanee


Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:58 am
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Hey

Well in a MSU configuration COC work well, and peg rider's are amazing.

The problem with cav is, they don't brake unit's on the charge. The sheer amount of attack's going their way will, cause you to roll one's for saves. and it hurt's badly.

units CoK of 5+music or 10 with ASF, still work good. :)

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Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:06 pm
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Is there currently a build that seems to be most popular, or effective at a competitive level?


Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:53 am
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The good thing with DE is, that a lot of builds are competitive. The only units in the whole book, that are sub-par are Dark Riders and Reapers.

But generally, the big stuff is the L4 Shadow|Death with Dagger, the CoB BSB, the Lord with Pendant/Crown ideally on a flying mount, Witches Horde with AP|Flaming banner, Execs Horde, COK with AP|First Strike banner, Twin Hydra. Oh, and lots of Harpies.

Most of these are restricted on tournaments. ;)

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Thanee


Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:42 am
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Well the more competitive I play the more DR I use. Currently using 2 unit's with music.

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Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:55 am
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There is basically nothing DR can do, which Harpies and/or Shades cannot do better (and for less points).

The only reason to use them (to me) is to fill Core pts (though Warriors and RXB are generally better for that) and to have even more such units (warmachine hunters/diverters/deployment slots) if Harpies and Shades are restricted (which they always are).

They have their uses, sure, but they are sub-par compared to the other choices we have.

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Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:36 am
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Not convinced that that represents the consensus opinion, to be fair.

The debate on DR is essentially:

Advocates of shades and harpies as better than DR argue that other units can perform the functions of DR for cheaper or better (harpies: manoeuvrability and charging stuff, shades for missile fire, deployment advantages and charging stuff, and RxBs for cheap core RxB fire).

But, advocates of DR (such as myself) point to the combined versatility of the DR. They can manoeuvre well, shoot well, charge and kill things well, have deployment advantages and are core. Why does this matter? Well, I've spent way too many games where a unit of harpies or shades have become irrelevant due to events on the table. If shades are deployed on a flank that becomes forgotten, they have to trek slowly and painfully across the table to become relevant again. If harpies get confronted in a situation where they don't need to do any baiting and fleeing and there are no obvious weak opponents to engage with, they become mere display pieces. Harpy tea parties in the rear of a WoC army are pretty, sure, but don't help you win the game.

I like DR because they can move quickly and easily onto other parts of the table if the side they are on becomes irrelevant, and they can switch between missile fire and melee power depending on which is more pertinent to the situation. That makes them more versatile and ultimately more all rounder useful.

My 3k army usually contains one unit of 5 harpies, one unit of 7 shades and two units of 5 DRs with RxBs and Musician.

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Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:35 am
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Why are Reapers sub par now then?


Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:51 am
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Too easy to kill (just 2 wounds with no armour saves and always wounded on 6s now). Too little output for their points (6xS4 with AP shots per turn, versus the 10/20 S3 shots you could get a turn from an equivalent number of RxBs). Take up a rare slot rather than core.

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Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:52 am
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What about character-wise. Dragon Lords for example - are they rarely seen now due to the los rules?


Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:03 pm
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Basically yes.
At the ETC you can play with dragons by dodging cannonballs and rocks in match ups, but in a normal game, most terrain is smaller or lower then a dragon, or most of the other large targets (apart from mayby the Hydra or Abom)

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Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:22 pm
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That sucks


Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:25 pm
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Really? I like that they've been nerfed. Dragon lords in 7th ed were silly to the point of being an auto include for WAAC players and an auto-disinclude for players like me who didn't want to run pure cheese.

You can still run them in 8th ed: they have good manoeuvrability and pack a solid punch, but they are risky because of mass missile fire, nasty magic and - most of all - cannon balls.

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Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:59 pm
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Cannons and some of the catapults are bad (esp. since they are a bit easier to hit now, as there is no guessing anymore, and they hit both the rider and the beast), but apart from that, the dragon is still as resilient as ever and with the 1d6 extra hits against infantry now it can eat up a unit all by itself.

Bye
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:48 am
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