Operation Infighting

Post by **General kala** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:52 pm

I just had an idea for those of you who have battles fighting against the Asur in the campaign. Could be brilliant, could be worthless. I call it Operation Infighting.

Here's the concept - We Druchii always know who is in charge. We live in mortal fear of them. There are no ambiguities of command for us. The High Elves, however, are so wrapped up in intrigue and political infighting that they even have a special rule for it. It goes beyond the level of mere fluff.

So, what we do is kill the characters. Go on a coordinated binge of assassinations. If we are successful, then the Asur field commands will fall into disarray. With the field generals and lieutenants dead, every sub-commander and unit champion will bicker over control of their regiment. Rifts and political discord will develop. They are left with only the top echelons of power with no reliable chain of command beneath them. Management of the day-to-day actions and logistics of the troops will become difficult, if not impossible. Mayhem accomplished.

The Asur can't really turn the tables on us because we don't have the same problems with an ever-changing chain of command. They kill a Druchii character and another just steps in to take his place like a standard bearer in formation. No big deal.

Essentially, we report our victories or losses as usual. Then we also report the number of High Elf characters killed. If enough people kill off commanders, maybe it can tip the scales in our favor or offset a bad loss.

Plus, haven't you just always wanted to play a game for the sole purpose of putting the smackdown on those poofy elf princes? They're just begging for a kamikaze run.

The campaign managers can tell me if I'm out of bounds here, but I think it would be a clever little bit of very in-character Druchii viciousness. Exploit weakness wherever you find it.

Scion of naggaroth · Post by **Scion of naggaroth** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:03 pm

Personally I'm all for it. As the characters are also normally quite expensive it could also mqake the difference between winning and losing.

The only problem I can see is that the characters have access to a number of rather cheap protective items that can make them very difficult to kill kamikaze style. A better way to kill them is to run down their guard unit.

To the confusion of the Asur...

Ragnarok · Post by **Ragnarok** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:13 pm

I think you are right but you cant forget that when it comes down to it no Asur will exchange the future of his/here race for a bit of glory and a slight advancement in rank and social standing. So I would suggest that we hunt down every singel model with a rank, champions etc.

Post by **General kala** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:57 pm

scion of naggaroth wrote:The only problem I can see is that the characters have access to a number of rather cheap protective items that can make them very difficult to kill kamikaze style.

Yeah, I've been on the nasty side of the Asur magical arsenal. Fortunately, I have had some success with clever assassination plots as of late. It's part of the reason that I came up with this idea.

Ragnarok wrote:I think you are right but you cant forget that when it comes down to it no Asur will exchange the future of his/here race for a bit of glory and a slight advancement in rank and social standing.

But that's the beauty of it. Yes, when the battle is joined they play rock-paper-scissors and someone leads the fight. But when they are NOT engaged they will be nattering like teenage girls. Think about the defining racial psychological trait. Ours is cruelty. Theirs is arrogance (or pride if you want to sugarcoat it). They won't argue over who is going to take the flank, but they will argue over who is reading the map correctly, who has the best plan, who's turn it is to do the dishes, etc. The goal is to sow confusion even when they aren't fighting us.

Ragnarok wrote:I would suggest that we hunt down every singel model with a rank, champions etc.

Ah, but again there is subtlety to my method. If you kill the four commanding officers of ten units, each with a unit champion, then there are now ten Asur who are planning on how they can be the next officer. After ten battles you have a hundred people fighting over forty posts. After a hundred battles... you get the idea.

Lother · Post by **Lother** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:26 pm

Hey Kala!, I've got another proposal: high elf victories should count as 1, and dark elf victories can count as 3, or other number you wish, perhaps 10?
Yes, that would be great!

Ok, seriously, when you propose an idea you should think about it is fair or not, because the high elves now are fighting against the odds, just when they were starting to win, they were given a second battle location which drained them, most of the battles played in this campaign are posted in the wrath gate, with really few on other battle location, also half or more of the topics of the flesh&blood forum are about fighting asur, and not about your civil war, the asur.org are a 1.000 strong community while you are 7.000 players, and now you are even talking about an idea which gives the druchii the upper hand with equal number of victories, just for being druchii.

I know you really want to win the campaign, but you should think about if it is fair to the other players, not just trying to win no matter the costs.

Ah, and intrigue at court is the most stupid rule ever, and more even for high elves, as the best suited for it are dark elves, who would prefer to get power through backstabbing opponents even it that means their army gets massacred. High elves are supposed to be intelligent and wise, who put the interests of their people above their own, and have more common sense than pride; but of course some @#~¬€# had a stupid idea and so they made a even more stupid fluff for it to look right, but even after that anything "intrigue at court"related looks rather strange when reading the high elf fluff, as if it was badly sticked to the main fluff.

So, my vote for this idea is NO, as it's not fair unless you are a druchii eager for victory no matter the costs.

Fireblade · Post by **Fireblade** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:11 pm

I know something better, If the high elfs kill enough witch elfs, the khainites will be outnumbered by the slaaneshi and The druchii players will only be allowed to use the CoP list.

No, really, this rule is completly unfair for the asur. Our characters aren't the strongest characters you can have in close combat. And if you get a reward for killing them.

Just Forget the rule, i don't think any asur player wants this rule, except when the druchii get a same terrible rule.

Fireblade

Post by **General kala** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:21 pm

Geez, Lother this is a storyline-oriented tactic. I am trying to sow discord while we are not engaged in battle.

Plus you keep going on about the 7000 plus forum but most are now concentrating on the Cult vs. Temple fight. I am PMing all the people who write in my journal. I have two people (2) who are actually reporting battles with me at Wrath Gate and one of those just went off to become the leader of the Khaine faction. The rest are just having fun writing fluff. This "grand conspiracy against the Asur" of yours is an illusion. Hello. We are still losing the 6th Gate badly and bately holding Wrath Gate.

Also, do yo have some info that I don't? You know how many battles are being posted at which site? And the "half the posts in the flesh and blood forum" are saying "The asur are kicking our butts! Do something."

And frankly, I was ready for my character to die before the new tunnel idea got thrown in. Haven't you read anything that I've written? I don't care if I win or lose as long as the story is cool.

The campaign managers can completely ignore this. I just thought it was entertaining and in character for the storyline

Lother, you overreact to everything I do. I humbled myself on Asur.org because you pitched a fit. Now, when we are specifically asked to put on the strategy hat, you pitch one again. Please chill out. I'm exhausted from trying to meet your expectations.

Post by **General kala** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:26 pm

Oh god, not you too fireblade.

It's not a rule, it's a tactic. I don't write the rules, I am just trying to come up with a strategy other than "desperation defense".

Fireblade · Post by **Fireblade** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:34 pm

Sorry Kala, I think it is a quite fluffy idea, but don't give any battle bonuses for it. As for a tactic, killing the high elf character with pure of heart almost garantuees a victory in a smaller battle.

It is probably true that the high elfs will be like headless chickens if you kill their most important leaders

i am sorry, i thought you were planning to create a rule to give a huge advantage to the druchii. As a tactic, there is nothing wrong with this.

Fireblade

Lother · Post by **Lother** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:28 pm

If that's storyline-oriented it's as easy as making a forum "post here the high elven leaders you've killed", but your idea seemed to me like giving the admins of the campaign something to change the results at the battle locations up or down (in fact only up). Sorry for the misunderstanding, but your idea was reeealy easy to misunderstand.

Plus you keep going on about the 7000 plus forum but most are now concentrating on the Cult vs. Temple fight. I am PMing all the people who write in my journal. I have two people (2) who are actually reporting battles with me at Wrath Gate and one of those just went off to become the leader of the Khaine faction. The rest are just having fun writing fluff. This "grand conspiracy against the Asur" of yours is an illusion.

The fact is not how many of the ones who write there are playing games and posting results there, but how much people attract from the main focus of the campaign, which is Khaine vs Slaanesh.
I'm not saying that's a conspiracy, I just say it's strange, and if your idea would have any impact on the results it would be, as I said "fighting against the odds". I didn't say it was a conspiracy, that's all yours.

Lother, you overreact to everything I do. I humbled myself on Asur.org because you pitched a fit. Now, when we are specifically asked to put on the strategy hat, you pitch one again. Please chill out. I'm exhausted from trying to meet your expectations.

No one asked you to explain anything, I just said you were blaming in an awful way an entire community that was not guilty in any way, I don't think I over reacted in any way, and now I've said that your idea, if it had any kind of relevance would be really unfair.
Perhaps now I overreacted if, as you said, you were just talking about fluff and nothing else, but if you re-read this:

Essentially, we report our victories or losses as usual. Then we also report the number of High Elf characters killed. If enough people kill off commanders, maybe it can tip the scales in our favor or offset a bad loss.

Then you could think twice if you could be easely misunderstood or not.

Ah, and

Here's the concept - We Druchii always know who is in charge. We live in mortal fear of them. There are no ambiguities of command for us. The High Elves, however, are so wrapped up in intrigue and political infighting that they even have a special rule for it. It goes beyond the level of mere fluff.

this is not correct, as dark elves love above all backstabbing, perhaps they have fear for their masters, but also hatred, and before a battle or even before leaving their cities for war it wouldn't be that strange if one of your officers kills secretly his/her master so can take his/her troops.
The rule for high elves as I said is stupid and doesn't seem high elvish at all.

Perhaps your rule could apply to combat results (I mean, not just fluff) if both sides have the option of hunting the other side leaders and generals, as I'm sure you would also miss your best strategists (don't you miss kouran?

). Of course, the loss of characters would have the same relevance for both sides, as for high elves the loss would be bad (although that would let the other leaders who were trying to take control of the army the chance to get it at last, not falling into disarray), but for dark elves won't be less dangerous.
But this is nearly impossible to implement that in the campaign, as it's very difficult to check if the people are saying the truth, and because validation would be needed from the other player, making the instructions for playing the campaign too complex.

Nagathi · Post by **Nagathi** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:37 pm

If you say that the Asur are fighting "against the odds" then maybe you should look at the map. Asur have two places to log their battles, Druchii have eight, and some of them are Druchii vs. Druchii. Asur can easily win on their two sites, while the entire Druchii population is spread out over several battlesites. If the asur are fighting against the odds, call me Wonky and send me to the north pole.

- Nag

Voodoomaster · Post by **Voodoomaster** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:54 pm

Jese, Kala way to go and bite my head off.

Fluff wise i didn't know that i would become leader of team khaine when i promised you i would come south myself. to aid you, you still have my sister and perhaps someone even more powerful will appear sometime soon. :twisted:

i agree with you Kala without their leaders the Asur will be unable to corrdinate their attacks effectively, go for it play as many assassination scenarios as possible i have already lined up 3 for 2morrow alone aginst an old friend who is getting fed up of losing against me.

Fluff wise as Lord General of Khaine you have my blessing and i shall send you 2 score of assassins from Har Ganeth, as they are more trust worthy than the ones of Ghrond.

Voodoomaster, Leader of Team Khaine.

Post by **General kala** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:21 pm

So be it Lother. I am tired of trying to defend myself against you. You win. Enjoy your victory.

Sorry, Voodoo. I wasn't trying to come down on you. And I by no means begrudge you your position as master of team Khaine. You know my situation, so I hope you understand.

Can I get an admin to please delete this entire thread? I've just got to learn to keep my mouth shut.

Aachil lathanast · Post by **Aachil lathanast** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:41 pm

General Kala wrote:Can I get an admin to please delete this entire thread? I've just got to learn to keep my mouth shut.

You do not have to apologize for your statements. It is an interesting and quite original idea but it would be hard to implement - it would be followed by an avalanche of complaints. Some may have misunderstood what you ment but that does not matter - you ment well.

Scion of naggaroth · Post by **Scion of naggaroth** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:49 pm

Kala it was quite a nice idea but maybe you went about it in the wrong way. Yes it is asking too much to have a campaign wide impact, but in battle you could use a rule that we started using in my gaming group.

That rule was for every character killed you get an extra 100vps to reflect the vying for power and general disorder that will occur after a commanding officer or his luitenants is dead.

This rule forces people to be more careful with their heroes and makes tham act more like leaders and makes them more costly being used as sacrifices

Post by **General kala** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:28 pm

Thanks for the kind words, guys. But I'd still prefer to have this thread deleted.

This is the second time that something I have posted here has torqued off the High Elf players to the point of posting nastygrams. I open my mouth and stupid comes out. I'd rather not have it sitting here for future generations to see how badly I can screw things up.

That, and I am just exasperated by the whole thing.

Someone do me a favor and report this thread. Call it euthanasia.

Lother · Post by **Lother** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:29 pm

Now you are overeacting as I did.

Yes, I used harsh words, and I apologize, but I though that if it had affected the result of the campaign it wouldn't have been fair to some of the players, I hope you understand my reasons. Of course, if it's only fluff related it would be good.

(Note: when I said stupid I meant Intrigue at court and it's designers, not you)

If it affected the result, it could be great, but only if both sides have the same chances of doing it, not just a side.

So, once more, sorry for what I said, I though you were just trying to win at all costs, I was wrong.

Thranduil · Post by **Thranduil** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:52 am

Kala dont give up. Thats why high elves do. I think its a cool fulffy way to play games other than pitched battle. Its not stupid in anyway. You have to understand that high elves arent always up to par with our durchii genious.

Nagathi · Post by **Nagathi** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:31 pm

No need to lock this IMO. Perhaps move it to ideas for something you can try using as a house rule (like scion of naggaroth suggested).

Besides, there is enough room in the comments section of the log to write what characters died. The Campaign Recorder can see it and tell the Campaign Managers about it. They make the decision.

- Nag

Post by **Langmann** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 3:21 pm

Everyone calm down. The campaign has been very fair to everyone who has been playing.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:34 pm

langmann is right; even if kala's idea were implemented, im sure the campaign admins. would make sure to keep it fair for all sides. they've done a great job so far, and its dumb to think an idea proposed by a member would make them screw up the campaign for any one player (yes, even Asur).

kala, i do like your assassination idea as it is very fluffy for Druchii and would add another dimension to HE/DE games. however, you must do some research about intruige at court; that is a broken rule which in no way represents the real Asur culture

. you must also realize that such a rule, that could benefit only druchii, was bound to make some (if not all) asur players unhappy. yes lother did act a bit radically, but were you to change your assassination rule to be fair to both sides, im sure he wouldnt have responded so harshly. so yes, i think you should implement this rule, but make it a bit less lop-sided and the members of both communities should support it.

Post by **Langmann** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:40 pm

I personally think Kala's idea was very fluffy, extremely fluffy from a DE point of view. IaC is a harsh rule for the HE (but getting v cheap magic is a good rule for the HE) but I don't think we need to debate that since we're stuck with it for the time being.

However what does make sense, fluffwise, is that the HE have always been a tad disorganized and easily turned into chaos when hit in the right spot.

So target the enemy characters away, and if the CMs take notice, they take notice. I see nothing wrong with the idea: after all the HE can do the same thing back, can't they???

Beastmaster kurlan · Post by **Beastmaster kurlan** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:34 pm

i will be playing several assassination games this week. good idea.

Jiangwei · Post by **Jiangwei** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:57 pm

i think the idea is really fluffy, and would provide an opportunity for some nice fluff to be written. i think it would also make it alot more interesting and fun for the players.

maybe make a rule that only commanders and princes killed by assassins count towards this tally of kills, as otherwise the HE players are at quite a disadvantage.

overall, good idea, but maybe include something along the lines of the above paragraph, so as we don't give one side too many advantages.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:06 pm

umm....even with this rule, the Asur are already at a mojor disadvantage. like i said above, the character killing should go both ways, or there should at least be another rule to compensate for the Asur's disadvantage.