Clockwork's Lists

[Clockwork]

Alright, I've been looking over the book and formed some ideas of lists. Let's see what I've come up with:

Supreme Sorceress, level 3, Earthing Rod. Metal or Death.

I'm really indecisive about this. I'm pretty sure that I want a level 3 or 4 in the list; but I'm unsure about equipment (Earthing Rod or Dispel Scroll) and Lore (Metal or Death are strong contenders just to deal with Warriors; and Metal has some good buffs, but Dark, Life and Shadow are all solid choices as well). I think that this one is simply going to come down to playtesting.

Master, Dawn Stone, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Battle Standard Bearer.

1+ re-rollable BSB. Nothing more to say here.

Sorceress, Level 1, Dark, Black Dragon Egg, Dark Steed.

Woah! I know what you're thinking: what are you thinking Clockwork? Well, I have this crazy idea about a Sorceress running around with Dark Riders/Warlocks/Cold One Knights, and buffing them up with Power of Darkness (Does PoD augment mounts too?). Its a cheap 1 or 2 dice trick that might get through, and she's got the Egg for one turn craziness or a get out of jail free card. My Lizardmen lists have been running Skink Chiefs with crazy one-shot items like this, and I really enjoy having them as wildcards even if they're not terribly points-efficient. This one's a bit more pricey at 140; and I could drop the Egg altogether to keep her cheaper, so tell me what you think.

20 Warriors, Full Command.
15 Crossbowmen, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.

No, not Dreadspears or Darkshards. I understand GW did this for licensing reasons; its still dumb and I will have nothing to do with it. Anyway, the Core section should be fairly self-evident: a big block of Spears to give my MSU some ranks and staying power; a block of Crossbowmen to take the Regen off Chimeras and the like, and then pitch in to combat; and two units of Awesome Riders with Crossbows for the additional flexibility. Its 20 points over minimum Core, but I like it.

An alternative is swapping out the 20 Spears for 15 Additional Hand Weapon Corsairs: same attacks, better armour save, fewer models. Its an interesting trade off (really, Vetock should have taken note when writing Lizardmen...), but I think I'll stick with the Spears to both boost my model count and because thematically I'd rather stay away from Corsairs.

5 Cold One Knights
5 Cold One Knights
6 Shades, Great Weapons.
6 Shades, Great Weapons.
12 Executioners
12 Executioners
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower

The heart of my MSU list: none of them yet have Command options as I'm uncertain where to put them. Gleaming Pennant and Banner of Swiftness or Standard of Discipline on the Knights are obvious choices, as is Musicians on the Executioners. Thoughts?

5 Warlocks
5 Warlocks
10 Sisters of Slaughter, Razor Standard.

Love them Warlocks. Ideally, there would be 12 Sisters but I was tight on points elsewhere. I think that I'd be tempted to run them in 5s if that was an option; but with the Razor Standard they'll really put the hurt on heavy infantry like Saurus or Chaos Warriors; freeing up my Executioners and Knights for duties elsewhere.

This leaves me 20 points short for additional Command options in Special; or more equipment on the S. Sorceress.

So, thoughts? Recommendations? Criticism? I could really use some advice on the Supreme Sorceress loadout, so any thoughts there would be appreciated.

[Clockwork]

After some more thought, I've tweaked the list further. The Warriors are gone in favour of some MSU Corsairs; I've dropped the Razor Standard on the Sisters (on averages it was only like 1 more armour save failed), and downgraded the Sorceress wildcard to a regular Spirit Leech support caster. The Supreme has been upgraded with a Steed of her own (for additional mobility and LoS from all the mounted units), plus the Cloak of Twilight. I may exchange this for MR3 though.

Supreme Sorceress, level 4, Dark Steed, Cloak of Twilight, Dark Magic.

Master, Dawn Stone, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Battle Standard Bearer.
Sorceress, Level 1, Death, Scroll of Shielding.

15 Crossbowmen, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.

5 Cold One Knights, Standard, Gleaming Pennant.
5 Cold One Knights, Standard, Banner of Discipline.
5 Shades, Great Weapons.
5 Shades, Great Weapons.
12 Executioners
12 Executioners
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower

5 Warlocks
5 Warlocks
10 Sisters of Slaughter.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Clockwork!

Good to see you are even more enthusiastic about your MSU army! I predict you will have a lot of headaches with it simply due to the fact the new book offers a lot of choices! It will be hard to decide which to take and which to leave at home.

I am really jealous about dark steeds! I wonder if putting BSB on one would not be an option too. Mobile characters are simply great! I am also curious how Dark Magic will work for you and I think upgrading Sorceress to level 4 was a good option. It is a little sad that level 3 seems to be so inferior but I guess that's the way it is.

In terms of extra characters I always need a good reason to justify their presence. They often cost as much as an extra unit. While you already have a few there is always place for more. Hence, you need to ask yourself a question do you really need that level 1. What is more, she is vulnerable and will have to have some bodyguards. That might mean you will need extra unit to stay back when you might need it in action. Just points to consider that investment. If it is going to work for you then fantastic!

I miss musicians in your army. Almost every unit I can give them has them. Many times lack of musicians meant slower advance due to no ability to swift reform. Or no option for rapid change of the direction at which the army moves. Once in a while fast cavalry failed to rally when that +1 to Ld would have helped. It is of even more importance when they operate outside the influence of BSB but at the same time you can guarantee their feigned flight to work if you are close to your general and BSB. Rally on Ld10 with a re-roll? Yes, please!

You might consider champions in Executioners simply to give you an option to challenge some nasty characters and let them hold the line that one more turn longer. Of course, you might want to use their KB ability but often the big nasty models are immune to it already. Large targets and all that. That is also handy to plan the counter charges.

If you lack points I would consider combining two small corsair units into 15 with full command and use the points for some upgrades.

You have 5 combat units, 4 that might assist in some fights (shades and warlocks) and some nice support regiments with good shooting capabilities. You will need to use the shooting to clear support enemy regiments also because you don't have cheap redirectors. Since your army is infantry based you will need to be very careful how to pick up the fights with monsters and monstrous units.

I am looking forward to reading your battle reports with the new army!

Cheers!

[Nostromo]

I love the potential for MSU in the book and am really looking forward to your reflections on how everything performs and if you can get it to work as you envisage. I know what it is like to have your heart set on an idea, but I'm really doubting the utility of that second Sorceress. With 2 units of Warlocks and a Lord level caster I can see immediately that your wizards are going to be absolutely starved for dice. Not an economical spread of points in my opinion. Losing the second caster will get you your desired unit upgrades, making your foot troopers do their job all the better.

One thing - have you considered some Cold One Chariots? Tough as nails for their cost... adds utility to your list as well. More drops, and remember... they shoot too!

[T.D.]

I look forward to your batreps with interest.

I'm not sure if you have just forgotten to write them in, but I agree with Swordmaster, that muso's are important for the sort of flexibility you want from a MSU list.

Also, standard of swiftness might be a good option for the sisters, as it increases the chances of them getting out from behind their screens and into their preferred engagement. But if you don't have the points to spare then the last list you posted looks well balanced.

[Clockwork]

Thanks for the responses!

Well as it turned out, I had made an error on my spreadsheet that didn't take the base cost of the Master in, so when I ported it over to Army Builder I was nearly 70 points over! So out goes the support caster. This left me with the points for a Dark Steed on the Master (who has also swapped his Enchanted Shield for a Repeater Crossbow) and Musicians for both Executioners. I'm still weak on magic defense, so may have to take the Musicians out again for a Dispel Scroll.

Hi Clockwork!

Good to see you are even more enthusiastic about your MSU army! I predict you will have a lot of headaches with it simply due to the fact the new book offers a lot of choices! It will be hard to decide which to take and which to leave at home.

Tell me about it! Though one of the things I love about MSU is that you can use a little bit of everything It reminds me of my 40k Ork days where I just took one of everything...

I am really jealous about dark steeds! I wonder if putting BSB on one would not be an option too. Mobile characters are simply great! I am also curious how Dark Magic will work for you and I think upgrading Sorceress to level 4 was a good option. It is a little sad that level 3 seems to be so inferior but I guess that's the way it is.

Well, she's level 4 just to increase my chances of rolling Word of Pain and Black Horror. I think I'll probably go to Death at some point, though, just because Spirit Leech is so useful in which case she can be a level 3. I could just take the Tome of Furion and save myself 10 points, but going for the 4th level just seems more efficient.

But if I could take a level 2 who knew all the Signature Spells I'd do it in a heartbeat I've been running Wandering Deliberations on my Slann and I don't know how I'm going to get by without it.

I miss musicians in your army. Almost every unit I can give them has them. Many times lack of musicians meant slower advance due to no ability to swift reform. Or no option for rapid change of the direction at which the army moves. Once in a while fast cavalry failed to rally when that +1 to Ld would have helped. It is of even more importance when they operate outside the influence of BSB but at the same time you can guarantee their feigned flight to work if you are close to your general and BSB. Rally on Ld10 with a re-roll? Yes, please!

You might consider champions in Executioners simply to give you an option to challenge some nasty characters and let them hold the line that one more turn longer. Of course, you might want to use their KB ability but often the big nasty models are immune to it already. Large targets and all that. That is also handy to plan the counter charges.

If you lack points I would consider combining two small corsair units into 15 with full command and use the points for some upgrades.

You have 5 combat units, 4 that might assist in some fights (shades and warlocks) and some nice support regiments with good shooting capabilities. You will need to use the shooting to clear support enemy regiments also because you don't have cheap redirectors. Since your army is infantry based you will need to be very careful how to pick up the fights with monsters and monstrous units.

There's some good points here. I'd love to have Champions on the Executioners and Musicians on the Dark Riders, but as you can guess I'm struggling for those 40 points. As you say merging the Corsairs into one unit is an option, but for now I want to try and keep them small and cheap. They aren't the cheapest element in the army, but they are the only ones which feel completely expendable. Plus they put more bodies on the table and they can screen more units (its just a shame that they lost their Slaver special rule...). I may end up combining them, or dumping them entirely for 20 Spearmen, but for now I want to give this a try: especially as multiple small units seems to me to be the proper way that Corsairs would act.

There are a few other options to chop points: removing the Standard of Discipline and Gleaming Pennant from the Knights. Given that my BSB is mounted he will probably be nearby them all the time for the Stupidity re-rolls, but that is limiting. Alternately, I could remove the Shields from the Crossbows or the Great Weapons from the Shades: but both of these ideas would reduce the flexbility of either units to be multi-role.

The other alternative is to drop both Executioner units down to 11 models each. To get Champions, I'd need to drop them down to 10 - and that's just very small indeed.

Monsters and Monstrous Cavalry I'm not too worried about. I've got a lot of high strength in just about every phase, as well as the mobility to bait and flee them until/while I deal with them.

I am looking forward to reading your battle reports with the new army!

Cheers!

Me too! I'm holding out till next month though, when all the new stuff finally goes on sale (what? you mean its only been 2 weeks?).

One thing - have you considered some Cold One Chariots? Tough as nails for their cost... adds utility to your list as well. More drops, and remember... they shoot too!

Indeed I have. In fact, I have two of them converted up and love them. With 2 attacks each on the Cold Ones themselves, plus ASF and Murderess Prowess on the Crew, they got significantly better. On the surface, they seem to work well in an MSU list due to the small footprint and Repeater Crossbows (so they can participate in multiple phases). There's just a couple of issues that I have with them: Stupidity is a big one, but there's also reliability (I've rolled that 1 on impact hits way too many times to trust it), and also aesthetics: I'm already extremely low on model count, and I want my army - even if its MSU - to look like an army rather than a collection of single models (looking at you, Warriors of Chaos).

[Medved]

Nice list, im pretty hyped to for the probable MSU comeback (well, never left but still )

Im all for the steed too, at least to try the new possibility of that free vanguard for all mounted characters now. Will see if it outshine the DP. I would put a shield on your master if you have the points, to keep that 1+ RR after dropping the enchanted shield. I will also probably go myself for the redirecting RhB Corsair, and im curious what people can do with the sister's. Now lets see those Bat rep !

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi there!

Tell me about it! Though one of the things I love about MSU is that you can use a little bit of everything It reminds me of my 40k Ork days where I just took one of everything...

You can still do that too! There is no rule that you have to double each choice.

Well, she's level 4 just to increase my chances of rolling Word of Pain and Black Horror. I think I'll probably go to Death at some point, though, just because Spirit Leech is so useful in which case she can be a level 3. I could just take the Tome of Furion and save myself 10 points, but going for the 4th level just seems more efficient.

But if I could take a level 2 who knew all the Signature Spells I'd do it in a heartbeat I've been running Wandering Deliberations on my Slann and I don't know how I'm going to get by without it.

I don't have Lizardmen army book, what do Deliberations do? Well, having a set of spells is always good as it allow you to limit the randomness. On the other hand, having different spells each game allows for more creativity too!

There's some good points here. I'd love to have Champions on the Executioners and Musicians on the Dark Riders, but as you can guess I'm struggling for those 40 points. As you say merging the Corsairs into one unit is an option, but for now I want to try and keep them small and cheap. They aren't the cheapest element in the army, but they are the only ones which feel completely expendable. Plus they put more bodies on the table and they can screen more units (its just a shame that they lost their Slaver special rule...). I may end up combining them, or dumping them entirely for 20 Spearmen, but for now I want to give this a try: especially as multiple small units seems to me to be the proper way that Corsairs would act.

Excellent! That's what I like, you have an idea and you want to try it out! If it works - great! If not - you did try. That's the way to go.

There are a few other options to chop points: removing the Standard of Discipline and Gleaming Pennant from the Knights. Given that my BSB is mounted he will probably be nearby them all the time for the Stupidity re-rolls, but that is limiting. Alternately, I could remove the Shields from the Crossbows or the Great Weapons from the Shades: but both of these ideas would reduce the flexbility of either units to be multi-role.

If I were to choose I would probably got rid of the standards as I agree about flexibility of the other units. Still, the banners are quite useful and not that expensive. Choices, choices

The other alternative is to drop both Executioner units down to 11 models each. To get Champions, I'd need to drop them down to 10 - and that's just very small indeed.

I run 11 Swordmasters but since Executioners have fewer attacks at WS 5 instead of 6 I would try not to decrease the number of models in a unit. I guess it comes down to making a decision what is the most important for you.

Monsters and Monstrous Cavalry I'm not too worried about. I've got a lot of high strength in just about every phase, as well as the mobility to bait and flee them until/while I deal with them.

Sure, you do! They still have means to tip the balance into their favour due to these silly stomps or t-stomps

Me too! I'm holding out till next month though, when all the new stuff finally goes on sale (what? you mean its only been 2 weeks?).

Plenty of time for designing evil plans!

Cheers!

[Clockwork]

Wandering Deliberations gives the Slann all 8 signature spells like the Loremaster. The flexibility this offers is incredible on the table.

Dropping the banners on the Knights would free up 40 points for Musicians on the Dark Riders and champions on the Executioners. But this would leave me a Fortitude of only 4 in Blood and Glory! So I might need to keep them just without upgrades and have the BSB close at least in the early game.

Ugh, there's so many ways to tinker this list. Sometimes my Dark Riders have a Musician, and sometimes the Knights have a Champion (Dread Knights are both cool - more fluff! - and increase the attacks from 5 to 6, which is way better). I've also gone for 11 Executioners including a Draich-master just for some more challenge potential without reducing attack output. But this is how the list is looking now:

Supreme Sorceress, level 4, Dark Steed, Cloak of Twilight, Dark Magic.

Master, Dawn Stone, Dragon Helm, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Halberd, Dark Steed, Battle Standard (he's still got the 1+ re-rollable, but about 8 points cheaper).

15 Crossbowmen, Shields, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.

5 Cold One Knights, Standard, Gleaming Pennant, Dread Knight.
5 Cold One Knights, Standard, Dread Knight.
5 Shades, Great Weapons.
5 Shades, Great Weapons.
11 Executioners, Draich-master.
11 Executioners, Draich-master.
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower

5 Warlocks
5 Warlocks
10 Sisters of Slaughter.

I've kept the Gleaming Pennant on one unit of Knights so I should now only need to babysit one of them, and my Fortitude is now sitting at a much more comfortable 6. This leaves me with an irritating 14 points left over! All I can think to do is give the Master his Repeater Crossbow back and chuck the Potion of Foolhardiness or Ironcurse Icon on him, or give the Sisters a command option (or even one musician to one of the Dark Riders, but I like symmetry). With just one more point I could give the Sorceress the Obsidian Trinket or Scroll of Shielding, but its really quite tough to trim points out of this list.

Swordmaster, on the subject of Musicians, I've been re-reading your battle reports again: but are there any stand out ones where you didn't have a Musician (but wish you did), or where you did have one and were thankful for it?

[Clockwork]

So, this year I'm looking at attending the South Coast Grand Tournament, which is the biggest event in the UK if not the world. Its quite exciting as this will be the first one I attend, so I'm looking forward to it and prepared to get tabled all weekend!

SCGT also have a really interesting comp system. All armies have two sub lists: hard comp and soft comp. If a unit or item is in the hard comp list, you lose -1 to your comp score (Starting at base of 5). If its on the soft comp list, you get +1 to your score. Comp scores are added to your dice roll at the start of the game to pick table edge, type of battle, as well as who goes first - encouraging balanced lists who'll get strategic advantages over harder lists, but no other bonuses. In addition, you have a set of missions that must be completed over the weekend. The full rule pack can be found here: http://www.heelanhammer.com/SCGT/SCGT2014RulePackV1.pdf

Its at 2400 points which means finding 100 points out of my usual list. Fortunately, this is one unit of Shades and a bit to spare (namely dropping the RCBs on the Dark Riders. Boo). Just how Swordmaster of Hoeth manages to get all he does in 2.4 I'll never know!

Supreme Sorceress, level 4, Dark Steed, Talisman of Protection, Dark Magic.

Master, Cloak of Twilight, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Lance, Dark Steed, Battle Standard.

12 Crossbowmen, Shields, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame.
5 Dark Riders, Shields.
5 Dark Riders, Shields.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.

5 Cold One Knights, Standard, Gleaming Pennant, Dread Knight.
5 Cold One Knights, Standard, Dread Knight.
5 Shades, Great Weapons.
12 Executioners, Musician.
12 Executioners, Musician.
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower

5 Warlocks
10 Sisters of Slaughter
Bloodwrack Shrine

Total: 2397

Under the comp, I get a -3 penalty for taking RBTs, one unit of Warlocks and the Twilight Cloak. But I gain +2 for the Sisters and BWS, leaving me at a respectable 4. Ideally I'd like to get it to at least 5, but I can't find a way to do so without hobbling myself (although level 4s on Death are hard comp, I fully expect that most people will be willing to take the hit).

Dropping the BWS and Sisters frees up nearly 400 points - which is a huge amount for what is effectively a cannon magnet and T3 no save vs ranged. But they both boost my comp by +2, the Sisters can hold up something whilst my MSU gets into position, and the BWS can augment any one of my units (particularly the Sisters).

One possibility is to switch my SS to Light magic, take her off her horse and give her MR3, and have her hop between the infantry units. I feel like she'd be more exposed this way and, ideally, I'd want a support caster on Light for S5 Banishment (S6 is hard comp). That'd be the second unit of Shades and overall fewer models on the table, although if I did go down this route I probably wouldn't need both (or either) RBTs, who are there entirely to spend the whole weekend on Daemon Prince-hunting duty.

So this second list could look something like:

Supreme Sorceress, level 4, Dark Steed, Obsidian Loadstone, Light Magic.

Master, Cloak of Twilight, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Lance, Dark Steed, Battle Standard.
Sorceress, level 1, Light Magic, Dispel Scroll.

12 Crossbowmen, Shields, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.

5 Cold One Knights, Standard, Gleaming Pennant, Dread Knight.
5 Cold One Knights, Standard, Dread Knight.
6 Shades, Great Weapons.
12 Executioners, Musician.
12 Executioners, Musician.

5 Warlocks
10 Sisters of Slaughter, Standard.
Bloodwrack Shrine

Which then bumps my comp up to 5, gets the Repeaters back on the Dark Riders, and a Standard on the Sisters for a Fortitude of 7 (breaking your opponent in any game grants 100vps. This is pretty important, as under the comp only 100VPs are needed to win).

Still a long ways out to play test this and think about it, but at present I'm kind of leaning towards the second list. My only concern is that it relies pretty heavily on magic (not that the first list didn't, only without the RBTs the second does much more).

Critique, comments, etc, all welcome!

[Underway]

In MSU sisters are really excellent. Their auto 3 casualties against a ranked unit is great, not to mention the nice addition of no parry saves.

I like the first list better even though you have comp 4. The RBT will really come in handy when you can't get that spell off.

[N.I.C.K]

Hey Clockwork, I really like that first list you put up in your latest post. I think you've got it pretty spot on for most things, the lvl 4 on dark is IMO a great option, word of pain, black horror and shroud of despair could be winners in an MSU list. I'd like to see her on a peg for added mobillity with cloak of twilight and obsedian trinket, but on a dark steed could be ok as well (saves crucial points). Same thing goes for the BSB, I think he's better on a peg but on a dark steed works as well.

I think the rest of the list is pretty spot on, the one thing I will say is don't underestimate black guard in an MSU list. The ability to re-roll absolutely everything under the sun and more importantly the stubborn ability is so useful. I'm hesitant about the cold ones in this list, well two units at least. I know they are effectively trying to mimic the dragon princes' roll in a HE MSU list but they are far weaker for a number of reasons:

1) Stupidity is the obvious one, even with LD9 and BSB re-roll, it means your BSB can't be as flexible and needs to babysit them
2) Stemming from point 1, the fact that they are stupid means they can't flee which is a must in an MSU list
3) M7 compared to M9 doesn't seem like much but it makes a big difference
4) With only 1 attack each compared to the 2 of the DP's they just don't put out the hurt like their high elf cousins do
5) Less of an issue but DPs have dragon armour, meaning 1 searing doom won't wipe them all out.

I think they're worth playing around with, but I'm not 100% sold on them.

Bloodwrack shrine could be an excellent addition I think, such an underrated unit IMO. Don't feel obliged to put it in a unit either, it could do very well used as a support chariot.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Clockwork,

Nice to see you are going to bring MSU army to the tournament! Not sure, however, what do you mean by me being able to put everything I want in 2.4k! I always have hard decisions to make and some valuable units are often left at home or not in strength I would like them to have!

I miss repeating crossbows on Dark Riders in the first list. I really like their ability to move rapidly and add these bolts where they count. I have also found out that people are making mistakes when some small units move around and shoot at them. They don't have to wound much but the fact they are shooting annoys the enemy. And crossbows will also be great in support units warfare. Would you consider dropping one bolt thrower to accommodate them? I know many people claim 2 is a must but I have found that 1 is not that bad either.

What is the role for corsairs in the army list 1?

I like the fact you are going to use Sisters. Protect them well and I believe they will be your stars!

I agree with Nick on Black Guard but it is indeed hard to find space for them and I would probably not do so at the expense of Executioners.

As to COK I think they indeed need to be perceived as different type of heavy cavalry than Dragon Princes. DP's are fast and very precise hitting but they are not that great in subsequent turn of combat with S3 only. COK on the other hand can be allowed to enter the fight where they will slowly grind down the enemy with both, riders and mounts, having S4. They might need some babysitting and might not be too far away from BSB but at the same time they can nicely control the field with their longer and more reliable charge distance than infantry. If you position your bsb centrally and keep them in 12" on both sides then you can threaten quite large area both to the centre and to the flanks.

Personally, I like them also because of the fantastic miniatures and I have found out if you include miniatures you like you tend to find very good uses for them too!

You could, of course, go for better variety and instead of one COK unit you can add Black Guard. Each option is good, the question would be, with which one would you feel the most comfortable with?

Cheers!

[Clockwork]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

@Underway,

I think I agree - the second list relies a lot on magic to do the heavy lifting, which I'm really not comfortable with because chances are it will go wrong just when I need it.

@N.I.C.K.

I'd love to get Pesgasi! But I just can't fit them in reasonably.

Regarding the Cold One Knights, they are in primarily for more high strength. I play Warriors of Chaos a lot, and can't value enough as much S6 as possible. Yes, the Knights have their problems, as you outlined, but you're still getting those S6 attacks, with re-rolls unlike Executioners, on a mobile platform with good saves.

That being said, I am partially convinced by your and Swordmaster's points. Usually I prefer to have two of something for added redundancy, but because there's two units of Exies I think that this is one occasion where one might just be enough. Its also easier to babysit one unit than it is two. I've got a revised list below and would appreciate your further thoughts on it!

@Swordmaster

As touched on above, I think your proposal to drop one unit of Knights for some Blackguard is a good proposition. This gets more tools on the table, and your own reports attest to how useful it is to have something Steadfast, as well as more models - and the BG models are excellent!

I too miss the Repeaters on the Dark Riders. As you say they are good for harassment, and even if all they do is chip the Charmed Shield off of a Daemon Prince, I would consider the investment worthwhile. I can juggle some points around (such as removing Shields from the Crossbowmen) to get them back. I'm reluctant to part with the second RBT, though, purely for redundancy.

The Corsairs are in for mostly chaff or chaff-clearing. I don't really have anything that fulfills this role, as the other ranged units all have dedicated targets, and I want to keep the Dark Riders free to roam where they are needed. Against ranged armies, I aim to use them as a screen for the rest of my troops, and as bait for tougher armies that I can't fight. But all it takes is a good Soulblight for them cause some real damage. I have debated dropping one or both units for some Witch Elves, but I can't resist the opportunity to have something with armor over 5+ and can stand up to S3 bowfire, which the list otherwise lacks.

The Sisters/BWS are my secret weapon - I'm really counting on people underestimating them as I think they can be really surprising!

I meant that I'm used to fighting 2.5k, so although its only 100 points less it seems even tighter to get the things in that I want!

So, here's the revised list based on the comments received:

Supreme Sorceress, level 4, Dark Steed, Talisman of Protection, Dark Magic.

Master, Cloak of Twilight, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Lance, Dark Steed, Battle Standard.

12 Crossbowmen, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
5 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.
10 Corsairs, Musician, Repeater Handbows.

5 Cold One Knights, Standard.
5 Shades, Great Weapons.
12 Executioners, Musician.
12 Executioners, Musician.
10 Black Guard, Musician, Tower Master.
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower

5 Warlocks
10 Sisters of Slaughter
Bloodwrack Shrine

Total: 2400 on the dot.

With this list, I'm down to a Fortitude of 5 which is a bit tight. I could swap the Black Guard champion for a Standard, although then I've only got the one Champion on the Crossbows to accept challenges with. A consideration would be to go for 11 Executioners + Champion instead of the 12 of each.

The elephant in the room is, of course, the Crossbowmen. They are currently at 12 models but could lose some, or the Champion, to get a Standard on the Sisters (or both Executioners).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Clockwork,

I like the list a lot! I would go for 11+champion in executioners. Unlike BG they are not stubborn so that one more round against some big individual can help you out.

Indeed, scaling down by 100 seems like nothing but makes things quite complicated. I have huuuge trouble in scaling to 2000 not to mention less. Other armies can get rid of a character to make it possible, we cannot

I hope you will get a game and a report soon so that we can see how it goes in practice.

You will do fine!

[Tanka]

Love the look of the MSU list, will give some people real nightmares to pin down.

The major concern I have is just how easy the level 4 is to kill, against any army with cannons you do not have the bodies needed to protect her at all. Not too sure what I'd do to change this but it is something that I think you need to think about strongly.

[Clockwork]

I've been thinking about adjusting the list slightly by moving the Banner of the Eternal Flame off the Crossbowmen and onto the Cold One Knights. In doing so, I can effectively remove the Crossbowmen and replace them with, for instance, a unit of 12 Witch Elves with a Musician, which gets me another combat unit (and, importantly, another ITP one too).

Regarding the Supreme Sorceress, a consideration is to take her off her Steed, give her MR3 instead of the Talisman (+ a Scroll or other goodies), and run her on foot instead. My initial concern would be the relatively short ranges of Dark Magic - however, looking at it closely, its actually about average with most spells 18-24" (the big exception being Shroud of Despair). I'll raise this in the Dark Magic feedback thread and see what the general consensus is.

The other reason to keep her on the Steed is that I love the conversion I've done

[Marchosias]

I am not sure how much the experiences of other people regarding dark magic are applicable to your army. I think that in most lists, a dark sorceress on foot is well protected in a big unit which is not afraid to march up into the open field, while closing the range with your 11 execs and sorceress would be far riskier.

[Clockwork]

Well, I have an upcoming game against the Wood Elves tomorrow, and a new list to show you!

Unfortunately, its not longer MSU. Whilst such a list is probably still viable in the hands of an expert player, I'm certainly not one. The Dwarf release was a warning flag, and the Wood Elf release has been the final nail in the coffin. Whilst target saturation is certainly a viable strategy against Ballistic Skill shooting, without getting nearly as much practice in as I wanted I think I'm going to have a hard time of it (which of course is a chicken and egg scenario, but that's a conversation for another day!). Still, writing MSU lists has been a very useful experience, and the key lesson I've learnt is in making most of the points that you spent. To that end, I'm retaining a lot of the familiar features of those lists, notably in running a very light character set up.

So, on to the list. And look, (mandatory poor quality) pictures!





The Legion assembled! From left to right and front to back, Shades, Cold One Knights (with BSB on the right corner), Dark Riders, cables, Cold One Chariot, Warlocks (with Sorcerer on the right), Crossbowmen, Executioners and Bloodwrack Shrine, Shades, Gladiators + Corsairs proxying as Witch Elves, Repeater Bolt Throwers, more Dark Riders, old reciepts


Supreme Sorcerer
General; Magic Level 4 Dark
Dispel Scroll
Talisman of Preservation
Ironcurse Icon
Dark Steed

Master
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard
Cloak of Twilight
1 Dark Steed

5 Dark Riders
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Musician

5 Dark Riders
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Musician

17 Witch Elves
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon; Standard
Banner of Swiftness
1 Hag

11 Darkshard
Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
Banner of the Eternal Flame
1 Guardmaster

23 Har Ganeth Executioners
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
Gleaming Pendant
1 Draich-master

8 Cold One Knights
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard
Lichebone Standard
1 Dread Knight

5 Shades
Great Weapon; Rptr Crossbow

5 Shades
Great Weapon; Rptr Crossbow

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower

5 Doomfire Warlocks

1 Bloodwrack Shrine

1 Cold One Chariot

So three main combat units and a bunch of units in support to win the inevitable Chaff War. BSB goes in the Cold One Knights, whilst Sorcerer hangs out with the Warlocks - unless I'm facing a combination of Cannons/Death/Dwellers/etc, in which case he can sit in the Knight unit (gaining LOS and 3++) or the Executioners (also gaining 3++) whilst giving either unit a 6++ vs Warmachines. In the Wood Elf match up he will be able to hang out with his Brolocks until they drop below 5. I've gone with Swiftness on the Witch Elves to get them into combat with something as quickly as possible.

The list is primarily designed to beat things like Warriors of Chaos with all their armour, so I'm interested at how its going to do at the opposite extreme.

You can see slightly less crappy quality images of some of my new stuff over here

[Amboadine]

Not a bad list at all. You should be able to handle most situations. A little slow for my personal tastes, but I can see the thought behind it. Might drop the CoC for another Warlock unit myself, but overall not too much wrong within the list.

Nice cohesive looking army too.

[T.D.]

Beautiful army!

[Askador]

I really like the pictures of your Army. They look great.

To the list. I think its brave to have no Ward Save on your Charakters. Its cool for other enemys but against Woodelves its risky since they got that Armor ignoring sharpshooter Hero.
I usualy run a Dreadlord with as1+ rerolleable but when i face woodelves im not sure if i should take him.

[Clockwork]

Thanks guys! You can read about the game over here.

Regarding Ward Saves, I agree 100%. I sure do love the Dawn Stone 1+ re-rollable combo, but in this world of Waystalker Sniping it is jut not worth the risk unless you are T5 (ie a Scar-Veteran or Oldblood). Which is why I have the Cloak and a Talisman of Preservation on my only two characters.

Regarding the list, I've made some slight tweaks in anticipation of my next game:

Supreme Sorceress
General; Magic Level 4
Dispel Scroll
Talisman of Preservation
Ironcurse Icon
1 Dark Steed

1 Master
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard
Cloak of Twilight
1 Dark Steed

5 Dark Riders
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Musician

5 Dark Riders
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Musician

18 Witch Elves
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon; Standard
Banner of Swiftness

11 Darkshards @ 184.0 Pts
Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Standard; Musician
Banner of the Eternal Flame
1 Guardmaster

20 Har Ganeth Executioners
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
Gleaming Pendant
1 Draich-master

6 Cold One Knights
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard
Lichebone Standard
1 Dread Knight
Heavy Armour; Shield

5 Shades
Great Weapon; Rptr Crossbow

5 Shades
Great Weapon; Rptr Crossbow

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower

5 Doomfire Warlocks
#3: Soulblight
#DrkS2 - Doombolt

1 Bloodwrack Shrine

1 Cold One Chariot

1 Cold One Chariot

More Chariots! I think these guys are going to be key: with their T5 they are resilient to S3 shots (including those all important Waywatcher no AS shots), and they have the Wounds and Armour Save to absorb Glade Guard Hagbane arrows (plus, if they are shooting at the chariots, they aren't shooting at the M6 Witch Elves coming to ruin their day!). The key, I think, is going to be planting these guys on the touch line and trying to get 1st or 2nd turn charges off into the Scouts.


I had to tinker some unit sizes to fit the second one in, but I think I've been able to do it without harming the combat ability of the Knights or the Executioners too much. And I'm glad that I was able to, as well, as I always like the idea of Dark Elf Chariots and its great to be playing with them again. Although primarily here as Wood Elf counters, I think they'll still do well against most other opponents in supporting either one of my combat blocks or the Knights - especially when teamed up with Soulblight from the Warlocks.

[Amboadine]

Nice changes, I like the list, and am definitely interested to know how you fair against the woodies with the chariots.

[T.D.]

Good list in the current rail-gun meta