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Old campaign - Where the druchii members discussed the Storm of Chaos campaign.

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Quendi
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Post by Quendi »

my opponent uses 3 units of saurus and 3 scar veterans in a 1500 pts army.plus 4 kroxigors and a little group of skinks what is the best option to beat them
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/\\//\
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Post by /\\//\ »

Quendi wrote:my opponent uses 3 units of saurus and 3 scar veterans in a 1500 pts army.plus 4 kroxigors and a little group of skinks what is the best option to beat them


Can you give us more detail? How big are the Saurus units? Do the Scar Vets join them? What is it about the list you have trouble with?
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Psychologic
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Post by Psychologic »

I have another prob..... !frown!
My other friend is a great fan of Cavalry....
He uses the Lizard Dogs of War, a Stegadon, 2 jungle swarms, 3 Terradons, Saurus Cavalry, Salmanders, Old Blood on Carno and some other Skink regiments. I don't try to kill those pesky little Skins, but the rest is a big prob for me. I use 2 sorcs, a lot of RxB fire (2 units of 16 and a RBT) and 2 chariots with one HB in them with the Lifetaker. So I can fire a lot, but the Old Blood and the Saurus are just to strong for me and the Salamanders kill my units very easy.
What to do now?
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Psychologic
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Post by Psychologic »

Ow yeah. Those darn Terradons with their Hit-and-run attacks aren't too much of a prob (kill them with RxB)
Mightypeon
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Post by Mightypeon »

@ /\\//\
/\\//\ said:
"Remeber that item is one use only. Try and use a unit of Dark Riders or Shades to bait him into using that spell. Sacrifice the unit and use the time he is in combat to position your troops into flanking positions etc."

I do not fear this approach to much. I mean there are always better targets and a decent LZM general propably wont fall for it.
In addition, outmaneuvering a ridden independant character is something even dark Elfs do not manage without serious Slaanesh Magic.

A more exploitable weakness is his magic vulnerbalitly. This has several reasons:
A: If there is a Saurus BSB there can not be a Slann, as Saurus can only have a BSB if no Slann is in the army.
B: A Saurus BSB is using one of his two "mark slots" for the Mark of Itzl in order to ride a Cold one. Because he costs 170+ points the other mark will rpopably be Quetzl (+1 armour save) or maybe the mark of the old ones (D3 rerolls, adds some protection, helps with stupidity and can be used to reroll the D6 move) but propably not Tepok.
It should be noted than one such banner will not make the foot Saurus amry significantly faster.
To maximise his potential the LZM army will propably consist of Kroxiogrs, Stegs, Saurus Cavalry and some odd War machine/Mage hunters.
Note that none of this units can have a mark of Tepok.
So the only dispell dice will come from characters.
Because the other Chars will propably have this marks we can assume that the LZM army is only going to have 5 dispell dice and 2 dispell scrolls, in case of the Oldblood on Carni + Saurus BSB + Jsod + Skink shaman layout.
This could be changed to 7 dispell dice and no dispell scrolls or 5 dispell scroll and a cube of darkness.
As you see, their Magic defense will be lacking.



@ Quendi:
This army is slow, the only fast elements will be the Skinks (who will propably only fulfill screening duties) and a possible JsOD.
I would suggest to kill the kroxigors first.
Marchblock the Saurus unit and tackle them one by one.
Try using Slannesh Magic as it is significantly more dangerous than Dark Magic. Usiing the "hero hacks at his own unit" spell should give you some kills.
I assume that he is quite light on magic defense as his budget propably wont allow many marks of Tepoc, so play at your strengths, mobilty and magic.
Shooting is another issue, However this army will also have a lot of Skinks (even LZMs need core choices) and several units which can shield a ridden character.
A RBT would propably kill him but X-Bows would have a hard time.
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/\\//\
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Post by /\\//\ »

Something you may want to try against Salamanders.

Get a Noble and give him the Cloak of Dark Souls (the SoC item that lets him scout) and a Halberd/Great Weapon as well as some armour and perhaps an RXB and put him in a unit of Shades. Then use the unit to go after the Salamander unit. Try your hardest to annoyt the hell out of the unit by shooting it all the time and presenting a distraction. If the Salamanders look to be in a position where they might fry your main units then you can charge the Noble and Shades in in order to prevent this. They may even manage to win a few rounds of combat. Make sure that the unit has been weakened by shooting first and try and charge so you are in combat with as many Skinks/as few Slamanders as possible!
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Post by Sevwall »

Salamanders have a range of 21" when you factor in thier ability to move and shoot with no penalty. Those shades you talked about would be dead in the first round. Small groups of skirmishers are too tempting not to fire at with salamanders, as they do automatic hits that bypass any penalties to firing at skirmishers.
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Darkspear
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Post by Darkspear »

I find that Chariots, Cold One Knights, and Hydras are all good tools for dealing with Skinks. Especially Chariots as they cannot be poisoned and are T5


i agree with u except the part on chariots. perhaps its a matter of gaming culture but the lizzie players over here like to place their skinks within forests and swamps/river(yet still within 2 inches so they can see). with such a manuveurr, our chariots will be useless. but i agree with u totally regarding coks and hydras.

i also like to point out that corsairs will be extremely useful in games with lizzies. i sometimes(dependent on situATION) put my corsairs as a single line...thus making a sort of a net to trap the skinks. they will have to move to the side to avoid my corsairs and thus entering the charge arc of other units.

against skink intensive armies, i will not used witch elves(i have used them for a few times b4 the campaign and have regreted). the enemy will simply flee when we charge, not to mention witchelves as a tempting target for sallies. again corsairs r useful. the witch elves-corsair balance is a big problem for me as i need the former to take out saurus yet they r vulnerable to shooting unlike corsairs.
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Quendi
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Post by Quendi »

thanks for help.I have just massacred them with your tactics. :mrgreen:
Our foes will be sorry now,the Black Guard is here.
Mightypeon
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Post by Mightypeon »

Hmm, my Skinks are usually most concerned with fast indivdual characters, Hydras are actually good poison targets, Chariots cant engage them where they want to be etc....
To make it short, you need something with a decent armour save, 360 sight degree and scouting or high movement.
However, the easiest way to get rid of Skinks are the movmenet resitrcing Slanesh/Dark Magic spells.
Cold one Knights are overkill.
If your prime unit is hutning some 80 pointers you are doign something wrong.

The Corsair idea is interesting, however both Terradons and/or a JSoD could easily crush them.
If you take care of the Terras (Slannesh "You move there" spell comes to mind) it should proably work agasint Southlands.
But watch for Swarms who stop your screen and prevent your units from moving while 5 Shamans attack you with the Heavens lore.
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Valtor the tainted
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Post by Valtor the tainted »

Maldor wrote:I doubt magic will work, considering he is a fan of the Sacred Spawning that gives extra dispel dice. Harpies are a good idea, but being 0-1 they won't be able to make as big a whole as I'd like.

ya but harpie leadership is just so horrible
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Lord Veshnakar
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Post by Lord Veshnakar »

The key to defeating lizardmen for me is to take out the support units and spend the the game avoiding the big point-sinks you can outmanouver (IE the super saurus block, temple guard w/slann, ect)
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Soteks chosen_
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Post by Soteks chosen_ »

My point exactly Sevwall.
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Mightypeon
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Post by Mightypeon »

Lord Veshnakar wrote:The key to defeating lizardmen for me is to take out the support units and spend the the game avoiding the big point-sinks you can outmanouver (IE the super saurus block, temple guard w/slann, ect)


Well said, this sums it up quite good.
The only difficultiy is killing the LZM support without getting your own support killed.
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Darkspear
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Post by Darkspear »

given the fluid nature of lizardman units(they work well in small teams and except saurus they move rather fast), i have realise that many units are needed to effectively flank and outfight them. I have been using corsairs to great success, the fact that they r core, second cheapest infantry and the protection vs shooting make them xtremely useful vs the reptiles. i have successfully use them to flank saurus and krox. although spearmen are also veri gd...they tend to get blown apart easily by salamanders and skinks. i advice blocks of spearmen accompanies by squads of abt 10 corsairs.

my advice is try nt to use witch elves...as the lizzies units wrk well in small grps..chances r that the enemy can flee and counter charge with stuff of their own..not to mention the lack of armor makes salamanders love them.

several players have advise charging skinks with knights. apparently this look like an excessive use of force but the fact is that it is not so. many a times charging skinks with knights will enable us to punch thru the lizardman line(due to rolling 3d6 for purssuing) thus threatening the enemy flanks and/or rear. in addition by breaking skinks we can spark off a series of panic tests. although enemy roll 3d6... by forcing them to take panic tests....they will fail some at one point.

I know that my advice r generic de advices...i hope someone will give some advice for the CoS dudes
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Sotek
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Post by Sotek »

I play lizardmen but I haven't got many succes with saurus in CC but I think that happens cause I've got very bad luck with my dice rolls. you can fight salamanders with shades...just let them scout(or you can hope they roll misfire and than eat 3 skinks and flee or something like that) and just panic the skinks...they only got a leadership of 5...

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Darkspear
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Post by Darkspear »

Sotek wrote:I play lizardmen but I haven't got many succes with saurus in CC but I think that happens cause I've got very bad luck with my dice rolls. you can fight salamanders with shades...just let them scout(or you can hope they roll misfire and than eat 3 skinks and flee or something like that) and just panic the skinks...they only got a leadership of 5...

Sotek


i dun see how shades can panick the salas. letting the salas panic by eating skinks is something that cannot be relied on. honestly i sometimes doubt if ur advice r genuine...no offense though
In my land, everyone calls me the darkspear. The most famous spearmen commander of all.
Mightypeon
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Post by Mightypeon »

Ok, A: the Salamander does not do a panic test if he eats Skinks.
Remeber, you do Panic test if you loose more than 25 percent by shooting or Magic, exceptions, like Fanatics or Sqauigs for this instance have to be specically metionoed.
Point B: Your Shades will have to move to get the Sally, in addition, the Sally is a Skrimishers, and could well be in cover. We can also figure penalties for longrange in.
Usually, they got hit an at least a 6, more often a 7 or 8.
You need 2 skink kills for a panic test.
Each hit on a Sallie has a roughly 22% chance to get a Skink.
So, roughly one out of 4 Hits will get one.
This means you have to land 8 hits on the Sally to be abit ensured to force and LD check.
To get 8 hits on almost optimal conditions, you would need some 48 shots, this eqauls to 24 shades.
Good luck with this.
The best things against Sallies are either RBTS (better chance to hit, can reliably kill the Sally) and magic Missles, which either have S5 or prevent him from shooting.
One could also get him with titilating delusions or with the Slannesh frenzy spell. However, Frenzied Salamanders could get quite pesky so watch out for 3S5 attacks in CC.
Oh, LD of 5 cold blooded is roughly as good as a 50/50 chance, you are risking pretty expensive shades for this strat.
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