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ToK List Q&A 
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Master of the Red Legion
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Also feel free to tell us what you think of the list here in this thread. In fact, anything about the ToK list can be put here, including battle reports you're fond of or whatever. ;)

That being said, this first space is reserved for questions and answers and will be continually updated. Any small correction to be made will make their way to the web list eventually. ;)

1- Is the Potion of Strength "ONE USE ONLY" ?

Yes.

2- Can with elf characters join the Sanguine Bride of Khaine or only the Assassin?

Only assassin can join that unit.

3- A noble can only coat a handweapon. Does this also means an additional handweapon as all the other characters can?

Yes, poison is applied to the additional hand weapon as well.

4- Does the -1 to hit due to the Dance of Mist apply for both HtH and shooting?

The ability applies only to close combat.

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Last edited by Vorchild on Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:09 pm
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Q: Which units count as Witch Elves for the bonuses from Red Fury? I assume Hags, Priestesses, and Sanguine Brides, but I wanted to be absolutly sure.
Q: Temple Scourge says "Only per Hag". Does that mean only one per Hag or only Hags can carry them?

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Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:47 pm
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Maldor:

1. Witch Elves, Sanguine Brides, Hag Queens, and Priestesses of Khaine gain the Ward Save from the COB [including its crew]. The rest of the units only gain the reroll to wound in the first round of combat.

2. It should say "Only one per hag character." Unit champs cannot take them, only Priestesses and Queens, and only 1 each at most.

Z

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Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:51 pm
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It was my job to look for typos in the list wasn't it? Oops... :oops:

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Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:32 pm
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Looks like good list in general. Suffer a bit in the same way as when our new items have been added by GW though. They somewhat replace the current which is in the end means the same amount of items being used.
Here are some more specifik comments.

1. What is wrong with this? The skill 'Path of the Snake' can only be taken by assassins, but the assassin may not scout or take enchanted items.

2. A noble can only coat a handweapon. Does this also means an additional handweapon as all the other characters can?

3. Purple Orchid is having the right price if a hag characters takes it, but it can be discussed if an assassin buy that poison. If a noble use takes it then it is real bargain. 20 points for +1S and poision. What is the reasoning behind this?

4. My regular opponents would probably be ok with me using the list, but I doubt they will say yes the next time after meeting an assassin with 5A, reroll to hit and killing blow (then we have the cauldron). I know that the assassin has been overpriced, but isn't this too much.

5. Always nice with new poisons and skills, but will anyone really use the two more expensive poisons as they suffer from the same thing as all the other seldom used weapons/poisons. They don't help you pass the armour.

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Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:29 pm
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1. The assassin CAN scout, as per the Revision. With Path of the Snake, he can hide closer. You do not need to buy him the Cloak of Dark Souls to make him a scout, he already is.

2. Yes, if the Noble coats one hand weapon, his additional hand weapon gets coated as well.

3. The discount of being a Temple Follower. Besides, the Noble has to purchase the second hand weapon, so there is a little expense on his part. And the fact that he is giving up a powerful magic weapon really balances it out.

4. Well, how many places can the assassin be? And he is still quite expensive, the combo you suggested is 184 points. A killer character for 10% of the armies cost... I think that is a fair trade...

5. Both of those poisons are meant to go against Lightly armored troops, but we do have Precision Strike to help against the armor [making it a -2] with a S4 character. Besides, imagine how well they would do against light infantry/fast cav... until you see Wyrmrose blow apart the first 2 ranks of a High Elf Spearmen unit, you have not seen it in action.

Most of the questions were opinions, but no problem. I hope you enjoy the list!

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Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:52 pm
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Da'Ghault wrote:
4. My regular opponents would probably be ok with me using the list, but I doubt they will say yes the next time after meeting an assassin with 5A, reroll to hit and killing blow (then we have the cauldron). I know that the assassin has been overpriced, but isn't this too much.


You lose quite a bit in the list, actually ... and the majority of your troops are frenzied, which can be taken advantage of ...

Try it a few times and see what happens - we look forward to your battle reports with the list.

J


Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:12 am
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AloneAndBurned wrote:
1. The assassin CAN scout, as per the Revision. With Path of the Snake, he can hide closer. You do not need to buy him the Cloak of Dark Souls to make him a scout, he already is.



Ok, but you should really add that into the list. As all the other special abilities are listed (and killing blow added) and he cost about the same as before it is very easy to assume that killing blow is replacing scouting.

Having the same ability as 'Scimitar of Scultar' from the beastmen book instead of killling blow would have been more interesting (with possibility to upgrade to killing blow). It would have enhanced a lot of the weaker choices in the DE list like Black Lotus, Chillblade and Dark Sword. On the other hand this is somewhat fixed by the precision strike as pointed out.

Hmmm....It seems that the witchbrew have been left out of the ToK skill artifact list, but I assume that it should be there.

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Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:41 am
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Right... VORCHILD!

Z

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Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:35 pm
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OK, now the assassin rule is my fault, largely as a result that I don't have a copy of the revision stuff. I'll have to go looking for the wording they have for it mind you, unless someone wants to shoot it my way. All typos and ommissions with regards to the poisons and skills section are completely not my fault here. ;) Lets all now take a hard look at Z who fashioned that section and told me to blindly copy the thing. ;)

If there is an ommission of something that was there before, assume that it is not an ommission. We didn't remove anything except for units really.

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Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:51 pm
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Can the dread Knight only take poisons or can he also take artifacts and skill from the temple of Khaine, and what about magic items. Can you also include Mengils manflayers in the army.

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Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:11 pm
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Does the -1 to hit due to the Dance of Mist apply for both HtH and shooting ?

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Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:17 pm
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Only hand to hand


Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:09 pm
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Dread Knight can only take poisons. It specifically says the DK can take up to 25 pts of poisons from the ToK. That means only posions.

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Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:05 pm
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One more question....

Is there a reason Sanguine Brides don't have a command option, or was that just an oversight?

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Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:22 pm
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Maldor wrote:
One more question....

Is there a reason Sanguine Brides don't have a command option, or was that just an oversight?


There's a good reason - they don't need one. :twisted: That, and its a fluff reason really, but honestly, they are extremely powerful.

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Also

This isnt a Q or an A, but I have developed a AB file for the TOK list, and there is only one more problem that needs to be sorted out before I unleash it for public use. So if you plan on using the ToK list, email me at warren.tegg@gmail.com with the email title 'TOK' and I will send it to you when I get it finished.

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Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:34 am
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This ToK army list sounds fantastic ! Can't wait to play it (just need to paint some more of those pesky lil killer ladies :twisted: ... only two units won't do :twisted: ) ! I'm especially happy with the Witch elf lord and hero that existed in the previous GW DE army book and disappeared with the new one. Always thought that was the stupidest thing of the new army book.

However, I have a few questions about the rules :

- Why do the Sanguine Brides not have the option of a command ? :shock: If they are such elite witch elves, they should definetly have a command with the possibility of a magic standard. Ok, they are powerful enough, even without the command, but since this unit compensates the loss of many great DE units such as Dark Riders, Black Guard or Corsairs, giving them a command is not such a problem... is it ?

- Why not make Hellebron (with the non-official profile given by GW) and Shadowblade, the only two characters available for the ToK as Morathi is for the CoS ?

- Is the unit of Mengil Manhide's manflayers an option for a ToK ? Of course, cultists of Khaine tend to be quite hateful even towards other DEs but Mengil being such a cruel and ruthless character, he seems to be perfect for a cult of murder. And besides, he would fight for anyone, provided that he can get to eat... hum... "stuff" :twisted: !

- Is the Xbow still an option for the DE warriors ? Just want to make sure, because I personally like this (Khaine does not like shooting but an elvish army without shooting at all is still a bit hard to imagine)

- About Khaine's protection : Since the Sanguine Brides have "Khaine's Protection", I assume the rule for it is "This character OR UNIT generates 1 Dispel Die during the opponents magic phase and has unlimited range to the Cauldron of Blood" instead of simply "This character generates...".

- I assume Witch Elves are considered Devotees of Khaine... (I don't have the english version of the Army book, so I dunno if it's written in it .)

- My last question is more a discussion considering that this army list might be declared official one day by GW : When you think in terms of greater armies, the 0-1 limitation to Cold One knights seems a bit unfair, and I will explain why. First of all, they are already a rare choice which does not allow anyone to take too many of them if they want to have a CoB (and they have to in this army list). But even being a rare choice, I agree that you have to represent the fact that they are not from the ToK but are just here to give more hitting power. So I 'd rather suggest a "double rarity" rule : there should be an additional 0-1 limit per full share of 2000 pts so that they are 0-2 at 4000 pts, 0-3 at 6000 pts etc. Otherwise your army is going to lack some hard hitting power seriously. Playing a 4000 pts elvish army is a bit rough when you don't have enough fast moving units, especially if you are fighting against an army that has mostly cavalry (CoS or worse, HEs). I know CoC are still an option, but they cannot make up for the absence of real cavalry against an opposing cavalry army.
I just think it might be interesting to discuss this matter (although I am not from the 7th convent). :?

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Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:11 am
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Lord Aldarith wrote:
This ToK army list sounds fantastic ! Can't wait to play it (just need to paint some more of those pesky lil killer ladies :twisted: ... only two units won't do :twisted: ) ! I'm especially happy with the Witch elf lord and hero that existed in the previous GW DE army book and disappeared with the new one. Always thought that was the stupidest thing of the new army book.

Hey thanks! Its always nice to see work appreciated. ;)

However, I have a few questions about the rules :

- Why do the Sanguine Brides not have the option of a command ? :shock: If they are such elite witch elves, they should definetly have a command with the possibility of a magic standard. Ok, they are powerful enough, even without the command, but since this unit compensates the loss of many great DE units such as Dark Riders, Black Guard or Corsairs, giving them a command is not such a problem... is it ?

There are fluff reasons. Z can explain them much better I think. In all honesty, try them out an you'll see they really don't even need it! :twisted: But its all about the fluff. ;) Maybe, once the campagin is done, you will find a more complete compendium that will include all those sorts of things, as well as modelling advice and such...

- Why not make Hellebron (with the non-official profile given by GW) and Shadowblade, the only two characters available for the ToK as Morathi is for the CoS ?

You mean special characters? Its possible we could do that.

- Is the unit of Mengil Manhide's manflayers an option for a ToK ? Of course, cultists of Khaine tend to be quite hateful even towards other DEs but Mengil being such a cruel and ruthless character, he seems to be perfect for a cult of murder. And besides, he would fight for anyone, provided that he can get to eat... hum... "stuff" :twisted: !

No, there are no DoW or RoR allowed with this list sadly. This army is only for the pious! :twisted: That, and it would take more time to playtest that sort of thing. :roll:

- Is the Xbow still an option for the DE warriors ? Just want to make sure, because I personally like this (Khaine does not like shooting but an elvish army without shooting at all is still a bit hard to imagine)

Yes, they are just like the army book, which also means they are just as cheap. We allowed the shooting if only to give the witches some slight relief from fast cav and stuff. Its not actually that much shooting anyways, and small units of RXBmen make great bait!

- About Khaine's protection : Since the Sanguine Brides have "Khaine's Protection", I assume the rule for it is "This character OR UNIT generates 1 Dispel Die during the opponents magic phase and has unlimited range to the Cauldron of Blood" instead of simply "This character generates...".

Yes, the special rule allows them to generate a dispel die.

- I assume Witch Elves are considered Devotees of Khaine... (I don't have the english version of the Army book, so I dunno if it's written in it .)

That is correct.

- My last question is more a discussion considering that this army list might be declared official one day by GW

Its always possible. ;)

I just think it might be interesting to discuss this matter (although I am not from the 7th convent). :?

To be perfectly fair, this list was developed by a special team brought together from all of the initatives and some other areas. So it wasn't just the T7C people who brought this to light, but the Dnet community in general! :mrgreen:

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Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:17 am
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The Sanguine Brides are Witch Elves who have been deemed worthy of becoming Priestesses of Khaine. The only thing keeping them from attaining such authority is a true test of grit and might in battle. So, accordingly, they are all given a ritual shower in the Cauldron, then giving ceremonial blades that are poisoned with Purple Orchid, and are then sent off into battle.

The reason they have no command is that the Sanguine Brides are all fighting for a few number of positions, and would not bear ANY of them having an advantage, such as being a unit leader or standard bearer. They would kill the person in charge, thus causing a lot of ruckus. Thus, in their eternal wisdom, the Queens of the TOK made sure they were all on the same level. Besides, the few who survive should be able to take up the mantle of the Priestess.

That is also the reason they cannot be joined by Witch characters. Why wouldn't these girls stab the Queen or Priestess to open up more spots for them? I mean, they can all just say the Queen died during the battle :twisted:

I hope that is enough information about the Brides...

Z

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Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:15 am
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forgot to say that the TOK list looks pretty good :D
and the Sanguine Brides are impressive, they're true Khaine followers

i have a question about the Wyrmrose poison :
Are the hits randomized in the unit as per shooting ?
For example, could they hit a character in a unit counting less than 5 figurines ?

What happen if you kill a character on monstrous mount :
* if the character isn't on a unit ?
Does the hits goes to the mount, or are aimed at the model who killed it ?

* if the character killed has joined a unit ?
Where do the hits go ? The unit, the mount, randomized ?
same question if it's one of the regular soldiers who is killed.

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Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:02 pm
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Question about the Cauldron of Blood:

The list states that there may only be as many units of Sanguine Brides of Khaine as there are Cauldrons of Blood, though it also states that the Cauldron of Blood is as per army book, with the exception of the "Eyes of Khaine" special rule. Nowhere does it say that the Cauldron of Blood is no longer 0-1, so my question is whether it is actually 0-1 or not?

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Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:04 am
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The COB is not 0-1. It is a Rare Choice. The Brides can be bought for each COB in the army [so, in bigger games, more COBs & Brides].

As for Wyrmrose, it counts as randomized from shooting. So yes, a character in a unit with less than 5 models could be potentially hurt by a model slain with Wyrmrose.

A Character and his mount DO NOT count as a unit. If Wyrmrose kill either of those, the attacks cannot go against the mount/rider.

However, this brings up a point that was not discussed. What if the model with Wyrmrose was in a unit? Could they be singled out by these attacks? Yes. This means, the character with Wyrmrose is playing with a double edged sword. The benefits should outweigh the problem here.

If the character on monster mount has joined a unit, his own unit is hit, since he is a part of that unit. If a regular Trooper is hit by it, he hits his own unit and not the character.

Z

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Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:21 am
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1) Does the Assassin's killing blow still apply even if he uses a magic weapon?

2) Is Crimson Death and Precision Strike a legal combo for an assassin/hag character? As for 45 points it seems fairly inexpensive for a hand-held jezzail which is a lot more accurate (not to mention that Hag Queen + This combo + Rune of Khaine + Mortal Fury will result in a very strong offensive character).

3) Why the decision to still allow the noble access to the enchanted magic items, as the rest of the list cannot? Was it to still allow the scouting noble combo (which becomes a whole lot deadlier with Purple Orchaid poison and 2HW).

4) Same question as above except concerning Dark Riders, surely if you could concieve of a varient of shades they could've been worked in? Were they excluded because this would either make the list too flexible/fast or they were replaced by the now more numerous harpies?

EDIT: Sorry that i forgot to add this before, great job in making such an interesting list :D.

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Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:07 am
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Kalbron wrote:
1) Does the Assassin's killing blow still apply even if he uses a magic weapon?

Yes.

2) Is Crimson Death and Precision Strike a legal combo for an assassin/hag character? As for 45 points it seems fairly inexpensive for a hand-held jezzail which is a lot more accurate (not to mention that Hag Queen + This combo + Rune of Khaine + Mortal Fury will result in a very strong offensive character).

Yes. The characters are supposed to be strong, though very vulnerable.

3) Why the decision to still allow the noble access to the enchanted magic items, as the rest of the list cannot? Was it to still allow the scouting noble combo (which becomes a whole lot deadlier with Purple Orchaid poison and 2HW).

Not quite a rules question is it? ;) To be honest, its easier to use exiting templates, and I for one don't really like messing with stuff that has already been developed. The assassin is the exception but we tested that configuration extensively for the Revision effort.

4) Same question as above except concerning Dark Riders, surely if you could concieve of a varient of shades they could've been worked in? Were they excluded because this would either make the list too flexible/fast or they were replaced by the now more numerous harpies?

We had decided to limit cavalry, so something had to go. COK got severely downplayed (since they can only get character support from the noble and are 0-1 rare, and we don't consider chariots to be cavalry. To put in cavalry makes it almost too easy for the ToK list. In their place, we put more harpies and Temple Zealots. No easy ride with being able to use DR. ;) The players will be forced to either neglect those roles, or in the typical DE style be forced to meld the strengths of a couple units in order fulfill those critical roles in the army.

EDIT: Sorry that i forgot to add this before, great job in making such an interesting list :D.

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