RBT Damage Calculator (summary)
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- Highborn kalisht
- Slave (off the Altar)
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- Dutch_kiwi
- Executioner
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Alright, I have one thing to say on the matter of RBT usefulness.
I don't claim that an RBT will earn its points back in every battle, but I don't think this is really what their primary function should be. RBT's should be used to take ranks off of ranked up infantry or cavalry units to aid your own units in combat. Often all it takes to remove one CR of rank bonus is one or two kills, and by your charts it looks as if an RBT will usually generate numbers such as this, which if you think about it is enough to destroy the unit by taking away critical rank and outnumber bonuses. Even if you only manage to get off two or three volleys, I think the RBT's can earn their points back in a broader sense by crippling those couple of units enough for your more combat oriented units to break them and get through the enemy's line, and then everything that an occurence such as that will entail.
But perhaps I should just shut up as I just happen to be a 12-year old with barely sufficient intellect to roll a pair of dice.
I don't claim that an RBT will earn its points back in every battle, but I don't think this is really what their primary function should be. RBT's should be used to take ranks off of ranked up infantry or cavalry units to aid your own units in combat. Often all it takes to remove one CR of rank bonus is one or two kills, and by your charts it looks as if an RBT will usually generate numbers such as this, which if you think about it is enough to destroy the unit by taking away critical rank and outnumber bonuses. Even if you only manage to get off two or three volleys, I think the RBT's can earn their points back in a broader sense by crippling those couple of units enough for your more combat oriented units to break them and get through the enemy's line, and then everything that an occurence such as that will entail.
But perhaps I should just shut up as I just happen to be a 12-year old with barely sufficient intellect to roll a pair of dice.
I obviously don't have a clue what I'm talking about, so you really should've ignored this post instead of going to all the trouble of reading it.
Very good work ZT! Nice to see it summed up in tables. One of the main traditional goal for shooting has been to remove ranks, OK? But since the DR does that just as good with their flank charges - why bother? Not to mention that the DRs have soo many more possible uses. One RBT is golden to remove enemy fast cav, which they do remarkably well. I dont think I'll ever take two, if I want heavy shooting (effective against some opponents) I'll take four, and concentrate the fire.
(I dont play tournaments (yet))
(I dont play tournaments (yet))
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- Noble
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One thing NOT included here is strategy to be used with them. For instance, if you set up your RbT's in opposite table corners, using a nice cross fire, this forces opponents to deal with them, spreading their forces.
I generally like to run at least 2 units of 10-12 RxB's within range to smack something up with 24 shots that is going to threaten the RbT. This causes 2 things to happen. 1, the opponent now has to deal with 2 RbT's pelting him, and 2, makes it harder for him to send fast war machine hitters at then RbT alone. If they send in a fast cav unit against a close range barrage of RxB, thats just foolish. So, the opponent has limited number of options. 1, send in a better armored unit to take care of it. Now ask yourself this. Was the kills the RbT generated, AND its roll in somewhat taking a decent unit out of your way for 2-3 (sometimes even 4) turns, worth this 100 points? (Also remember, if a unit is withing charge range, and you know they'll go off the table, then flee from the charge, et the unit be gone ANOTHER turn.
Then it brings along the aspect of the opponent can simply try to ignore the RbT. This is wear you can make the lil bugger shine, firing up to (in my army when i go heavy ranged) 24 shots of st4 attacks into a few units, but not just any units.. the units YOU want to shoot at.
Don't always look at statistics when you are using shooting weapons, but watch for STRATEGY with them as well.
Oh, that unit of knights seems kinda small, hmm.. if i can kill 2-3 of them i can force a panic test... hmm...
My 2 Cents
I generally like to run at least 2 units of 10-12 RxB's within range to smack something up with 24 shots that is going to threaten the RbT. This causes 2 things to happen. 1, the opponent now has to deal with 2 RbT's pelting him, and 2, makes it harder for him to send fast war machine hitters at then RbT alone. If they send in a fast cav unit against a close range barrage of RxB, thats just foolish. So, the opponent has limited number of options. 1, send in a better armored unit to take care of it. Now ask yourself this. Was the kills the RbT generated, AND its roll in somewhat taking a decent unit out of your way for 2-3 (sometimes even 4) turns, worth this 100 points? (Also remember, if a unit is withing charge range, and you know they'll go off the table, then flee from the charge, et the unit be gone ANOTHER turn.
Then it brings along the aspect of the opponent can simply try to ignore the RbT. This is wear you can make the lil bugger shine, firing up to (in my army when i go heavy ranged) 24 shots of st4 attacks into a few units, but not just any units.. the units YOU want to shoot at.
Don't always look at statistics when you are using shooting weapons, but watch for STRATEGY with them as well.
Oh, that unit of knights seems kinda small, hmm.. if i can kill 2-3 of them i can force a panic test... hmm...
My 2 Cents
Resist much, obey little.
~W.W.
~W.W.
- Shadowkiller venomblade
- Malekith's Best Friend
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I started to forget my RBTs, but after 3 games vs asur with 1-2 RBTs changed my mind.
for the 100 pt invested you get around 30 shots a game, enough to get you points back
for the 100 pt invested you get around 30 shots a game, enough to get you points back
Druchii asassins are the most silent, most accurate and above all deadly, and I am thier master.
Shadowkiller Venomblade, Urian Poisonblade`s master
Shadowkiller Venomblade, Urian Poisonblade`s master
- Tengilbefriaren
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@ TengilBefriaren
"They don't get killed as often as melee units, so no VPs for the enemy..."
Who exactly are you playing here? You have opponents that don't bring scouts, flyers, miners, ambushers, tunnellers, summoned units, fast cav, or magic??? You're honestly telling me that your opponents don't grab those 200 free VPs by turn 2??
I find it very hard to believe that anyone who's played this game for a while hasn't figured out that two stationary, 6+AS guys are well-worth killing quickly for a 100VP bonus. Even if they did do a whole lot of damage, this would be even more incentive to take them out quickly....
Man... we've been beating this dead horse for a couple of weeks now, but it just won't seem to go away.
"They don't get killed as often as melee units, so no VPs for the enemy..."
Who exactly are you playing here? You have opponents that don't bring scouts, flyers, miners, ambushers, tunnellers, summoned units, fast cav, or magic??? You're honestly telling me that your opponents don't grab those 200 free VPs by turn 2??
I find it very hard to believe that anyone who's played this game for a while hasn't figured out that two stationary, 6+AS guys are well-worth killing quickly for a 100VP bonus. Even if they did do a whole lot of damage, this would be even more incentive to take them out quickly....
Man... we've been beating this dead horse for a couple of weeks now, but it just won't seem to go away.
- Nagathi
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MTU: I'm not sure what type of armies you face, but I can tell you, in my years of experience I have learned myself the value of RBTs. Maybe it is Slaanesh's blessing over me for using his number, but whenever I shoot multiply shots I kill at least two enemy troopers, be that knights or ironbreakers.
With a fast-moving army ike the Druchii, we can easily negate enemy fast cavalry or flyers. Miners and tunnelers are nasty, but they can most often not charge on the turn they enter the field, and can therefore be decimated enough to make them near useless.
You can beat this "dead horse" as much as you want, I'm still not letting him die.
- Nag
With a fast-moving army ike the Druchii, we can easily negate enemy fast cavalry or flyers. Miners and tunnelers are nasty, but they can most often not charge on the turn they enter the field, and can therefore be decimated enough to make them near useless.
You can beat this "dead horse" as much as you want, I'm still not letting him die.
- Nag
- Drakken
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Nag, for the most part, people aren't saying there completely worthless (there are exceptions to this of course), just that they aren't the end-all kill-all everyone swears them to be. Its more of a proof postive that plunking 200-400 points down in them is a waste usually, while plunking that 100 isn't a bad investment.
And on a side note, will you ever deicde how you want to sign your name for more than a month?
And on a side note, will you ever deicde how you want to sign your name for more than a month?
We stand now on the precipice of something monumental and perhaps even capable of boggling the mind in its myriad potentials and possibilities. Try not to drool too much…
Well, compare it to a unit of 10 warriors with rxbs, wich by the way, is 10 pts more expensive.
I think you'll fin that the reaper is better against everything above t3 6+ save. Add to that the superior range, ability to fire in any direction and the fact that you can fit them in almost everywhere (while the rxb's are 10" wide).
I think you'll fin that the reaper is better against everything above t3 6+ save. Add to that the superior range, ability to fire in any direction and the fact that you can fit them in almost everywhere (while the rxb's are 10" wide).
- Kyrael
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I think Mordekai has it right.
The statistics tell you what you can expect, but they do not tell the whole truth. The value of RTBs also lie in how they help you in controlling the game and creating opportunities that may not have existed before. Clearly the game cannot be won with them alone. Controlling the opponents deployment and movement with them is as important as the kills you can get with them.
Also, something else only briefly touched on: while repeater crossbows do appear more points effective in some situations, you must also consider the longer range of the RTB and the smaller footprint it takes up on the battlefield.
The statistics tell you what you can expect, but they do not tell the whole truth. The value of RTBs also lie in how they help you in controlling the game and creating opportunities that may not have existed before. Clearly the game cannot be won with them alone. Controlling the opponents deployment and movement with them is as important as the kills you can get with them.
Also, something else only briefly touched on: while repeater crossbows do appear more points effective in some situations, you must also consider the longer range of the RTB and the smaller footprint it takes up on the battlefield.
This calculation is truly amazing, but don't forget:
A role playing game base in the rolls, not in the math. This calculation only shows the avarage chance to kill. So, if you are lucky, you can do better, if you aren't lucky, you will be worse. It's possible, to hunt down a whole unit of heavy cavalry(or win the lottery:)), but it's possible too, that you can't hurt a f*ckin' skeleton. That's why I don't like RBTs. A battle shouldn't depend on your luck.
A role playing game base in the rolls, not in the math. This calculation only shows the avarage chance to kill. So, if you are lucky, you can do better, if you aren't lucky, you will be worse. It's possible, to hunt down a whole unit of heavy cavalry(or win the lottery:)), but it's possible too, that you can't hurt a f*ckin' skeleton. That's why I don't like RBTs. A battle shouldn't depend on your luck.
- Pariah mk.231
- Noble
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My Reapers are normal used to target enemy warmachines, freeing up my shades to block marches. Together, both reapers have a preety good chance of getting rid of at least 1 warmachine a turn. I can usually wipe out an entire 5-rat jezzail team in 1 turn.
I only turn my attentions to units when its desperate, or there are no war machines left, usually picking on units that have either alot of numbers that need to be thinned before combat, or a unit of cavalry that has let me see its flank.
I ignore skirmishers with my reapers, because I know I wont kill enough of them to force a panic check, and that they'll kill me anyway, so I target something that will actually be effected by them. The only time I'll shoot skirmishers in when its a unit of pegasus knights, or anything unit of flyers with multiple wounds.
I only turn my attentions to units when its desperate, or there are no war machines left, usually picking on units that have either alot of numbers that need to be thinned before combat, or a unit of cavalry that has let me see its flank.
I ignore skirmishers with my reapers, because I know I wont kill enough of them to force a panic check, and that they'll kill me anyway, so I target something that will actually be effected by them. The only time I'll shoot skirmishers in when its a unit of pegasus knights, or anything unit of flyers with multiple wounds.
Formerly Marlus Chi Kai
In all ov da 'ole Orky race, der ar too kindz ov ladz an' only too. Der'z da one stayin' put in 'is propa place, an' da one wiv 'is foot in da uvver one'z face.
- Gurgit Trollpuncha
In all ov da 'ole Orky race, der ar too kindz ov ladz an' only too. Der'z da one stayin' put in 'is propa place, an' da one wiv 'is foot in da uvver one'z face.
- Gurgit Trollpuncha
Well done for all the hard work. I think this thread is fascinating because it links with a more general point about the value of probabilities in wargaming.
I am a maths graduate and hence fairly well versed in statistics, surely this is helpful in a game based on probabilities, however one of my most successful opponents frequently has to count on his fingers to work out things like Ld9 with a -4 modifier. The stats baffle him but through experience he has developed a "feel" for what works and what does not.
When I first started playing Druchii I worked out a set of stats like those at the top of this thread and concluded that RBTs were a waste of points yet lots of people still used them. I left them out of my army and spent the points on other things. Then I bought a big lot on ebay which included a pair of RBTs and figured I might as well give them a try. Here I must confess to a sad secret which started one boring day at work: I have a spreadsheet listing my armies and after each game I update it with the results. Amazingly my success rate with 2 RBTs was 8/9 compared to just 5/9 without. Now, obviously there's a lot of other factors in those 18 games but I for one am convinced that my RBTs are worth taking. What the probabilities don't quantify are factors such as the psychological effect on an opponent who believe it to be more effective than it is on paper.
I am a maths graduate and hence fairly well versed in statistics, surely this is helpful in a game based on probabilities, however one of my most successful opponents frequently has to count on his fingers to work out things like Ld9 with a -4 modifier. The stats baffle him but through experience he has developed a "feel" for what works and what does not.
When I first started playing Druchii I worked out a set of stats like those at the top of this thread and concluded that RBTs were a waste of points yet lots of people still used them. I left them out of my army and spent the points on other things. Then I bought a big lot on ebay which included a pair of RBTs and figured I might as well give them a try. Here I must confess to a sad secret which started one boring day at work: I have a spreadsheet listing my armies and after each game I update it with the results. Amazingly my success rate with 2 RBTs was 8/9 compared to just 5/9 without. Now, obviously there's a lot of other factors in those 18 games but I for one am convinced that my RBTs are worth taking. What the probabilities don't quantify are factors such as the psychological effect on an opponent who believe it to be more effective than it is on paper.
Sentence in recent TV guide, "Bound to appeal to teenage boys of all ages and both sexes." ?!?!
All you druchii who, like me, have a long beard in the closet, get yourselves over to:
www.freewebs.com/karakeightpeaks
All you druchii who, like me, have a long beard in the closet, get yourselves over to:
www.freewebs.com/karakeightpeaks