Cult of Tzeentch?

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Calapine
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Post by Calapine »

As for the change thing, I'll agree that the Dark Elves have a strong society infrastructure that would come first. But at the same time there is a lot of political intrigue, betrayal, and so on. These are certainly symptoms of change, and of all the Chaos gods I think Tzeentch represents this the best. He's the one with the totally convoluted plans, remember? He has everything planned out. I would expect a small number of Elves, at least, to be drawn to Tzeentch. Not a large number, but certainly a small one. Probably young scholars: young ones because they're more accepting of change and because they're more ambitious. Scholars, of course, because they thirst for knowledge. Dark Elf fluff doesn't discuss the scholars that much, but I think they exist in reasonably large numbers. They're an intelligent, if cruel, society.

Sneaky you've hit the nail on the head here, Tzeentch loves all that political struggle for power stuff, he loves schemers and who can scheme like a DE noble.So i agree he could fit into Druchii society quite easily.
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Post by Darkprincess »

I suppose it might just be possible to have a renegade Druchii sorcerer who has studied Tzeentch magic. He wouldn't be up to much on his own - like Sneaky has said, the numbers he could call upon would be far too small.

However, if he were to go into battle alongside a Cult of Pleasure army, that might be an entirely different matter. I can't see any real objections to such a co-operation (you can't realistically call it an "alliance"), fluffwise.

Tzeentch and Slaanesh don't have the kind of enmity that you get between the CoP and the ToK, so this could actually work.

Then you'll get to take flying discs, screamers and horrors alongside daemonettes and Devoted. I'd love to do a conversion with a daemonette riding a screamer - that would be so good !

(No, I'm not biased towards this idea just because of the modeling possibilities - the concept itself does seem to be valid, especially in the context of Malekith not allowing male sorcerers - as such these guys would be likely to hide themselves away, and who knows what stuff they might be studying. The search for knowledge fits elven fluff almost as well as the search for pleasure).

Sine the ToK doesn't really like magic, we can assume that a great many sorceresses end up turning to Slaanesh to some extent or other - perhaps then, the male practicioners of the Art might turn to the Lord of Change - it certainly makes good fluff anyway :)
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Post by Danceman »

how annoying it would be, even more traitor kin to kill...

"Sine the ToK doesn't really like magic, we can assume that a great many sorceresses end up turning to Slaanesh to some extent or other - perhaps then, the male practicioners of the Art might turn to the Lord of Change - it certainly makes good fluff anyway"

ugfhnn! then we would indeed be chaos elves grrrrr
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Post by Monkeylord »

I'm SURE there are Dark Elves that worship Tzeentch.

But within the overall storyline of the dark elves, their numbers are so insignificant, it wouldn't matter. Just paint up a dark elf wizard, give him the stats of a chaos sorcerer, and there you have it.

If you want a Tzeentchi themed Dark Elf army, by all means, go to town. :) You can use flying disk models, but using the stats and points of a pegasus. Maybe a Black Arc accidentily beached itself in the Frozen Wastes, and was permeated by the influence of the Lord of Change...

Just be creative with the rules already established. Right now, though, there just isn't enough precident in the Dark Elf story line to warrent a Tzeentchi army list. Which in my opinion is a good thing. :) Like Danceman, I don't want to see the dark elves become Chaos Elves. That would be ghey. ;)

Slaanesh is as far as I want to see it go... and that's ONLY because Slaanesh is so integral to the Dark Elf fluff.
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Post by Darkprincess »

Well despite my own Slaaneshi tendencies, I don't want to see us become Chaos Elves either. I love the Slaanesh fluff and the new list etc. but we have to remember that although it was the worship of Slaanesh that created us as a race apart from the Asur in the first place, most of the Druchii population worship Khaine. I really REALLY don't want to see the CoP list becoming the main list in future editions of the army book. It is, and always should be, an optional list in the back of the book, never the main one.

I think that the Druchii are just fine the way they are already (especially since the revision), but the CoP list just addresses some fluff issues and for that alone is very welcome. But let's not turn the Druchii into something we're not.

As for the Tzeentch ideas, these are very interesting, although as I said earlier, I think it would be limited to a renegade sorcerer cooperating with the CoP on an individual mission or something similar, but not as another list in its own right - neither the numbers nor the fluff support this, and I'm right behind Monkeylord and Danceman on this matter.

It's interesting though, but I don't see it as much more than like having a Tzeentch warband of sorts fighting alongside my army.

I certainly don't think that GW will be following up this idea, as there is no basis in the fluff to make it workable. Maybe something like the Path to Glory stuff, with a renegade Druchii sorcerer leading a band of Tzeentch daemons - that might work.

Tzeencth isn't really my scene, although some of the models (and the magic) are great. If I ever decide to have anything like a screamer in my army, I'd most likely make it a Slaanesh flying creature/daemon and invent some rules and fluff for it, rather than making it Tzeentchian - after all, we get to see daemonettes and Keeper of Secrets, but who knows what else the Lord of Pleasure hasn't shown us yet...
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Post by Danceman »

yeah, i´m getting the feeling we´ll see alot more "normal" list after the SoC hysteria has calm itself a bit... but as it looks like now the CoP is vastly outnumbering the khaine-lists :)
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Post by Darkprincess »

Yeah, Danceman - it's only to be expected that people are going to want to take the new army for a spin, but I think most of us already know where our true allegiance lies.

I think us Slaaneshis will go back to being the minority faction that the fluff says we are once SoC is out of the way. There are too many people here who don't want to lose their executioners, for example.

In a way I'm the exception as I've been playing a Slaanesh list since I started with DE, and I'm happy to be Slaaneshi, but I don't think that the Khainists have too much to worry about - I think Khaine will always be the foremost Druchii god, and rightly so. The Slaanesh list has its place, and that's not as the main one.

A lot of people have spoken to me in the days since GW released the CoP list, saying that it's going to be fun to field daemons and stuff, but I think most of us prefer our armies just the way they already are.

I'm happy about the new list because it effectively legalises the unofficial list that I've always played (there are a few minor differences, but nothing significant), but unless people already have some Slaaneshi feelings (I can tell that you don't :) ), then I rthink that they wil go back to normal once the dust settles.
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Post by Veduhav »

If nothing else, at least the SOC got us some nice Magic items. Finally a decent bound item!
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Post by Monkeylord »

^^^ Amen to that! Sword of Spite! Weeee!
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Post by Lord rakash »

They could make path to glory for DE where you have a DE warband of khorne/tzeentch/slaanesh and maybe nurgle.. but i can see nothing in DE similar to nurgle...and there you could have special, new units like something between a witch elf and a daemonette or a bloodletter and a BG....

Just some thoughts.....
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

Hey sneaky, long time no speak-thought Id come back and see how all you old peeps on druchii.net are :D

Personally I think that the cult of tzeentch would be good-it is very in fluff with the DE background IMHO, and personally even more so than Khorne. My thinking behind this is (btw I dont believe khaine and khorne are the same-i think khaine is like a mix of slaanesh and tzeentch) that khorne goes about things in a blood thirsty lust for war and slaughter right? which is true to the old DEs, but generally DEs are'nt like that-apart from the old witch elves. True we do hunger the death of our poncy arrogant cousins, but our methods of dealing with things tend to be far more sneaky (pun not intended sneaky ;) ), and not frontal assault, because we know that we do not have to die from stupid ignorant charging straight at the enemy, we have devious and cunning methods, such as a distractory attack of dragons on the walls of a castle, whilst forces creep up on the parapets, and then attack at the last minute when the enemy least realise it. Anyway Im babbling. Basically, I believe that the Tzeentch ways of things fit far more logically than the khorne ones do-though I understand where u peeps are coming from on this matter. I think it also fits in the ways that the beasts of kharond kar are warped and changed (the many headed hydra for instance) and become more ferocious etc. Also, dark princesses point about the male wizards and how malekith decrees that none are to be in his land apart from himself would fit nicely into your idea of small scale covens of tzeentch worshippers.
However, I think that as with the approach of the SoC, and how the area that chaos is growing would affect us too. It isnt just extending towards the old world alone-it is the whole world. and In case you hadnt noticed before, Kharond Kar is right up north, hence the warpings of beasts, so I think that if anywhere, these renegade male wizards, and covens would be found far north, where the influence of change is prominent and far from malekiths watchful eye.
I think if we made a list based around this idea it would involve warping changes for our beasts-like the hydra variants, the adding of male spell casters-who may use say, chaos's normal magic items-and certain druchii items. The possabilities are great, and I love the idea so my opinion is very biased towards it and I know it 8) anyway I think it is a good idea-though should be very secretive. Nothing new really just thought Id do some writing ;)

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Post by Dangerous Beans »

HOLY COW! just went to bed, been reading through for stuff on possible hints about Tzeentch and found a little paragraph that may well be a very big hint-it certainly backs up what I loosely talked about-IMHO at any rate ;) Look for the paragraph called "the prophecy of demise" it is in The Dark Art area, beneath the "using the dark art in your games" heading... just take a read. I think the balde not forged by man, elf or dwarf doesnt rule out daemon, and the child refers to a 'he' and uses magic hehe!! any1 noticing a slight resemblence here? Anyway Im going to bed for now, cos its 2:20am here in sunny Oxford in England, so Im gonna get some zzZZzz for now.

I shall reply again soon, but until then dont eat beanz-theyre dangerous :D

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Post by Sneaky »

Nice to bump into you again, Beanz. One point of yours, shared by some other people, is something I should probably address.

I have no intention of creating a Cult of Tzeentch army list. There isn't a Cultist Empire list (barring the Mordheim one), and the cult in Naggaroth would be far smaller. I'm speaking in merely fluff terms. I think that, fluffwise, some nobles and scholars would feel the lure of Tzeentch.

Another thing I want to say is something I said before: if you want to argue about the decline into Chaos Elves, go away. It's a debate that's not really relevant to this topic and certainly not something I'm inclined to discuss. The Cult of Pleasure list was a long time coming because they are a strong sect of Druchii culture. This does not, to me, mark a decline into Chaos Elves. But I'm not gonna bother discussing further - it's a waste of time.

Veduhav: I have no idea why your post was relevant to this discussion. Care to elaborate?

Anyway, it's nice to hear your thoughts on the Tzeentch cult. I have decided that my Dark Elf characters are going to be Tzeentch Cultists, a small but still present sect of Dark Elf society that few even know about. My models themselves won't reflect this much (since I already have the models and love them lots) and there will be no special rules or anything.

Also, I hereby declare myself the Magister of the Cult of Tzeentch here on Druchii.net (totally unofficial and secretive, so my rank will remain Daemon Prince as always). I will speak no more of this in public, but the sect shall grow and we shall further the grand plans of the Lord of Change. As for my justification in being Magister, I can only offer that while I might not have thought of the idea first, I said something about it first. :mrgreen:
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Post by Danceman »

darkprincess: ah yes, my favourite models is corsairs,black guard and execs... and witches :) i was one inch away from making a slaanesh force using black guard as chosen of slaanesh but in the end i gave that general the axe... or the draich might suit it better.

even though the CoP lists might fall off abit i still see a strong prescence of them as yourselves there seem to be quite alot who like slaanesh... well wouldnt... pleasure is good :P encased in chaos armour bad :D

i like slaanesh as said but not with the druchii, slaanesh warriors should be similiar to dark elf models but... ah well look slaaneshi ;)

but in the mean time my little fanatic khaine theme list will chop and kill some slaaneshi scum ;)

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Post by Dangerous Beans »

hehe thanks danceman ;) good to see you again too :D did any1 get a chance 2 read the little section I mentioned? I was a little hyped last night I have 2 admit, so kinda blew things out of proportion, and sneaky, yeah I totally agree with what u said-I was pondering over the idea ever since the chaos book came out. hmmm, maybe I'M turning into a chaos elf !eek! lol!! anyway that little passage just seemed a little strange to me thats all+the fact that it talked about malekith dieing to flames, which could obviously be the flames from which he suffered before, thus suggesting malekith will reach that far into Ulthuan, or perhaps more suspiciously, it involves the flames that Tzeentch are so fond of ;) anyway, if you're becoming the leader of the cult, do u need any followers? hehe! :D
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Post by Peda »

I think that the only Chaos good who goes into DE fluff is Slaanesh and that is only becuze of Moriathi (damn her).
Khorne is to brutal and DE use magic whitch is against khorne
Tzeentch is... well it just don´t seem right, not evil enough
Nurgle: well come on give me a break elves don´t get sick.

I think Khorne is Khaine


You know, acidents does happen...

Seriusly, the DE have always been fighting Chaos ( the northern border thing) and it just don´t make sense, Slaanesh meaby, Teezetch... everything is possible but Khorne or Nurgle...NO WAY!
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Post by Rasputinii »

I think ther e no doubt would be such worshippers, and proberbly those dark elves that worship even starnager gods, perhaps those from cathay and that, but the question sould surely be not do they exist but should they be represented in the rules?

Answere: No!

Not beause they aint kool, because it seriously would be, but becaue ts both inpractical and makes the DE army to powerful and diverse which would in the end cause people to not use the original list as well as the fact they are not commonly know about.

Instead I suggest that people merely adapt and convert their models to look more Tzeenchian or what ever, explain it in their fluff, and take what ever units they feel fit the list. Indeed I plan to mount my HS on a Disc to represent a DP.
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Re: Cult of Tzeentch?

Post by Nineswords »

Sneaky wrote:For everyone who will probably jump on my back because they don't want to see their dearly beloved Dark Elves fall into the trap of becoming "Chaos Elves" instead of a completely separate race in their own right, please shut up. That's not what I'm suggesting here, and I want to see the Dark Elves preserve their culture and heritage as much as you guys. I think that the Cult of Pleasure is simply a natural extension of the fact that anyone can fall prey to the caresses of the Dark Gods and that Chaos is a large part of the Warhammer world. The Magister and his Cultists haven't brought about the collapse of the Empire into a Tzeentch worshipping state, and it's not going to happen.

Which brings me to my actual point. (I had a point?)

Khaine is obviously a large part of Dark Elf culture, but there surely must be some who worship other gods. There is obviously the Cult of Pleasure, but surely some elves worship the other gods as well? Not just Chaos gods: they would likely worship other gods that may be out there (some no doubt false ones). The Chaos Gods are probably stronger, however. There is some contention among fluff freaks about whether Khaine is, in fact, Khorne (my view is that he isn't - he's a god in his own right). I'm pretty sure that elves are smart enough to notice the connection, and perhaps some are quite convinced of this. I would expect some community to exist in Naggaroth where elves all worship Khorne in the firm belief that Khaine is indeed Khorne in another guise. Tzeentch is, to me, a very important god for a race of people who thirst for knowledge and power. A sect worshipping Tzeentch is probably a good deal smaller than the Khaine worshippers and the Slaanesh worshippers, and even the misguided Khorne worshipper that are probably out there, but it surely must exist.

I'm interested to hear others' thoughts on this. I've wondered about it for some time, because I think my own army has a tint of Tzeentch about them and I sometimes wonder (when I'm drunk) whether they are indeed Tzeentch cultists. Perhaps my general is the Magister and he never bothered telling me.


The lure of Tzeentch calls to many, be it the kurgan to Empire men, how many learned scholars and sorcerors have fallen prey to the promises of power from Tzeentch? No one escapes. I assume both Asur and Druchii are prime targets due to their grasp of Qyish and Dhar Aethyr respectively.

Take Kauldors knights for example, they are made from not Maurauder horsemen, rather former knights of bretonnia, the empire, estalia, tilea, the list goes on. how many more warriors who fight for the lord of change are druchii, or Asur, or even Slann?

Id love the idea of a dark elf sorceror turning to Tzeentch and taking a few acolytes with him to battle it out in the chaos wastes...
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Re: Cult of Tzeentch?

Post by Dangerous Beans »

Uriour wrote:The lure of Tzeentch calls to many, be it the kurgan to Empire men, how many learned scholars and sorcerors have fallen prey to the promises of power from Tzeentch? No one escapes. I assume both Asur and Druchii are prime targets due to their grasp of Qyish and Dhar Aethyr respectively.

Take Kauldors knights for example, they are made from not Maurauder horsemen, rather former knights of bretonnia, the empire, estalia, tilea, the list goes on. how many more warriors who fight for the lord of change are druchii, or Asur, or even Slann?

Id love the idea of a dark elf sorceror turning to Tzeentch and taking a few acolytes with him to battle it out in the chaos wastes...


Amen to that Uriour! :D
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Post by Enthardon »

Nevereine wrote:I think ther e no doubt would be such worshippers, and proberbly those dark elves that worship even starnager gods, perhaps those from cathay and that, but the question sould surely be not do they exist but should they be represented in the rules?

Answere: No!

Not beause they aint kool, because it seriously would be, but becaue ts both inpractical and makes the DE army to powerful and diverse which would in the end cause people to not use the original list as well as the fact they are not commonly know about.

Instead I suggest that people merely adapt and convert their models to look more Tzeenchian or what ever, explain it in their fluff, and take what ever units they feel fit the list. Indeed I plan to mount my HS on a Disc to represent a DP.


Yes, this is impracticle to represent them in the army. I mean, if you were to represent every unique sect of a society, imagine the High Elf army book. With all of our provinces, there would be 10 army lists, not to mention all the various religious orders. Tzeentch is most certainly in DE society, and may offer a bit of interesting fluff points but nothing more. You guys have two varried army lists and I think that should satisfy the main forces in druchii society.
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Post by Sneaky »

Sneaky wrote:I have no intention of creating a Cult of Tzeentch army list. There isn't a Cultist Empire list (barring the Mordheim one), and the cult in Naggaroth would be far smaller. I'm speaking in merely fluff terms. I think that, fluffwise, some nobles and scholars would feel the lure of Tzeentch.


OK, it's arrogant to quote myself, but what the heck. I do totally agree with Rasputin about the rules.

By the way, I flipped through my Dark Elf book and noted a passage that stated that Malekith was aware of elves worshipping other sects. So there is no doubt that people worship other gods. Tzeentch, being such a powerful god, would obviously be worshipped.

Peda: are you seriously telling me that one of the four Chaos Gods is "not evil enough"? Wow. That has to be a first.
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Post by Seraphyn »

or if your lazy you could just simply change every slaanesh thing into tzeentch from the cult of slaanesh list. i might just do that for a kinda spoof game with my brother...
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Post by Sneaky »

I don't think that Devoted translate that well (unless you give them some sort of minor spellcasting ability instead of three attacks and soporific musk).
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Post by Drasanil »

You might think this is a bit wierd but I find a cult of Tzeench would be much more plausible in the high elves case, consider this Hoeth is the high elf god of knowledge and magic, many worship him and want knowledge for knowledge's sake especialy in the white tower. But Tzeench could easily squeeze in there as he is the god of magic and slowly turn a few lore masters and sword masters to his cause with out them realising it...
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Post by Danceman »

Drasanil wrote:You might think this is a bit wierd but I find a cult of Tzeench would be much more plausible in the high elves case, consider this Hoeth is the high elf god of knowledge and magic, many worship him and want knowledge for knowledge's sake especialy in the white tower. But Tzeench could easily squeeze in there as he is the god of magic and slowly turn a few lore masters and sword masters to his cause with out them realising it...


aye, asur have a thing for intrigue too, so that would be likely... i agree :)
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