A Tactical Discussion on "The Battle in the Temple"

Old campaign - Where the druchii members discussed the Storm of Chaos campaign.

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Rasputinii
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Post by Rasputinii »

Nekroskop:
I do apologise I am totally wrong. I totally missed that rule, beliving that only the annointed and aspiring champ had access to chaos armoury. Sorry about that - but at the same time - hehehehehhe - that makes life so much nastier. Thanks for bringing that to my attention - Now I must gop and see what nasty surprises and can throw out.

Sorry! My bad ;)

Also that is a very very good idea indeed. I love it. Yes!
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/\\//\
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Post by /\\//\ »

Fought a battle using the scenario today.

It started off going extremenly well for me with me easily destroying all his units by turn 5. However, as we went into the last turn (turn 7) my opponent reminded me that I would lose unless I destroyed ALL his units within the 18" square. I had destroyed all his units except his Scar Veteran which had charged the rear of a unit of Witch Elves who were in a building and ths in a 2x8 formation. If the Scar Veteran managed to hold out for that round of combat (he started turn 7 with full wounds and a 3+ save) the Lizardmen would win. Luckily I managed to wound him in the magic phase with Soul-Stealer and the Witch Elves just managed to kill him in combat so I won. However I was amazed at how close I came to losing despite destroying all his other units with minimal casualties suffered.

I find that cavalry in this scenario can really help us as I managed to get off 2 flank charges in the game. Cold One Knights can really help as their fear also comes into play. Salamanders aren't as much of a problem as they usually are as you can get into combat quicker and the Lizardmen player will have to spread his forces around the Temple meaning the Sallies will only be facing one half of your army.

To be fair the dice favoured me today and not my opponent but it did come as a big shock when I found out how close I actually was to losing the game.
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Anthrax
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Post by Anthrax »

Here is a lizard list that I will be fighting this weekend in this scenario, I think it is a pretty standard list that is tailored for this list. Lots of screens, and units that are hard to kill or break. The temple guard are really scary, -1 to hit with shooting, so they won't thin much at all.

So the aim should be to kill the rest and then focus all fire power on the temple guard?

ANy other suggestions on beating a list like this, or on what kind of units de players should take?


2300 Pts - Lizardmen Army No Name

Unit Name ## Mv WS BS St To Wo In At Ld Sv WSv Cp Dp US Cost
Slann Mage-Priest 1 4 4 3 3 5 8 2 1 9 4/2+ 4 2 5 625


* Temple Guard 20 435

Sun Standard of Chotec; full command


* Saurus Scar-Veteran 1 133

Tepok; +1 Die to Dispel Pool.
Charm of the Jaguar Warrior

* Saurus Scar-Veteran 1 148
Tepok; +1 Die to Dispel Pool.
Gleaming Pendant of Chotec

Saurus Warriors 16 222
full command

Salamander Hunting Packs 3 195

Skink Handlers 9


Kroxigors 3 174

Kroxigors 3 174

Skink Skirmishers 10 60

Javelin; Poisoned Shot. Range 8".

Skink Skirmishers 10 60
Blowpipe; 12" Range

Skink Skirmishers 10 70

Blowpipe; 12" Range, S3, 2x Multiple Shot, Poisoned.

Total Army Cost: 2296 Pts.
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Nekroskop
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Post by Nekroskop »

So he has 20 SKinks? That's it? And two blocks of Saurus, one of them Temple Guard and one of them Standard. Sound easy to me.
Hunt down the Skinks and Salamanders, then autobreak the two blocks with big units of Fearcausers (he didn't take the Fear standard, right?)
That's a 2nd gen Slann, right? Bring a lot of Dispels.
So, as stated before, some Dark Riders and X-Bowmen to shoot the Stinks, and the good old COK with Hydrabanner Breaker, plus one or 2 Chariots and maybe a Hydra.
He has nothing to flank you with, so you kill his two units one after the other. This one sounds really simple to me, more skinkwould worry me.
Just remember to flee from the charge of his Jaguar warrior Veteran, then Countercharge with your COK or other chariot and just run him over.
I waste him with my boltthrower!
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Anthrax
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Post by Anthrax »

there are 30 skinks and he did take the fear causing standard on his slann...

so need to avoid them like the plague, cause with US 28, they auto break most everything if they win combat.

Plan was to beat up on everything else first and then move to the TG.

However, i expect him to set up with skink screens on each side of his deploy so that we suffer -1 to hit (basically 6s with the dark riders, 7s with warriors with xbows and 5s on the rbts, in the first round of combat)

so our shooting will be much weaker than we are used to because firing at skinks is a pain in the bum.
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Orteo
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Post by Orteo »

Well he has almost half his army in one unit. So ignore it as much as possible. Since he has no support mages, 6DD and 4 scrolls should be enough to reduce his magic capability. You should be able to deal with the rest of the army.

I'd go CoS magic heavy, (high sorceress, and two lvl 2's). Rather than beating the uber unit, just force it to move. Cast Luxurious Torment on it, then lure it out of the 18" zone with a unit of DR. Either continue to lure it around, or just get it stuck in with a unit that will be able to keep it there, thanks to being Stubborn (a BSB would help with that)

Delusions can also be used to lure the uber unit out of the deployment zone, but you will have to make sure it gets stuck in combat, because he can dispel it in later turns.

I would try using a BSB with the ring of hotek. He should be able to kill enough to minimize damage taken back, and since he has a rerollable, stubborn ld 9, he should be able to stay nice and close to the Slann. Put him on a Cold One for the extra save and so he won't auto break.

So my choice of characters to use against this list (or any slaan/temple guard uber unit list) would be a lvl 4 and two lvl 2's, all with the mark of Slaanesh, and a BSB with the ring of hotek. Still you would be spending less than that one unit is worth, and you should be able to do quite a bit of damage with all that magic.
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Gumbi
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Post by Gumbi »

There is a little bit of confusion here, as anthrax has stuffed up posting the list, it is like this:

2nd Generation Slann Mage Priest,
BSB, Banner of Fear Causing
Plaque of +1 spell
Plaque of 2+ armour against shooting.
Diadem of Power

20x Temple Guard 435
Shields; full command
Sun Standard of Chotec (-1 to hit from shooting)

Saurus Scar-Veteran 133
GW, Shield, LA, Tepok; +1 Die to Dispel Pool.
Charm of the Jaguar Warrior

Saurus Scar-Veteran 148
GW, Shield, LA, Tepok; +1 Die to Dispel Pool.
Gleaming Pendant of Chotec

Saurus Warriorsx16 222
full command

Salamander Hunting Packsx3 195

Kroxigorsx3 174
Kroxigorsx3 174

Skink Skirmishers 10 60
Jav, Shield
Skink Skirmishers 10 60
Pipe
Skink Skirmishers 10 70
Pipe, Scout

Total Army Cost: 2296 Pts.

The very basic plan is to keep the big unit alive and win the game. Kroxigors are my flankers and will operate in combination with the single normal saurus unit. The temple guard have high US and should defeat+ autobreak any of the foolish stubborn druchii that come their way.

The magic defence isnt great, 6 dice, +1 to dispel, MR(1) on units in the temple - until it is broken. If anthrax takes heavy magic i will store 2 power dice for 8 dispel. Magic offense is kinda average, 6 dice, +1 for each spell he casts, so i can cast 2x2 dicers and 2x3 dicers a turn.

If a druchii BSB surfaces spell #1 in the wonderful law of metal will be employed, eat str5 hits.

Its my first attempt at this style list, if i was serious about tailor making to destroy him there would be 6 salamanders i guarentee it =P
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Oloth
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Post by Oloth »

A noble with the mark of Slaanesh can take specific Slaanesh items such as Bindings Of Slaanesh. You guys try the Army Builder v.II its great and its all in there. You plan you armies quickly and with no mistakes... ;)
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Post by Dimorti »

By the way that slann is eillegal as he can't have 2 plaques...just thought I'd stick it in :twisted:

I still think that one big unit of temple guard and slann + the rest in skinks is the worst case we can fight. He can pretty much take out all of our heavy hitters fast and take out our monsters fast too....chariots are pretty much a much against this kind of list as they're immune to poison.

Also a high born with all defensice stuff on a cold one with great weapon. 2+ save, 4+ regen, 5+ ward...and ld 10 stubborn and fear causer.

Could be worth it really in this case. Same thing with nobles, we can stick em in combat and pretty much make sure they never run...giving us time to take out the small targets. At the same time a good save protects them a bit more from 20+ skink poisoin shots....
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Nekroskop
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Post by Nekroskop »

Throw in an anointed with Quickening Blood, Great Weapon, Avatar of Slaanesh and Blood Armour. Throw him into the big Temple Guard in Turn 2 and watch him chew through the Saurus Characters and then go to work on the remaining guys. The Unit should be finished by Turn 5. He's stubborn on 9 rerollable and strikes first with 5 S7 attacks, should be save 1+ 5+ Ward after the first turn. None of the Oldbloods can take any kind of the punishment the anointed dishes out, and the Temple guard can't touch him.
I waste him with my boltthrower!
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Lightsbane
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Post by Lightsbane »

I would say that shooting is the best way to deal with the slann, deploy 5*10 rxb and 2 rbt, as he is a large target we hit him with double shot on long range with 4+, i promise, after two rounds of combat the slann is no longer throwing magics your way. Of course, thats unless he's got 2+ against shooting!
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Nekroskop
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Post by Nekroskop »

Which he has. Wouldyou please read the posts before you reply?
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Iromael
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Post by Iromael »

Dimorti you need to go read some rule books before you throw out statements like:

By the way that slann is eillegal as he can't have 2 plaques...just thought I'd stick it in :twisted:


That is COMPLETELY false. Here's the rule from the rulebook...

Only Slann Mage-Priests may take Sacred Plaques. A Slann is not limited to a single plaque, and may take more than one if they so wish(though one of each item may be taken per army).


I'm not sure about chariots being immune to poison either, you'll have to prove that one for me.
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Bleys
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Post by Bleys »

Iromael wrote:I'm not sure about chariots being immune to poison either, you'll have to prove that one for me.


Yes, chariots are immune to poison (see the Official Q&A PDF and/or Chronicles 2004, where they state that chariots are included in the "unliving" targets for immunity to poison). But just because they're immune to posion doesn't mean that they can't be shot down by enough fire power.

On top of that, if a character is put on a chariot then they are most definitely not immune to poison. When the shots hit you still have to randomize them, and if any of those 6s that are rolled to hit end up being distrubted to the character riding the chariot then he's just SOL ;)
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Oloth
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Post by Oloth »

Dimorti its is not illegal for slann to have 2 plaques... the rules says clearly that he is not limmited to one... And by the way I will agree with Nekroskop, throw in the anointed with Quickening Blood, Great Weapon, Avatar of Slaanesh and Blood Armour and watch them disappear... :twisted:
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Dark harlequin
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Post by Dark harlequin »

/\\// wrote:It started off going extremenly well for me with me easily destroying all his units by turn 5. However, as we went into the last turn (turn 7) my opponent reminded me that I would lose unless I destroyed ALL his units within the 18" square. I had destroyed all his units except his Scar Veteran which had charged the rear of a unit of Witch Elves who were in a building and ths in a 2x8 formation. If the Scar Veteran managed to hold out for that round of combat (he started turn 7 with full wounds and a 3+ save) the Lizardmen would win. Luckily I managed to wound him in the magic phase with Soul-Stealer and the Witch Elves just managed to kill him in combat so I won. However I was amazed at how close I came to losing despite destroying all his other units with minimal casualties suffered.

It went quite similar in my game, though I didn't speculate on destroying the the veteran on carnosaur but hoped to "loose" the fight against it after I wounded the saur. It frenzied and therefore had to pursue out of the square - game over. Victory for the Cult of Slaanesh. :twisted:

I knew that I couldn't beat every single lizard out of this square easily, so I chose to outmagic them. I used 5 magically active characters with Slaanesh spells (the magic missile) instead of investing points into rxb's.
This way I had some efficient shooting against skink skirmishers, as well as saurus warriors (S6 hits with no shooting modifiers).

It also helped to lure away a unit or two with the Slaanesh magic.
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Anthrax
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Post by Anthrax »

i played this scenario against the above lizardman list.

was quite close in the end, but my inability to take out sufficient numbers of the templeguard unit meant that even though I managed to get to it with fully ranked up warriors and the high born, i was unable to break them.

I was close to getting my executioners into their flank, which might have made all the difference, but they were unable to get through the krox they had hit in the flank (because he used handweapon, not great weapon, so i was getting 1-2 attacks per turn, with killing blow not in effect due to the krox being large.)

moral of the story, i did well with the rest of the army, and managed to beat the temple guard in 2 rounds of combat, but without cancelling their ranks, i couldnt win by enough, then he got some supporting troops in and with a US that large of fearcausing units, being stubborn didnt make a shred of difference.
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Post by Mightypeon »

As a LZM commander i will share my thoughtst about this battle:

At first: I am confused: the woridng for Scouts is contradicting itslef.
"Scout units must be set up with the rest of the army."
"Defending Scouts may be setup using the normal Scout rules before the Attacker's Scouts."
Can someone tell me what applies? I suggest that someone meant Skirmishers in the first place and scouts in the last place, but I am not sure.

Own setup:
I have to survive until turn 7.
If all of my units are out of the zone during a turn I loose.
If even a single Skink is still there I win.
The victory conditions arent that bad.
This has two implications: I cannot use some Skinks to move in during the last turn (which is my turn), someone has to stand there at all times.
The DEs deploy last and gop first, this is an enourmous advantadge.
I will have one turn to reform my defense and than they will propably close in.
All Druchii are also stubbron, which means that I have to kill them and even Harpies can tie me up.
In the version I know I cant even scout.
The ones who are also immune to psychology also become stubborn which is ott if oyu ask me.
One of the best investments is a Slann with a fear banner in a big TG unit.
The DEs have 2 ways to deal with him: A: Big scary annointed who does not break in combat with rank and file.
B: the Slannesh spell that makes me go out of my deployment zone.
The Slanesh spell only works with units that have LoS on something.
If I deploy Skinks before the TG they dont see anything and cant be affected by the spell.
The Annointed has to be shot.
He is T4 with 3 wounds probaly 3+ armour and 4+ ward.
Tunderbolts and Sallies seem like a good idea.
My goal would be to include a much Stubbron and or immune to spycholgy stuff as possible.
This would mean: Djeungle Swamrs
Saurus with spwaning of Tlaxcotl
Maybe stegadons

As I am the defender some Fire power is also needed. Sallies are always great agasint DE so I would not abandon them hrere.

Sample List:

2.nd Genariotn Slann with 16 fear causing TGs and a anti missle banner 963 points
Jaguar Saurus 168 points
level 2 Skink, Cube 140 points

3 Sallies 195
17 chosen with immune to psycholgy: 288

2x 10 Skinks: 120
2 Jungle Swamrs 120
1990 points
Plan:
Deploy temple gaurd in a pretty long rank overing two sides.
Deploy Saurus Warrios with the Jaguar Saurs to cover another side
Rest is covered by Swarms and Sallies.

Magic selection: Direct damage, propably a mix of Fire Death and Metal, some Heavens for the Skink.

Turn one: reform TGs so that they face the biggest enemy unit,
prepare to shoot up targets, starting with the annointed if he has one.
If not CoK and devoted ones.
Most imperative thing is deispelling the "U go there spell" of the Slaneesh lore.
Get my Skink Sham,sn into a kinda save postion to use him for the Slanns Magic Missles.
Use JsoD to kill chariots.
Park my Swarms in a safe place outside the temple and move them in if needed.
Avoid CC with them. They my little supiorse.
As I plan for the worst I assume that the majoirty of my army will be dead or near dead on turn 6.
This is were I would move the Swamrs in.
The DE now has one turn to get rid of them.
It can be assumed that I am not goign to put them in a chargeable position.
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Oloth
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Post by Oloth »

Oh God not another kermit on our forums. Whats wrong with you guys, dont you have a better place to go? :evil:
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Whiteboypolka
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Post by Whiteboypolka »

hey Oloth, that was uncalled for.

Whilke they aren't druchii, they're still welcome on our forums.

and anyway, the storm is over by now, so the temple battle scenario is receding ack into one of them "I oughta try this sometime" "naw" things.

so enjoy it while the battles count, and pay more respect for the foes who proved themselvs just as worthy as uys!
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