Reforming the COP list

Decado slayer of the weak · Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:31 pm

First I must mention that I started to collect WHFB because I always wanted to play a Slaanesh oriented DE army. Now thanks to SOC, it is possible. All of my battles I used the COP list. Now after several experiences, I would like to share You my ideas how I reform the COP list if I were in a leading position in GW

First of all I would make a rule that the number of chaos units (mortal and daemonic altogether) can not exceed the numbr of DE units. We play DE, not chaos, right? It is a bit frustration to me that now I can make a list only including marauders/daemonettes+ chaoswarriors+MDs+chaosknights/spawn led by a DE general. I do not want this.

Second: All armies have something free (detachment rule, free wardsave, not to mention HE). I want GW to make Mark of Slaanesh FREE for our characters. It can be a free option, but not a must for all character.
The reason is: our characters are already too expensive, and the mark in some cases is more like a curse (lack of fleeing of the general for example) than a valuable addition. And after all, this is a Slaaneshi army, right?

Third: core units: nothing to change here, they are good as they are.
The only exception is RXB, which NEVER earned it's point cost back to me. Am I the only one who find that RXBs are totally useless? I would change them in either making them poisoned, or simply dismiss the -1 penality for two shots. But this change should effect all other DE list. Of course this change must have a price, such as +2 pts/ model, but probably it is worth to
make rxb armed units usable.

Forth: Special units: I like them! But I have a great idea (in my opinion at least) to allow Slaanesh marked Dark Rider units to wear chaos armour for +6 pts/model. Now we can have a reasonable medium cavalry with 3+ AS, but which can not flee, so need a bit different use than in bait tactics.
Chaoswarriors: I simply think they are not worth the points. A well armed unit of 12 with a magic standard costs 304 pts, a price of two units of MDs, so their useness is limited for their cost. Something is must be done with them as noone plays with this unit. And what is the reason of a unit in a list if it is never used? But I have no idea what to do with them

Fifth: Rare units: Compared to the standard list, we have one less rare choice (chaosknights are not calculated, as they use two slots). So I would add another choice, a one that I think is a great addition to COP. That is chariots, althought not cold one chariost, but Tiranoc Chariots with MOS for 95 pts/piece. You can add two of them for one rare choice. Fluffwise they are HE who betrayed their race for Slaanesh. A nice idea, and can be a source of many good conversion

These are my ideas how to reform our list. I think these changes do not effect the game balance (I do not want an overpwered list), but adding some more option to the players. I ask You to tell your opinion about it, and what else you would change on COP list. If most of You are share my opinion, I will try to contact GW. Honestly I think that our list is so new, that it will be changed only in 7th edition of WHFB. But it does not matter, as in this case we will ready for that, and hopefully can influence a bit the new list.

Thanks for reading it.

I stay as always: Decado

Hakstege · Post by **Hakstege** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:53 pm

<sarcasme>I think the DE need another Army List, since 3 is obviously not enough. I think DE should be able to take all magic items that are avaiable in the WH world. I think DE should be able to always cast irresistable spells just by throwing a die.</sarcasme>

DE already got a sh*tload of new magic itmes with the new CoP list and alot of heavy hitting units. Aren't you DE players ever satisfied?

Tnt · Post by **Tnt** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:31 pm

hmmm

first: yes
second: The marks represent that a character is (more or less) favoured by the gods and is trying real hard to earn that mark, therefore it costs. And besides, maby you wan´t to flee with a lone character sometimes?
third: the -1 penalty is because they reload the same turn as they fire but if you wan´t you can skipp the second shot and they work as an elite bowmen, besides if you kill two or three models per game they still make up for their points cost, if the enemy unit (wich they fired on) gets in to close combat with one less rank and don´t outnumber you thats a difference of 3 in combat resolution and thats more than a warbanner. And giving them poison is the same thing as calling them overpowerd.
Forth: no, no and no! chaos armour is for those chosen by chaos, not for the scouts. And for the wariors, I can understand how you think but a 16 block of wariors with hw and shield, combined with raptorus standard makes them a unkillable unit who holds anything even bretonia knights and when they are in close combat flank the enemy.
fifth: The cult of slanesh was founded by morathi and she wen´t to the chaos wastes from Naggaroth, not ulthuan. Tiranoc Chariots can only be found in ulthuan not in Naggaroth so why would morathi go all the way to the pathetic islandfor some godfornothing (I didn´t mean goodfor...) when she can spawn a greater Deamon or two?

Evilzealot · Post by **Evilzealot** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:04 pm

I do think there are too many chaos elements, I believe my CoP army has more chaos than DE.

Free marks? No. Even chaos (the chosen of GW) doesnt get free marks.

Why should CoP crossbows be better than normal Rxb? They are broken in general IMHO, but I just dont use them.

3+ armor save Fast cavalry? I believe this is a joke. Why would our dark riders get this before our CoK? DR shouldnt have this, even CoK shouldn't have this!

Why would we have a HE unit, for a M9 chariot? I could understand a Steed of Slaanesh chariot, but no High Elves. This doesn't solve the problem of "less chaos", unless it's a Dark Elf crew with a steed of slaanesh. Anyways, I don't think we need/deserve this change.

Overall, the CoP list is well done. No change.

/\\//\ · Post by **/\\//\** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:10 pm

The list is essentially a hybrid list and if people decide to have all Chaos units bar the Sorceress General they will soon realise they would be better off collecting a regular chaos army than having the half-arsed Slaanesh Chaos army the CoP list offers.

Rautha korhadril · Post by **Rautha korhadril** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:12 pm

First of all I would make a rule that the number of chaos units (mortal and daemonic altogether) can not exceed the numbr of DE units

This seems reasonable, and it makes sense fluffwise

Second: All armies have something free (detachment rule, free wardsave, not to mention HE). I want GW to make Mark of Slaanesh FREE for our characters

Disagree on this one...you could have a Slaanesh-worshipping Druchii but is not favoured (ie no mark).

Third: core units: nothing to change here, they are good as they are.
The only exception is RXB

RxB's are fine they way they are. Sure they are a little useless against some armies, but it all depends on their target. i.e. don't shoot the heavily armored Chaos warriors, shoot the Marauder horsemen!

Forth: Special units: I like them! But I have a great idea (in my opinion at least) to allow Slaanesh marked Dark Rider units to wear chaos armor

No! It would make more sense for marked CoK's to wear Chaos armor, not the light Cavalry!

but Tiranoc Chariots with MOS for 95 pts/piece

Even if you had Slaanesh-corrupted Asur, I don't think they'll just put aside their millenia of hatred of the Druchii just because they worship the same god.

Decado slayer of the weak · Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:20 pm

I edited my original post as I forget to mention that the changes on RXB must come with a price of course. And I called for a poll.

hakstage: I like COP, and do not feel it is overpowered now. For example all cavalry are special or rare unit. My suggested changes not make the list more powerful (except the free mark, counting on 3 characters (as Annointed has it basically) it is a free 60pts which can be spent elsewhere), but make t more colorful.
What change you don't like?

The Chaos Armour seems to be a bit harsh, but it has the same effect as a heavy armour+shield. And DRs still has S3, S4 on the charge. Tht is IMHO not overpowered, just makes them more survivable. And I think CA is better here because in this case DAs can not have the bonus for fighting with HW+shield (a 2+ AS in close combat, that is really I do not want to). So CA is underpowered compared to HA+shield as you see. And I try to change DRs as most army use MDs intead, who causes fear, and have 2 S4 A. I myself dropped my DRs from my list and use MDs instead. But this option makes them an interesting choice. And only DRs with MOS can wear CA, do not forget it. No way to allow CA to COKs, that would be really powergaming.
About heavy hitters: COKS are the only in the COP list, but they are stupid. MD are medium, against infantry they are good, but with 5+ save they die fast. Chaos warriors are damn slow, and very expensive. Innercircle knight for example are heavy hitters, core heavy cavalry like silverhels are too, but not T3 S3 modells in a COP army. So I not think you are right.
I really do not understand you.

TNT:
First:

Second: Yes, sometimes I want to flee with my lone character, for example when she is charged by fiers, or tunnelling skavens. It happened to me.
Third: skinks also have poison, and noone call them overpowered. S3 shots are not very useful. When you shoot at a 30 strong unit of orks, and remove 3, they are still outnumber you and not lost a single rank. And you spent 120 points for this unit that is weak in HTH, and weak in shooting as can not damage anything beacuse of either can not hit it (moveing, firing 2, long range: 6+ or 5+ if fire only one bolt), or can not wound it (4+ on avarage to wound), and even if successfully wound it, enemy can take AS. My shades proving themself in CC, not shooting at all.
Forth: I wrote the answare to it to hakstage. To CWs: M4 is slow. If you defend, they are good, but a spawn can do the same for 75 pts, and not 350. If you want the to use halberds, providing S5, to be effective against cavalry, than they have only 5+ save. So mostly can not strike back.Conclusion: I did not say they are not good, but they are way too expensive for what they can do.
Fifth: Ok, you are right, my fluff is, well... not good enough.
But I try to have a chariot on the list wich pulled by darksteeds, so has good M, but do not go stupid. As COP mostly an infantry based list, these chariots can be useful. And it is a rare choice compared to the HE special. You said you oppinion about the fluff, but not about the unit.

Ranieth · Post by **Ranieth** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:21 pm

I only agree on the first one of these suggestions.

Oh, and I believe that you are the only one who finds the RXB worthless!

Decado slayer of the weak · Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:54 pm

Ok, seems that noone like CA on DRs. Than what about adding a shield to them instead? This is only for marked DRs. My goal is to have a fastcav that is a bit more CC oriented and more survivable than MDs. A shield is good, as provide 4+ AS, 3+ in CC after first turn.

Chariots: call it what you like, but stats are same as tiranoc chariots, except +10 pts for the MOS. I keep my opinion that this is a good idea.

Coldheart · Post by **Coldheart** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:35 pm

The only change that I would want made, is to have the addition of
Marauder Horsemen; just to meet the fluff. The Maruder tribe the Cult of Slaanesh is allied with is the Hung, and the Hung are famous throughout the Warhammer world for their horsemanship; and those they have sworn fealty to, don't get full use of their allies resources? That's pushing it IMO. And they could put a 0-1 or, 0-2 in the core choices, and I would be happy.

Valtor the tainted · Post by **Valtor the tainted** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:31 pm

look even if u think that the list should be remade GW isnt going to do it aftertey just spent months prepareing and designing it

Oloth · Post by **Oloth** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:39 pm

The COP list is not perfect but I think its ok as it is. But even if it wasnt GW is not going to change something in it after SOC. Has something like that ever been done before?

Violatorx · Post by **Violatorx** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:59 pm

ahem... so far i have found almost no faults in the new list except for no chariots which isn't a huge drawback if your a good player and can work around that... but what im tired of is people who are constantly dissatisfied with the dark elves or any race really. its just tiresome to come in to the GW and see people cussin over "aww my army is too weak it should be able to launch nukes and all my bowmen should have explosive heads on thier arrows" get over it! i havn't seen a list more satisfying to play and paint ever next to this one. it has everything anelf warlord would want- high toughness warrior units weak defensive units, 2 types of heavy cav, fast cav, weak slavish units, fear causing deamons and fearsome shooting abilities if need be. so what the hell are you still whinging about get the hell over it. when i was young i was told not to complain about what i dont have and rather be glad for what i do have... and if you so want chariots and better shooting and heavy/ fast cav collect bloody HE coz they got it and we aint stoppin you

Decado slayer of the weak · Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:27 am

Coldheart: In fluffwise, you got right. But our DRs far more better than these marauders. And they would be special choice as all cavalry in COP, and there are too many better special choice in the list. But I like the idea of you.

violatorX: I think you should try to learn reading. I do not understand people like you who can not say a word without offense. What I wrote is not whining (hey, I NEVER lost with my COP list, and can play with it), but a few ideaos of mine. I like DE, and COP exactly, and satisfied with them, but as all people, I always want to try new things. I am NEVER complained about them being weak, I enjoy playing with DE. What I not enjoying, is wasting my time to people like you who can not understand others and do not respect others.

PS: And when I was young and I could not have something, I told to DO something that allows me to have the desired subject.

Oloth · Post by **Oloth** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:31 am

Guys nomatter if you are whining or not the COP list is ok as it is and even if it sucked there is no way it is going to change. So there is no need to discuss it any further IMO. No offence ok?

Decado slayer of the weak · Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:51 am

Oloth: I did not say that the list will change. I do not own GW

As I wrote before it will change in the 7th edition only. But I wanted to know what is the opinion of other druchii.net members about it, and wrote my experiences and ideas about the list.
So I think you are not right about "no need to discuss it". Isn't there anything that you would change in COP without effecting the gamebalance? Do YOU ever think about it? Being creative is nice. If only every fifth of your idea is great, than what? In this case you have a few useful idea, while those who never start thinking will have none. That is my point of view.

But I agree with you: no offence. The second reason of mine to collect DE is druchii.net, as I think it is a good community (there are exceptions, ok, but where aren't?). I had a lot of help from others (like DA, Rasp, Ash...), and I try to help others if I can.

I created this thread to force a bit of brainstorming about the possible further improvement of COP.
That was my goal, and I hope we will reach it together.

I stay as always: Decado

Oloth · Post by **Oloth** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:08 am

Ok Decado you are right, so here's what I dont like in COP. CKs shouldnt use 2 rare choices or there should be at least an option to use 2 units as 2 choices or 1 unit as 2 choices and also a choice for a chosen CKs unit. I hate the fact that there arent any chariots and executioners although execs dont fit with the COP fluff. I also think that all DEs with MOS should have their T modified to 4 or be able to wear CA and mostly DRs. I mean they loose their ability to flee with MOS wich is their usual use as bait why cant they get an exchange for that? Also in rare choices a new artifact would be cool in replacement of Cauldron Of blood, something with similar effects on Devotes instead of witch elves. Thats all I can think realy quickly now in 4am. Time to go to bed. See you guys tomorrow!

Coldheart · Post by **Coldheart** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:02 pm

Oloth: you sound like you still just want to play the traditional DE list but, with the god Khaine replaced with Slaanesh!

Oloth · Post by **Oloth** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:30 pm

Maybbe I do Coldheart or maybe its just cause I was in a way pushed in a way to say what I would like quickly and as I said it was 4am in the morning so all that popped in my head at the time were just that and if we consider that I play the traditional DE list for some time now and I'm used to it, these words came out in sort of like a habbit or something...

Decado slayer of the weak · Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:16 pm

Oloth: there is no problem about saying what you thinking. Express yourself

Coldheart: Don't be so critique! Try to take it easy!

I was away beause of: http://www.sziget.hu/ The ultimate festival!
I saw Sugababes in live from the firts rank (wow, they ARE sexy!) and will be there to see Faithless presenting their new album first time LIVE (I've got it ,good music!). I suggest you to be there, parties every day, and what babes!!! Man I had a good time there!

Reforming the COP list

Is COP good as it is now?

Reforming the COP list