Is Mordheim well balanced?

[Tezrek]

Hi. I'm going to play in a Mordheim campaing with people who made some home rule in order to balance the game.

My question is, what to think of that? Does the game is really unballanced? Some rule, weapon or warband? The sling, for example, seem to have been one of their most persistent complaint (Cheap, two-attack and restricted to only two of the normal warband)

Witch change are to be made, if any?

Thanks

[Ansob.]

Mordheim isn't balanced, but it can easily be fixed.

All the additional house rules (the official ones) don't break anything. The problem is with two specific rosters - from the official ones in the rulebook, the Skaven, who can field 20 cheap as hell rats with slings and own you entirely at close range. The simple solution to this is to limit their number to thirteen maximum - they're a clan Eshin assassination cell, not a part of the regular army, and 13 is their holy number.

The other one is the no longer official shadow warriors warband. That one is totally broken and shouldn't be used at all. Elves in general are lamed - if you want to field dark elves, I'd advise you to use the warband that we've created rather than the unofficial SG one as ours is much more characterful, and remember that Quick Shot and an RXB do not produce four shots.

Anyway, the game isn't balanced but can easily be fixed by excluding all elves, sticking to the rulebook's six basic warband rosters and limiting skaven to thirteen members max.

[Cenyu]

There can be found other suggestions on the Specialist games board which nerf Skaven, for example:

- Either 2 Black Skaven or 1 Black Skaven and a Sorceror can be taken, effectively limiting the Skaven to 5 starting heroes.

- Decrease BS (and possibly WS) for Verminkin by 1. This makes them much less shooty.
(or)
- Increase price for Verminkin by 5-10 gc - they gain two important raised stats (M & I) over a basic human henchman withouthaving to pay more (the decreased leadership basically does not come into play if you just run circles around fear-causing enemies...)


While I do play a "warband of 13" trying to keep the holy number of the Skaven race I wouldn't say that they ought to be limited to 13 models - Skaven are meant to be a horde army and just as well a horde warband - a limit of 13 would cripple them severely, especially since their choice of Hired Swords and Dramatis Personae is extremely limited.

[Tezrek]

Only the basic warband? What about the "Empire in flame" one? Are they "playable"? The carnival of chaos sure had nice models.

[Angel of algebra]

I'd say any of the official* warbands are fine, as well as most of the unofficial warbands, provided they are played in the right spirit. It's more about the competitiveness of the players, rather than the warbands. A warband is only broken if you play it in such a way as to abuse it.

*Official warbands: all in rulebook, both in Empire in Flames, plus Kislevites, Averlanders, Ostlanders, Dwarves and Orcs.

AoAlgebra

[Arquinsiel]

Orcs can be made utterly broken for example. I've known a player to have a starting warband of five with crossbows acting in much the same way as a squad of marine does in the fluff. They're largely immune to lower strength attacks and they're not all that bad at shooting either.

[Loflar]

And I have strong reservations against dwarves. With T4, going out only on 6, with many crossbows of 36" range, and overloaded with money.

[Geist]

Having played Mordheim when it first came out I can tell you the following. A first warband my captain died and I started over, then he became total bad ass and had about 3 times immune to psych and cause fear 3 times over. That was my first sigin that this game was a lil off. Next a skaven player ended up with everything and anything his warband could want, to include a large number of hochland long rifles. To sum, if you played it well and for about 12 to 30 games, you ended up with too much. The game starts nice but finishes poorly, it needs some kinda of mid ground system.
Now the hand to hand combat system is very nice.

[Mr_piechee]

well i wold agree with things mentioned already. i used to play alot of mrodehim, and i noticed that the 6 starting warbands were nicly blanced with the exception of Skaven. my bro played them, but there wern't much of a prob. but i'm not sure weather its legal or not, but he used a few models armed with 2 slings... at the time it didn't bother me, but its prob a bit dodgy...

any way, i played lots of different warbands from the town cryer, and they were all sketchy at best. alot of them were under powered, and would be crippled by the 'starting 6' and like said elves were a bit off 2. there high initive was a gd represantation of tere speed over humans but it ment they could climb like spiders...

any way, as long as u keep the games light hearted, its all alright

[Ninale]

I still fail to see why anyone considers any of the elves overpowered including the original Lustria Dark Elves. Elves win the first 3-4 games of a campaign more than not, but after that fall prey to high toughness enemies they cannot do anything about with a 4 max S in melee and ranged, which requires spells and use of poison to stand a chance, but will be outnumbered with a low max of 12 warriors, possibly fighting 20 Orcs in an orcs and goblins warband.

As to overpowered, Cult of the Possessed is the primary offender. Possessed and Mutants rapidly become killing machines than can take on warbands themselves, taking over campaigns. Any warband with 20 models also falls into this by mid campaign. Strength in Numbers and in aforementioned Orcs, someone having 14 henchman(replace any goblins/squigs with orcs eventually) with a base 4T is a tad much.

The only warband I'd totally avoid is Witch Hunters. Human type warband with only 12 members and nothing special about them. They are elves with lower stats and less skills.

Most fun warbands are easily Orcs and Goblins, fluff wise they are hilarious with Animosity and Squigs outrunning the goblins as they try to keep up, and if you use Goblins the hwole not able to become heroes because they are too mouthy.

Ostlanders are also fun, the idea of a bunch of hillbillies with a pack of hunting dogs(as per their special skill) and an ogre for extra firepower who can gain advancements. Plus the most enjoyable spell in the game, Summoning a bunch of Squirrels to pelt your enemy with nuts.

Its all a mater of playing the game to enjoy it though. Some warbands appear strong when they play against enemies who they favor, and some get slaughtered when they try to fight in a style they don't do well in. Even a warband who is "overpowered" can be beaten by a weaker opponent. tactics such as ignoring as much as possible as you kill their weaker characters to force Rout checks is one of the easiest ways to help the odds.

[Loflar]

I still fail to see why anyone considers any of the elves overpowered including the original Lustria Dark Elves.

I cannot comment from my experience, but veterans of our group say that Shadow warriors are overpowered. Probably because all of them have radar and high BS, meaning that you can not hide and they will shoot you before you get into your range.

The only warband I'd totally avoid is Witch Hunters. Human type warband with only 12 members and nothing special about them.

WH are not that bad. True, they start with low stats, but:
- All of them have access to academic skills. Wyrdstone Hunter and Haggle can be quite important, from financial point of view.
- Once they get rich, they can afford several hired swords.
- They have access to S4 T4 henchmen, who can advance. Sooner or later one of flagellants will get A2, and group of A2 flagellants is a fearsome enemy ;-)
- They have reasonably priced canine shields.
- If you save on equipment and hire halfling cook, you can start with 12 - 14 models, and outnumber your enemies ;-)

[Ansob.]

WH are effectively underpowerd, and simply need to be allowed 15 members like all the other human warbands. Same as skaven needing to be allowed only 13.

[Dedguy]

Hey guys, im new here but im big on mordheim

tbh, im fairly sure that it is balanced until you start adding in the newer unofficial lists. Take for example the last Call to arms event (june i think) we were only allowed to use rulebook warbands. at the end of the weekend on the top table it was 2 Skaven warbands, 1 marienburg and 1 sisters. Theyre were a number of other skaven warbands lower down (including myslef) and i know that most of them had the full 20 guys.

I think if skaven were allowed too many models then it would have been changed during one of the mordheim rules reviews, although if you guys have an y suggestions i can pass them onto my dad for the next review as he is on the rules committe

Just my 2p anyway..

[Ansob.]

Hey guys, im new here but im big on mordheim

tbh, im fairly sure that it is balanced until you start adding in the newer unofficial lists. Take for example the last Call to arms event (june i think) we were only allowed to use rulebook warbands. at the end of the weekend on the top table it was 2 Skaven warbands, 1 marienburg and 1 sisters. Theyre were a number of other skaven warbands lower down (including myslef) and i know that most of them had the full 20 guys.

I think if skaven were allowed too many models then it would have been changed during one of the mordheim rules reviews, although if you guys have an y suggestions i can pass them onto my dad for the next review as he is on the rules committe

Just my 2p anyway..

Unfortunately, that stuff clearly says you're new. Not meaning to castigate you or anything, but I suggest you get a fair few games under your belt first; effectively, the majority of the non-rulebook, non-EiF warbands aren't quite balanced (dwarfs, for example); but the rulebook warbands are far from all being perfect. Skaven are overpowered, and so are possessed; these are facts that the rules revision committee refuses to deal with, not because "there's no problem" but because they don't want to see one. Not that I hold it against them, in any case; as an SG game, Mordheim will always be 50% house rules anyway.

[Dedguy]

rofl, look mate i have been playing the game since a few weeks after it was first released...

and honestly the only warband i have really come across which is unbalanced is the Shadow Elves. If you look closely within each separate setting (ie Khemri, Lustria etc) they are balanced. It only becomes a problem when you start mixing different settings with each other, now this is mainly due to different people writing the lists.

Well i just went and had a chat with a member of the MRC and its fairly clear that all GW made warbands are official as in all rulebook and eif are, however all the lustria/khemri and other non-GW ones are not official and so the MRC have nothing to do with them.

But you are right at least 50% House Rules...

oh and if you guys have anything you want passing on to the MRC feel free to tell me

[Ninale]

Shadow Elves are one of the easiest warbands to beat.

They have no access to Mighty Blow and Resilient without first spending a skill to get that, and even then only 2 models can have it. They get beat easily by any warbands with some toughness.

Only way they will salvage a win is with a Shadow Weaver with Shadowbind which will take out anything in the game if you're in melee with it.

Use terrain and hide as you move up on them, and what few shots they do get with elf bows comes at S3 only.

[Ansob.]

and honestly the only warband i have really come across which is unbalanced is the Shadow Elves.

Shame it isn't the only one, then.

If you look closely within each separate setting (ie Khemri, Lustria etc) they are balanced. It only becomes a problem when you start mixing different settings with each other, now this is mainly due to different people writing the lists.

Yep. But since no one bothers to play Lustria or Khemri but instead ports all the warbands to mainland Mordheim, that's a moot point. And making everything overpowered doesn't miraculously balance the game.

Well i just went and had a chat with a member of the MRC and its fairly clear that all GW made warbands are official as in all rulebook and eif are, however all the lustria/khemri and other non-GW ones are not official and so the MRC have nothing to do with them.

Except rewriting them/getting them rewritten and the officialising them. The Rules Committee decides which warbands are official and which ones aren't. Case in point, elves.

oh and if you guys have anything you want passing on to the MRC feel free to tell me

Thanks for the offer, but I don't think five people who play Mordheim once in a while should be the ones to tell the Rules Committee anything. They'd be far better off listening to those people on the forums who've played Mordheim since the game was released and could easily tell you exactly what's wrong in the game without even thinking about it for more than a second.

[Dedguy]

oh and if you guys have anything you want passing on to the MRC feel free to tell me

Thanks for the offer, but I don't think five people who play Mordheim once in a while should be the ones to tell the Rules Committee anything. They'd be far better off listening to those people on the forums who've played Mordheim since the game was released and could easily tell you exactly what's wrong in the game without even thinking about it for more than a second.

*sigh* well you will find that the members on the commitee are dedicated MH players, and like it or not they are the ones who make the rules changes... and accutally they do listen to what other people have to say, i know for a fact that at least half of them attend MH events during the year...

Reread what I posted; I'm not saying they aren't, I'm saying other people are more dedicated than we are.

- A.

[Loflar]

OK, since you say you have access to them, here are two things which IMHO need revision.

1) Parrying rule. Currently it works completely opposite as it should. How is it possible, that higher WS makes successful parrying less probable?

2) Probably also Escaping from combat. We never use it, because it would mean:
- risking being hit
- getting into position to be charged next turn
Where is the advantage for the escapee?

[Dedguy]

ok ill pass them on for you, anyone else?

*edit*

Ok so in reply to those questions:

1) Parrying rule. Currently it works completely opposite as it should. How is it possible, that higher WS makes successful parrying less probable?


It does look like that at first. However try to see it as a saving throw against the best roll of your opponent. You are ignoring the first step which makes a sucessful hit by your opponent less likely in the first place. You have to take both steps together.

That said, the rule is a bit clunky but it works.

2) Probably also Escaping from combat. We never use it, because it would mean:
- risking being hit
- getting into position to be charged next turn
Where is the advantage for the escapee?


If you flee from a multiple combat although you risk the free hit your opponent will be locked and cannot charge next turn. Alternatively you could charge in a cheap sacrificial henchman to allow a more expensive hero to escape. Alternativel if it is the end of the game the escapee may complete a scenario objective such as occupying a building or breaking through.

Either way though you risk being wounded by that free hit. You don't have to use the rule if you don't want but just occasionally it makes sense.

hope this helps

[Loflar]

Ok so in reply to those questions:

1) Parrying rule. Currently it works completely opposite as it should. How is it possible, that higher WS makes successful parrying less probable?

It does look like that at first. However try to see it as a saving throw against the best roll of your opponent. You are ignoring the first step which makes a sucessful hit by your opponent less likely in the first place. You have to take both steps together.

You made me make the computation. ;-)

To Hit roll may be 3+, 4+ (the most common) and 5+ (very rare).

If attacker hits on 3+, that's 2/3 probability of hitting, changed by parrying to 1/2=18/36.
If attacker hits on 4+, that's 1/2 probability of hitting, changed by parrying to 5/12=15/36.
If attacker hits on 5+, that's 1/3 probability of hitting, changed by parrying to 11/36.

OK, so with the original To Hit roll included, we can see that higher WS still has better chance of survival. Regardless the fact, that parrying only makes it better by 1/36. So sword (let alone buckler) for high WS model is a waste of money. Was that the intended effect?

Anyway, it still does not explain, why do low WS models get higher boost of survival chance from using their handweapon defensively.

May be the confusion would disappear if the rule was reworded. I know how to use a sword, and I know what parrying is. It is usual defensive manouevre which everybody does (it can be done even with mace), and it works better the better fighter you are. In rules it is presented as a special manoeuver, requiring special equipment, which can be done by accomplished warriors.

There is also another problem with parrying. If there is 6 rolled to hit, parrying is impossible. As attacks usually come in groups, the probabiity o 6 being rolled is higher than 1/6 (11/36 for 2 attacks: weapon + dagger in off hand). This makes investment into "parrying devices" even less attractive. Was that the intended result?

2) Probably also Escaping from combat. We never use it, because it would mean:
- risking being hit
- getting into position to be charged next turn
Where is the advantage for the escapee?

If you flee from a multiple combat although you risk the free hit your opponent will be locked and cannot charge next turn. Alternatively you could charge in a cheap sacrificial henchman to allow a more expensive hero to escape. Alternativel if it is the end of the game the escapee may complete a scenario objective such as occupying a building or breaking through.

Either way though you risk being wounded by that free hit. You don't have to use the rule if you don't want but just occasionally it makes sense.

OK, I believe you it has some use. But I did not find the part about opponent unable to charge.

[Angelofdarkness]

I've been playing Mordhiem extensively since the first days of it being in white dwarf and i've found that the only real flaws in the original warbands are the lack of models for the witch hunters and skaven slings and the silly number they can get.

with the other warbands i've found them reasonably balenced with dwarves being hard as nails to kill but to slow to get any shards in anything but a straight up fight. Shadow warriors i've found to be a very balenced list unless you get some silly luck with the spellweaver and bring down the casting value of the spells, the speed is less than that of the skaven and the missle fire can be almost completly ineffective against things with a high toughness and armour has anyone here tried killing a toughness 5 ork with full armour and multiple wounds? not going to happen for a very long time with a s3 bow, remember there's no black powder or poisons for elves and a maximum cc strength of 4. The carnival of chaos is however flawed simply because of nurgles rot something that can ruin a campain in its entirety ending often with whoever fought the carnival first ding first then who ever went second going second as nurgles rot ravages all of the other warbands.

The warbands from lustria etc are designed for playing in lustria so its to be expected that a few problems might occur outside of that setting but what do you expect? just the introduction of some common sense and a bit of tolerance between gamers makes this great game all the better