2500 vs VC Need advice

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Loppamannen
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2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Loppamannen »

Hi.

I've started playing against a VC player and have completed one game which I did ok. But I had a lot of trouble with both his two terrorgheists and the Hexwraiths. I just didnt have enough ppl with magic weapon in my army, and I also failed a bit on the magic.

I have composed a new list which I hope can do better, but I'm a bit conserned that is has to many characters.

Here we go:

Lord:
Dreadlord Halberd SDC, Shield, Dark Pegasus, Armour of Destiny, Cloak of Twilight
Stands alone. I see everyone uses Lance. But I thought this build would stand longer battles, and I will have STR 5.

Supreme Sorceress, Dark Steed, Level 4 Upgrad, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation
Goes with the warlocks for fast cav magic. Not sure if I should go for Light list again. Death is also something I consider because of Purple Sun.

Hero:
Death Hag BSB, Witchbrew, CoB, Sword of Anti Heroes
Goes with the WE for WS and impact, along with magic weapon for spirits and other ghosts.

Master, Cold One, HA, SDC, Shield, Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Goes with the CoK unit. I might swap BSB with him. But unsure of the magic towards the unit.

Core:
32 Witch Elves, Mus, Razor Standard

5 Dark Riders Mus

5 Dark Riders, RxB, Shield, Mus

Special:
5 Cold One Knights, FC, Dread Knight w/Biting Blade, Banner of Eternal Flame

War Hydra, Spit Fire

3xRBT

Rare:
5 Doomfire Warlocks

Let me know if you have any experience with VC and if something in the list is completely wrong.
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Drchia
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Drchia »

I'm a big fan of bringing a small 10 man unit of Darkshards w/ the banner of Eternal Flame against VC, especially alongside RBT's. Use the xbows first and as long as they do at least one wound, it will shut off the regen allowing the RBTs to murder the geists.
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islands
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by islands »

Hexwraiths are so dangerous that you should always cast doombolts at them with as many dice as possible. That should keep them on the defensive. Yes death is really good, VC players always freak out when you cast spirit leech on their general and will most likely dispel it at all cost which will open up your magic phase.
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Loppamannen
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Loppamannen »

Drchia wrote:I'm a big fan of bringing a small 10 man unit of Darkshards w/ the banner of Eternal Flame against VC, especially alongside RBT's. Use the xbows first and as long as they do at least one wound, it will shut off the regen allowing the RBTs to murder the geists.

At our gaming group flaming banner are NOT considered magical. Thats why I'm not bringing it, especially on darkshards. If that was the case I would certenly do it. In this list I will try the RBT for killing off at least one of the geists or at least make them less powerful. But I haven't tried it before, so I'm not sure if three of them will be very effective. But I see no other thing to bring unless its a dreadlord/master or doing it with magic.

islands wrote:Hexwraiths are so dangerous that you should always cast doombolts at them with as many dice as possible. That should keep them on the defensive. Yes death is really good, VC players always freak out when you cast spirit leech on their general and will most likely dispel it at all cost which will open up your magic phase.

The problem is that I can't both focus on wraits and leech at the same time (I have a tendency to roll 2+1 on magic :shock: ). But I guess the focus should be doombolt on wraits, and when they are gone I can start focus on Leech? He usually bring his general in a black knight unit. But I guess leech is sniper spell?
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islands
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by islands »

Loppamannen wrote:The problem is that I can't both focus on wraits and leech at the same time (I have a tendency to roll 2+1 on magic :shock: ). But I guess the focus should be doombolt on wraits, and when they are gone I can start focus on Leech? He usually bring his general in a black knight unit. But I guess leech is sniper spell?


Yea if you're low on powerdice, just use doombolt. If you get around seven powerdice it would be ideal to start with a spirit leech (yes it's a snipe) on his general to get rid of his dispel dice and then throw doombolt at wraiths.
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Loppamannen
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Loppamannen »

If thats the case I should split up the warlocks and the SS? Give her the CoT and let the warlocks get into position on wraits and place the SS to leeche the general? I can always give the dreadlord re-rolls on AS instead. That will keep him going for a while I guess.
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Kheel
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Kheel »

Since you know your enemy, hexwraiths are no problem for doombolt. Two units of 5 warlocks or one unit with a dark magic sorc is enough to deal with them. 2D6 St5 and (X)D6 St1 twice every magic phace, you will most likely get two magic phaces before they see combat, so make them count. Another thing I take is ruby ring of ruin, you can throw one dice at this, and if he lets it pass, that's another D6 St4 on the hexwraiths, or anything with regen really, to remove regen from that unit. Once regen is removed, use other damage spells to kill it off since the regen now is gone for this turn :)

When I fight multiple terrorgeists, I find it usefull to dedicate all my arrows at them the entire game, eventually they will fall. Single shots from your rbts, one of them should fall in one turn from 3 single shots (if you manage to hit with all).

I would also take flaming standard over razor standard on your witch elves, and the 5 points banner to reroll failed LD checks on your CoKs. It is so frustrating to fail that one stupidity check when you're just out of reach from your Cauldron (note that the cauldron is not a large target, so does not confer the 18" bouble, it's the standard 12" bouble sadly).

You can also remove 4 more witch elves to to free up more points, and combined with the freed up points from banner swaps, you will most likely have enough to afford another unit of Dark Riders. They are just sooo good.
//Kheel

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Loppamannen
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Loppamannen »

Hi and thanks for all the feedbacks.

Kheel:
I know my enemy player (I have never beaten him), but I don't know VC that much so I can benefit his weaknesses. But I am aware of some of them. I will see if I can manage to get the Ruby ring in somehow.

My plan was to use the RBT to take out geists with singe shot. Hopefully they will manage to hit once or twise a turn.

When it comes to removing WE I have no room to manouver the core. I'm at minimum as it is right now. If I remove some of them, I have to add it another place. So if I'm to free up anything its must be lord/hero or special/rare. And my warlocks stays. They have been awsome every game I played. I'm a bit unsure of the CoK. Last game I brought executioners. They performed below avarage I think. Haven't gotten a good game from them yet, only with the two tower setup by Dalamar. Then they were awsome!

I will see what I can do with the standard. I might be able to manouver some points around to do a swap.

I tweeked the list a bit last night. Here is an output of that:

2500 Pts - Dark Elves Roster

Dreadlord, General, Lance, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Armour of Destiny, Dawnstone

Supreme Sorceress, Dark Pegasus, Dispel Scroll, Cloak of Twilight, The Lore of Death

5 Doomfire Warlocks

Death Hag, BSB, Witchbrew, CoB, Sword of Anti Heroes
35 Witch Elves, Mus, Std, Banner of Eternal Flame

Master, HA, SDC, Shield, Cold One, Biting Blade, Luckstone, Crown of Command
6 Cold One Knights, FC, Gleaming Pennant

War Hydra, Spit Fire

Dark Riders #5 Mus, RxB, shield

Dark Riders #5 Mus, RxB

Reaper Bolt Thrower #3

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 625
Points of Heroes: 512
Points of Core: 630
Points of Special: 605
Points of Rare: 125

Total Roster Cost: 2497

I'm a bit unsure of the dreadlord build. It would have been better to have the cloak on him, but then I need to move the SS back into the warlock unit. And as mentioned before I am unsure of the CoK unit. It makes the army fast, but I still haven't seen a game were they have worked optimal. Might get some BG or Exec insted.

Any advice to the new list? Looks functional? I want to deploy the RBT more on one side then to spread them out. This should make him move his gheist to that side of the table (hopefully). Then I can counter that with the dreadlord and/or CoK. WE stays in the center. Hopefully I can manage to pull out his frenzy flyers with my DR. Thats as far as I have come with a gameplan. And ofc the doombolt/leech tactic on magic. I will try to stay away from his zombie/skelly units. He will bring a necro to raise them anyway.
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Kheel
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Kheel »

To be honset with you, your new list looks worse than the previous because of the following reasons:
You don't need this many witch elves in one unit. It is better to run then as 28, that will give you a horde of 4 in depth which is enough. The rest of the bodies are a waste of points that could have been better invested differently. Why not make another unit and split the two up, one of 28 bodies and one of 12.
My second concern is your sorceress. All he needs is one solid scream from his terrorgeists, and she's very much dead I'm afraid. She would be more usefull on a dark steed, moving along with your warlocks. Vanguard this unit up as far as you can and then march them inside his lines and release the pain.

Your new Dreadlord build looks very solid.
//Kheel

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Loppamannen
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Loppamannen »

Kheel wrote:To be honset with you, your new list looks worse than the previous because of the following reasons:
You don't need this many witch elves in one unit. It is better to run then as 28, that will give you a horde of 4 in depth which is enough. The rest of the bodies are a waste of points that could have been better invested differently. Why not make another unit and split the two up, one of 28 bodies and one of 12.

I do agree with you. And my thought was to have it at around 30. If im not mistaking the CoB will take up 9 or is it 12 slots on my movement tray. But there are supposed to be WE underneath he CoB? Or do the CoB "push" them further back in rank, and I still get the horde? This new edition is my first time having a chariot in a unit, except when I played some skavens and used the Bell. Then the Bell had rats underneath it. I think there were 12 of them.
But I will see what I can do with the numer of WE in that unit. Last time i played him I had a unit of 10. They were a bit easily destroyed, but that was also my fault in the deployment.


Kheel wrote:My second concern is your sorceress. All he needs is one solid scream from his terrorgeists, and she's very much dead I'm afraid. She would be more usefull on a dark steed, moving along with your warlocks. Vanguard this unit up as far as you can and then march them inside his lines and release the pain.

She has 3+ ward against shooting and the shout is shooting isn't it? If that is the case I'm not that conserned. But moving her into the warlock will save me some points on the mount as well as I can give the DL the cloak back.

Kheel wrote:Your new Dreadlord build looks very solid.

I do miss the CoT for the killingblow and d3 wounds. But I guess he can hand out enough punishment in the first round to be able to survive a round two if needed.


Can someone please verify that the flame banner gives the unit magical attacks?
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by ScottyDo »

If you drop the sorceress to a steed, you can give the Dreadlord the potion of strength, great for if he gets stuck in a second round of combat.
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Loppamannen »

That is true. I will change the setup and og for a small unit of WE alongdide the horde. If someone can confirm that the flamme banner is magical I might switch the small unit of WE with a unit of Darkshards with that banner.
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by T.D. »

Dreadlord build is very good ...but much less sexy than before !lol!

I would change Hydra from Spit Fire to regular breath weapon.

COB moves by magic, and allows the unit to count as a horde in three ranks...but note this just means that Witches in the third rank can still fight despite having their formation disrupted by having a big cauldron in the middle, it doesn't mean there are any Witch attacks coming from the footprint of the cauldron (other than those on top of it!)

- Flame Banner -> I don't think counts as magical attacks.
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Loppamannen
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Loppamannen »

Ok. Thanks for the inputs. I will post the "final" list as soon as I have it ready.
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Kheel »

Loppamannen wrote:
Kheel wrote:To be honset with you, your new list looks worse than the previous because of the following reasons:
You don't need this many witch elves in one unit. It is better to run then as 28, that will give you a horde of 4 in depth which is enough. The rest of the bodies are a waste of points that could have been better invested differently. Why not make another unit and split the two up, one of 28 bodies and one of 12.

I do agree with you. And my thought was to have it at around 30. If im not mistaking the CoB will take up 9 or is it 12 slots on my movement tray. But there are supposed to be WE underneath he CoB? Or do the CoB "push" them further back in rank, and I still get the horde? This new edition is my first time having a chariot in a unit, except when I played some skavens and used the Bell. Then the Bell had rats underneath it. I think there were 12 of them.
But I will see what I can do with the numer of WE in that unit. Last time i played him I had a unit of 10. They were a bit easily destroyed, but that was also my fault in the deployment.

The cauldron takes up 15 FIFTEEN models in space. (3x5 20mm foot print 60x100) A unit of 28 hands you a four ranked unit, since there are 7 witch elves for each rank - 4x7=28.
Loppamannen wrote:
Kheel wrote:My second concern is your sorceress. All he needs is one solid scream from his terrorgeists, and she's very much dead I'm afraid. She would be more usefull on a dark steed, moving along with your warlocks. Vanguard this unit up as far as you can and then march them inside his lines and release the pain.

She has 3+ ward against shooting and the shout is shooting isn't it? If that is the case I'm not that conserned. But moving her into the warlock will save me some points on the mount as well as I can give the DL the cloak back.

3+ or not, that's still 1/3 chance each time you roll the dice that she will take a wound. Statistically, on a good shout you take 3 hits, that is on average one wound. If he commits to it (and anyone with a sense of the game would) he will destroy your level 4 in his round 2.
Loppamannen wrote:
Kheel wrote:Your new Dreadlord build looks very solid.

I do miss the CoT for the killingblow and d3 wounds. But I guess he can hand out enough punishment in the first round to be able to survive a round two if needed.

Indeed he does, and he is so much more survivable in combat. He will not die to anything not boosted by magic. And since he can fly, you pick your fights. Giving you the advantage, every time, every combat he goes into.
Loppamannen wrote:Can someone please verify that the flame banner gives the unit magical attacks?

Flaming banner does NOT give your unit magical attacks. You only gain the flaming special rule. Flaming stacks with poison however, and that is what you want. Flaming removes regen, and VC has a lot of regen available. Witch Elves are experts on dealing with anything with: #1 high toughness, and #2 high armor. The amount of wounds is so many that your opponent will have to roll a lot of 1s statistically speaking.
//Kheel

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Loppamannen
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Re: 2500 vs VC Need advice

Post by Loppamannen »

Ok..

Here we go with a new attempt on the list:

Dreadlord, Lance, SDC, Shield, Dark Pegasus, Armour of Destiny, CoT

Supreme Sorceress, Dark Steed, Lvl4, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation
5 Doomfire Warlocks

Death Hag, BSB, Witchbrew, CoB, Sword of Anti Heroes
26 Witch Elves, Mus, Banner of Eternal Flame

10 Darkshards, Shield

Master, Cold One, HA, SDC, Shield, Sword of Might, Dawnstone
6 Cold One Knights, FC, Gleaming Pennant

War Hydra, Fiery Breath

Dark Riders, Mus

Dark Riders, Shield, Mus

3x Reaper Bolt Thrower
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