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Opportunistic Tactics - or 'Where did THAT come from?' 
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M-A-D
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I have looked through my rule book and it looks like you were wrong Kel. Units may stand and shoot at the other unit, as all reactions are declared at the same time and the unit reacting may pick any reaction aplicable, any way, to cut my poorly written ramble down it looks like were wrong about it.

I do agree with you about the snake. Its a good idea, but the fact you have to reform into snake the turn before makes it rather less useable, not unuseable but means its less of a oppotunistic thing. However I think using a snake formation as a shield and a diversionary thing is darned useful, and I shall almost deffiantly give that a try. Its a way of making a hell of alot of units make a failed charge...

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:05 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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As I said at the beginning, this thread is about the kind of tactics that only become viable once in a blue moon. Whilst thare have been some very good ideas poted here, which I agree with Langmann is very good to see all in one place, especially for new players, the thread was really meant to be about giving ideas of what to 'pull out of the bag' when all is looking lost.

I had no intention of listing cheesey tactics, and quite frankly they all seem fun to me as long as they are used in the right context, even Langmann's spear line!

So try and get more in keeping with my thoughts, think bacj through games played and games watched. What have you tried out of the ordinary to turn a game round when all seemed lost? What have you seen others try in a similar situation?

I was hoping to create a list of rarely seen and rarely used ideas which will only work when a lot of random factors have actually come together.

Here's another example - The fear explosion!

In my CoP list I have a unit of 7 Cold One Knights with a standard bearer and the war banner. Unit strength 14 going in to combat and not particularly that much of a guarantee for outnumbering. When I feel I need to ensure the outnumber as I am going for autobreak I boost their unit strength. My Annointed joins them on his barded steed - us 16 and my Noble on his steed of slaanesh - us now 20 and finally my Sorceress general on her steed of slaanesh - us now 24!

She is safe as she cannot fit in the front rank due to their only being 4 models wide - standard bearer + Annointed + Noble. She goes into the middle of the next rank to save her from any flank hits assuming they get bogged down. She cannot cast but my Annointed still can.

Get the idea now......?


Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:18 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Ras well agree to differ over the interpretation of that then. :)

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:13 pm
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The snaking fast cavalry IMO is one of the most opportunistic tactics available. Unless a random set of factors are emerging then there are very few reasons to use this formation otherwise.

But when they do come together this can be very devastating. Think about an advancing cavalry unit, snake into the side of it as you advance your infantry blocks towards the side of your snake. His units are on the other side. We assume the snake combat holds. He charges into your snake with his units in his turn expecting to overun into your infantry. But you have set up in a castle formation so his counter charge is in turn counter charged, not only in the front but also in the side as your snaking has prevented him from manouvreing into a better position.

Opportunistic and effective but relies on many things to come together.


Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:22 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Well, it's unfortunate that the Hydra thing can't be done. I guess reading the army book does help sometimes :oops:

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:45 pm
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M-A-D
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Kel, I really wish you were right. I have read it over and over trying to coroborate your thoughts, because IMHO not only are they great but the way it should be done (and would work if there was some sort of shoot the closest target thing) but I just can't find the wording to support it. Order of charge is only mentioned when declaring a charge not in the charge reaction section. Which is a shame IMHO, because I think it should be the rule, however if I play people, including yourself who like it/believe in it then I am more then happy to go along with it, as it rocks. :D

DA: You're right, the snake thing has potentially very sexy outcomes. Just sooo hard to get it used. :cry:

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:23 pm
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Highborn
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What about the Wiggly Worm tactic? Like the snake, but slightly different.

Same principle, charge the flank. However, the idea is to charge from as close to the "divider" between a flank charge and a frontal charge as possible. If you're positioned correctly, your unit will not stick out of the unit like a sore thumb, instead it'll be curved around.

XXXX
XXXX-|
XXXX |
|
|

The Xs are an enemy regiment, and the dashes are the Dark Riders. It leaves your unit with much less of an exposed flank, and it irritates the enemy greatly because if he was not trapped in combat with your Dark Riders, he'd be able to charge them :P. This tactic also leaves room for a Hydra to charge around the DR, and provides cover (from one side) to a regiment charging the front of the enemy.

There's also the Dark Rider Shield. Flank a regiment of troops (footsoldiers work best, especially witch elves, because they're immune to panic while frenzied) with a unit of Dark Riders in a line formation. Make it so that any possible threats to the regiment can actually see the regiment, but only the very front model, so that the enemy CAN declare a charge on the regiment if they want to, though they'll only be able to get 1 or 2 models into BtB contact. They'll most likely charge the Dark Riders though, and then your Dark Riders flee around the regiment. The enemy can't pursue, because he can't "break formation" like fleeing troops can to move around a regiment, and he can't redirect into your regiment, because the regiment had already been visible to him to charge. so, he's got a unit stuck 1" away from your regiment, and in a nice position to be flank charged.
If the enemy instead decides to go for the regiment, your Dark Riders are there, ready to flank the enemy.

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So, you're saying that dwarf ironbreakers in HTH combat are heavy cavalry?
You're wierd...


Last edited by Cerulaetas on Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:25 am
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Adept of Khaine
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Wow DA, the fear explosion idea is brilliant. Not too many units have US24... esp. not after the combat has been worked out! Now where did I put those knights...

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Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:12 pm
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Chariots shield

Chariots can still used for taking charge , use a small unit infront of enemy and let it overrun to chariots , next round , use your other unit to flank them
Chariots have great T and save , enemy can only get a few wound on them
(even they are chaos knight)

Example :

.........CHAOS Knight.........

...........RRR..............

......... CC ......
WWW CC EEEEE
WWW CC EEEEE


C =chariots , put it 1" infront of warriors and EXE
W= warriors , closer to chariot ...have few base to base means u get lesser hit
E= EXE , use the angle so that u can flank charge
R=RXB warriors , or any thing they may want to charge

if warriors used to take charge , it may cause some serious damage
ya , u lose the impact hit from chariots but use other hard hitter to support it


Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:47 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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A couple of variations on DA's Suicide Bomber I've used are the following:

Get a Noble (or other melee specific character) to about 13"/14" of the Shadow Sorceress and give him a little look when you announce you're going to cast SoS. Your opponent (at least once ;)) will generally let you cast it, convinced your plan will fail :twisted:

Give the Shadow Sorceress the Cloak of Dark Souls as well as the Web of Shadows. Your opponent will either 'work out' your plan and will trying to counter it early (disrupting his first movement phase) or will ignore it and give you the chance of pulling off something sneaky very early.

Amarel.


Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:42 am
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The Ancient One
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With our "beloved" Suicide Bomber there is an aspect that I haven't seen mentioned yet which I used the other night.

In a game against mortal chaos I had my bomber all ready and no real targets to go for (the mages having already been charged by my MDs) and then I saw the perfect target - a unit of 5 furies! Now I'd been worried about these guys flying around my rear and causing trouble so I charged Percy the Chariot Slayer (aka Percival the Pink) [It's a long and funny story and I may fill you in on it one day, just not here] into them. He killed 4 of the 5 in the first round and managed to hang in for another round of combat. OK so he died but it removed one of the threats that I was concerned with.

And my point? Just because we think of the bomber as a mage/war machine/ character killer - don't forget the other possible targets.

Cheers

Sha'a'alaar


Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:56 pm
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Highborn
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Sha'a'alaar, I'm confused. Are you talking about the Suicide Bomber where you give your person the Web of Shadows? If that's the case, then you can only target one enemy, not a whole enemy unit.

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Ashnari Doomsong wrote:
So, you're saying that dwarf ironbreakers in HTH combat are heavy cavalry?
You're wierd...


Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:52 pm
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The Ancient One
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Cerulaetas, yes you target one model but treat the excess casualties as normal (and there are excess casualties). Or am I missing something really obvious here and being stoopid?

cheers

Sha'a'alaar


Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:50 pm
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Loremaster
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Dark Elf Army Book, page 18 wrote:
A Web of Shadows can only be used once per game against a single enemy model. (...) When used, one model in base to base contact automatically takes 2D6 S3 hits.

So only one model can suffer hits.


Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:56 pm
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The Ancient One
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Lethalis wrote:
Dark Elf Army Book, page 18 wrote:
A Web of Shadows can only be used once per game against a single enemy model. (...) When used, one model in base to base contact automatically takes 2D6 S3 hits.

So only one model can suffer hits.

I went back to the book before my last post too, and the BRB. Here is my reasoning:

If my anointed with a GW hits the model in base contact with all 5 attacks and does three wounds, assuming single wound opponents, then 3 figures are removed through excess casualties not one. Logically, this would be the same for the web.

Sha'a'alaar


Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:56 pm
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Undercover Asrai
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Sha, you are wrong.

There are no exess wounds on attacks that strike one model. That's like you were declaring 5 attacks on a unit champ, he suffered 3 wounds and you claiming 2 additional casualties.

Excess wounds, unless in challenge, are lost.

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Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:07 pm
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The Ancient One
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Hmmmm, I not declaring attacks on a model.

But I do see how and why you guys feel that it would be only on one figure.

However, I'm not convinced. I guess I "see" the web as literally that, something that shoots out and smothers its target, but in a big unit it can "catch" more than one model. On the other hand, your view, I would guess, is that it wraps around that model and only wounds them.

cheers


Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:38 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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sha'a'alaar wrote:
However, I'm not convinced. I guess I "see" the web as literally that, something that shoots out and smothers its target, but in a big unit it can "catch" more than one model. On the other hand, your view, I would guess, is that it wraps around that model and only wounds them.


Fluff plays no part here, the rules are quite clear. The web only affects one model and the wounds do not carry over, there is no room for debate. You wouldn't succeed in pulling that off in a tournament against anyone who knows what they're doing. Judge ruling would be against you, always.

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Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:04 pm
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Sorry sha'a'alaar, but it seems you are wrong :) You can really only kill one model with the Web.

But isn't it then agreat thing in challenges? Opponent's champ challenge your Sorc and your Sorc kills the champ with, let's say 5 wounds. That would mean +4 to CR, wouldn't it?

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Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:06 pm
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The Ancient One
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Damn.

I used it like that last week for the first time! It would have been sweet. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

Sha'a'alaar


Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:16 pm
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Rudolph's Heir
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I have a good idea IMHO.

The flying Sorceress:
Have two sorceresses, use the shadow lore on both. Both give them the steed of shadows.
Have one scout put it within 20 of the other one. Now fly 40 Inches! Yahoo that has devasting affect on heaven magic users still in the nearage of the army in the begginning! Charge them and have the Web of Shadows or any other Mage killing item!

The flying Assassin:
The same works with the assassin only the range is even bigger because the flying model can be within 12 inches. That`s 54 Inches! He can kill any heavens mage!


Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:24 pm
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Highborn
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robin wrote:
OK, topic got's my mind rolling. So here's another one, a variation of other mentioned surpirse tactics.

Brave hero: Noble on dark steed in a unit of dark riders. Position them to charge a warmachine. Declare a charge with only the noble and position the dark riders to treathen the flank or rear of another unit.


This doesn't work. If a unit with a character in it must move as one unit, unless a character specifically moves out of the unit in his movement phase. Charging comes before actual movement, so the character, and the dark riders with him, must all charge at the same target.

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Ashnari Doomsong wrote:
So, you're saying that dwarf ironbreakers in HTH combat are heavy cavalry?
You're wierd...


Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:11 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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No, the character can charge out of the unit methinks. But after the character charges out, I'm not sure if the unit can move about.

....Lindaaaa!

TDP

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Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:43 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Cerulaetas: A character can charge out of a unit. If he does so, the unit may not declare a charge - but may move normally this turn. So the Brave Hero is a perfectly legal OT ( oportunistic tactic :))


Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:45 am
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hey this is great im kinda new, so this forum is just what i needed to see!!! if i can recomend this as a STICKY i would this is an awesome tatic forum.

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