The Chaos Gods and their view on one another.

[Varg]

Hello!

I've undergone some criticizm for wanting to play a mortal army considering of the gods Khorne/Slaanesh, something I totally can't understand. And I want a discussion about the different constellation of the gods.

It's been told to me that Khorne/Slaanesh is the only ones that hate each other. Where does this information come from? I haven't seen it in the 2 latest army books

At the same time, I've been told Tzeentch/Khorne is the most common constellation. How could that be? Simply speaking, we're dealing with a god that despices magic above all, and a god that thrives upon it.

Is Slaanesh viable together with any other god I asked. The answer I got was that Slaanesh/Nurgle is the most commonly accepted alliance for the Dark Prince. Again, a god that worships beauty, together with its extreme opposite?

Is there any constellations that are more accepted than others? Why would that be?

In term of power balance, wouldn't all gods be ready to alliance with any one of the other, if the circumstance is right?

Don't they all hate each other just as much?

Have the players made it up from prejudice?


I've no answers, just questions and more questions. I hope you people out there who know so much, can shred some light on the dark gods views upon each other. I would be so much grateful for any good answers

// Varg

[Hyetemplar]

well its khorne and slaanesh that are the opposites and tzeench and nurgle

khorne only chares about bloodlust
slaanesh want to experience all the spectrums of pain and pleasure

tzeench wants to change everything
nurgle wants to rot everything away


it is true that khorne hates magic but that doesnt mean he is the opposite of tzeench because just about every other diety uses magic so khorne uses anti magic to protect his followers so that they may focus on just bloodlust of melee combat (khorne is crazy but not stupid)

the army comp rules for chaos firs pretty well with the fluff so thats one thing you can take a look at

if you have undivided general then the army can pretty much compose of anything you want

if your general has any other mark, then your units (if they can take a mark) must be of the same mark of the general or of undivided

[Fingol darkwater]

Alright, hopefully this will shed some light on the subject...

khorne only chares about bloodlust
slaanesh want to experience all the spectrums of pain and pleasure

It's more than that- Khornites are totally selfless. Hearing all those Khorne players shout "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD" every other post during the Twilight War confirmed this for me. Slaaneshies are incredibly self-centered, bent on experiencing every pleasure imaginable. That's why those two are opposites. Simply different points of view.

tzeench wants to change everything
nurgle wants to rot everything away

To elaborate, the Tzeench worshipers want to make everything better because they have genuine hopes that the world doesn't have to be so sucky. Nurgle worshipers just accept the status quo and all the hardships that go with it. Again, opposites.

I'm fairly positive that the Four hate each others guts, and they're all just being strung along by Tzeench anyway. As far as I'm concerned they'd be allied with any three who aren't their opposites (but there's always the exception...).

I'm no expert though, everything I know are assumptions and tid-bits I've picked up from COTEC.

[Pmpn8ez]

There was a trove of information about the Chaos gods' rivalries, hierarchies, and such in the old World of Warhammer sourcebook. Khorne's necessity for immediate gratification is seen as a waste of potentially pleasurable experiences by Slaanesh, who in turn is despised as decadent and excessive. Tzeentch is the master of change and the antithesis of Nurgle, whose diseases must be left alone to rot. All of the gods have allied with one another (or all of the others on occasion) at some time or other, which is always engineered by Tzeentch (the master manipulator). As much as they all hate one another, there is almost always a good reason to temporarily ally with another chaos god who has a similar objective in mind. Khorne and Nurgle have been known to make good friends, as have Tzeentch and Slaanesh (because they don't have directly conflicting ideologies).

[Thefanaticking]

If you can make it available to you, the Chaos Space Marine Codex breaks it all down for you.

I used to play a Nurgle army in both Fantasy and 40K.
Apparently, Nurgle and Tzeentch hate each other because Nurgle is the God of Death and Decay, two things that are inevitable, while Tzeentch is the God of Change, making the inevitable well ... evitable.

[Varg]

Hrm, good call

But if you write up every constellation of the chaos gods in pairs, I just seem to find equal huge differences between say, Nurgle/Slaanesh, as I would Khorne/Tzeentch. Then I just can't see any logic at all with "I like this god, screw that one" attitude that the gods seem to have according to the players (who mostly doesn't even play chaos).

If there was truly chaos, I would say they would hate each other just as much. Or one side would just completely win out sooner rather than later.

My point would be, no mather how bad, that there is next to nothing that say 2 gods in alliance aren't as common as any 2 other ones. And judging from the heavy amount of critizicm that I've got, I still see no justification of any of it

[Rasputinii]

Tzeench is the beginning and life, rebirth etc... Nurgle is Death and Decay, the end, finality. The two are polar opposites.

Khorne is, oddly enough, more about self control and martial prowess, although his followers are psychotic loonies its none the less a sort of controlled thing, where as Slaanesh is about giving in too temptations and expereinces all the different sesnses. I like to think of them has Apollo and Dionysus, although I know that isn't very accurate.

Nurgle doesn't really like Slaanesh, and Khorne doesn't really like Tzeench either, but those aren't as basic, what they stand for is not the polar opposite too each other. Thats why the Godly alliances are: Khorne and Nurgle, Tzeench and Slaanesh, and if you want to take two powers in one army you should always take them in their pairs. However I must say in sub 3k games I always feel more comfortable looking at mono-god armies...

Ras

[Thefanaticking]

Also alot of it it just game balence.

I 40K could you imagine facing an army of T5 Plague Marines and 2 W Thousand Sons...

I think not...

[Ansob.]

Also alot of it it just game balence.

I 40K could you imagine facing an army of T5 Plague Marines and 2 W Thousand Sons...

I think not...

Er, no. 40k fluff dates back far before game balance as we know it today, including T5 plague marines and W2 Thousand Sons.

[Thefanaticking]

and 40k fluff is everchanging and contradicting itself

[Ansob.]

and 40k fluff is everchanging and contradicting itself

Not the Chaos gods as described in this thread, no.

[Eldacar]

and 40k fluff is everchanging and contradicting itself

This is in a fantasy forum about the fantasy Chaos Gods. Thus, 40K background has no real place here.

[Rork]

I can't remember if it was Hordes of Chaos or Liber Chaotica that put it this way over over Tzeentch and Nurgle - fundamentally one is evolution and uncontrolled change, the other is stagnation and decay.

Khorne and Slaanesh differ over attitude rather than direct ideology (which in parts links into the Chaos Undivided theory). Followers of Khorne enjoy the slaughter and the fight, while those of Slaanesh enjoy any experience, good or bad - they are linked by a certain thrill of what they do.

Slaanesh, of course, is far from honourable or martial like Khorne. Slaanesh will tempt and steal the champions of other gods to live in his service, and is much more narcissistic and "image-conscious" compared to Khorne. Khorne is direct while Slaanesh is beguiling and tempting - Khorne is not underhand and hates Slaanesh for it.

Slaanesh and Nurgle allying does make some sense. Aesthetically, they would both turn their noses up at each other, but more generally their attitudes to their respective conditions would make them good allies.

Both enjoy the conditions and environments they exist in, followers of nurgle revel in new diseases and a horrific visage (they're a cheery bunch); while followers of Slaanesh yearn for new experiences to brighten their jaded lives as well as constantly seeking their corrupted version of beauty. They are in effect different sides of the same coin.

Ultimately they all compete on some level. It is constantly mentioned that most of Chaos' energy is spent fighting itself - it is a rare day when they unite to focus their attention on the world(s) of mortals.

[Tenebrae]

It's been a long time since I read them, but Slaves to Darkness and Souls of the Lost and Damned had the info you're looking for.

In the end, few of the Four really get a long very well.

Tzeentch is the Lord of False Hopes, and bringer of changes. Creation, mutation and birth of new things are his domains.
Through this, he is the god of magic. The power to do what others cannot.

Nurgle is the Lord of Despair, hopelesness and stagnation. This becomes most clear when seen as disease, but also depression and apathy are the domains of Nurgle.

Thus Tzeentch and Nurgle must oppose eachother.

Slaanish is the Dark Prince, lord of decadence and excess. This requires a community, to create the resources required, and thus it becomes lord of slavery and opression, favoured Chaos Lord of Brettonia (well, in the shadows anyway), and as such a builder of grand empires.

Khorne is carnage, pure and simple. His commands are the well known ones of "Blood for the Blood God, and Skulls for his Throne!". This requires devoted warriors oif great skill, willing to fight for little more than words.
Thus Khorne and Slaanish must oppose eachother.

Khornites has a very low view of the magic used by the Tzeentchians, but generally considers it a weapon, even if only a cowardly one.
Khornites rarely strongly favour the followers of Nurgle.
Those dying from diseases or too apathetic to fight rarely make good sport, and thus fewer can fight in the name of Khorne.
Nurglites on the otherhand are usually fine with the crusades of Khorne, as they tend to instigate missery starvation and plagues in their tracks.

Khorne and Nurgle work well together, fluffwise, as do Slaanish and Tzeentch, in my opinion.
Nurgle and Slaanish less well, and there are fairly strong fluff reasons against Khorne and Tzeentch, even if one ignores the screams of 'cheese'.

[Denthor]

I think its safe to say it dosn't really matter which gods you choose even fluff wise you will be able to adapt it.

The four greater gods all despise each other unfortunatly they need each other to dominate the world by chaos so when it comes to alliances they will do wat ever is neccesary.

[Pmpn8ez]

The four greater gods all despise each other unfortunatly they need each other to dominate the world by chaos so when it comes to alliances they will do wat ever is neccesary.

Only sometimes; actually, only 3 times in the history of the Warhammer world. Most of the time, the gods are so busy with their bickering that they're not willing to ally themselves with one another even when it would be clearly beneficiai to do so. The Storm of Chaos was the most recent of these times and it would seem that even when united the Four Powers are relatively incapable of doing very much damage (though the previous two times, they "almost" destroyed the world...).

[The liger]

I think listwise, any alliance can probably be pulled off, though I'd say it should generally be if there is one God-A character, and one God-B character. Then you could use the army, saying that they've combined together into one force (perhaps under the greater command of a God-C/Undivided character).

Fluffwise, I personally think that on the mortal plane, almost all alliances of forces are possible, because there are aspects of ideology which agree with eachother between the Gods. For example, personally I believe that the mutation of Tzeench could be seen as some sort of disease, so the Gods could be linked in this way. Perhaps the Decay of Nurgle can be seen as a kind of Destruction, and so could be favoured by Khorne. This is just how I see it, and I don't know the exact ideologies of the Gods, but that's why I think most alliances can be justified.

[Alex c]

Khorne and Slaanesh are rivals, as are Nurgle and Tzeentch.

Khorne dispises the self-indulged, "effeminate" nature of deceitful Slaanesh followers, preferring an honorable, selfless, up-front warrior attitude (at least by classic fluff).

Tzeentch is the Lord of Change and the God of life, whereas Nurgle is God of stagnation and decay. Their rivalry is obvious.

I really wish that GW would be consistent with their fluff, and with their classic (i.e. good) fluff in particular. Turning Khorne into a frothing loony, Slaanesh into a pimp, Tzeentch into the wicked witch of the west and Nurgle into Rosie O'Donnel has totally ruined my perception of the Chaos Gods, and newer players won't even have tasted the good old fluff of yore. 'Tis a shame. They hardly even mention the old rivalries any more.

[Hyetemplar]

there are many different elements to this and a lot of levels of thought, there is no one right or definate answer.

we are talking about the 4 great gods of warhammer its hard enough to figure out humans let alone one god let alone four...

if your worried about people saying your army is unfluffly because your mark of UNDIVIDED general commands a unit of khorne and slaanesh then thats their problem.

personally i think the rules for chaos mortals & demons & beasts & marks fits well with the fluff and as long as it is legal (and you should always doublecheck) then you are allowed to do it.

after all you paid for the models, you painted them, and you are playing it for fun

[Venkh]

The way i see it is this:

Khorne - Discipline, Logic, Science
Slaanesh - Hedonism, Emotion, Art

Tzeentch - Hope, Dynamism, Creation
Nurgle - Despair, Passivity, Dissolution

The one thing the Chaos gods have in common is that their characteristics are all bent toward ruination.

[Hyetemplar]

also remember the chaos gods are very selfish and self absorbed, if you dont worship them, then they want you dead.

[Eldacar]

Only sometimes; actually, only 3 times in the history of the Warhammer world.

It was actually six times - once for each great invasion (more specifically, each invasion that was intended to culminate in a battle between the Champion of Light and the Champion of Chaos).

I'll go dig up a post that I saved once dealing with the differences between the four gods. It was quite well-written.

EDIT: Bingo.

The Chaos gods represent more than just those words, Anger, Trickery, Disease and Lust. Khorne is everything to do with anger, vengeance, bloodshed, and so on, but the flip side is honour, justice, righteousness, duty, strength, etc.

Trickery and magic is simply Tzeentch's MO, not the be all and end all of what he is; what he actually represents is change, both for the worse and for the better; evolution, if you like, the cycle of life. To his followers he stands for hope and salvation as well as destruction.

People turn to the worship of Nurgle not because they like disease, but for deliverance and protection from adversity, for the will to survive despite overwhelming odds and stubborn defiance of inevitable despair. This is why he's the opposite of Tzeentch; followers of Nurgle put on a brave face and make jokes about hardship, while Tzeentch worshippers get off their collective asses and do something about it - those two philosophies being totally opposite and mutually exclusive.

Slaanesh isn't just a god for fans of BDSM (although he's pretty good at that ); Slaanesh is perhaps the closest of the Chaos gods to actually being evil, because s/he's the ultimate expression of selfishness and the needs of the one over the many. This is why he's the opposite of Khorne; Slaanesh is selfish, Khorne is selfless. But at the same time, s/he represents a bastion of individuality in a huge world of anonymity and loneliness, a refuge where a single person can feel valued, as though their life amongst millions of others means something.

~

The Warp is affected by the mortal mind, so the idea that the Chaos gods are the most powerful is something that Freud would have agreed with (although whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know ); they represent the id, the unconscious drives that are the most powerful force in the human mind.

The other gods come from the human ego, which is the balance of the id with the superego and is how people behave most of the time (when someone annoys you, your superego says "now now, be nice", while your id says "stab the ****er in the head with a steak knife." The resulting compromise, the ego, is that you shout at them a bit).

If there are Law gods in Warhammer any more, they're pitifully powerless in comparison to the Chaos gods fro exactly the same reason that superego is less powerful than the id; it's just less natural. Chaos is the default state, and the Warp and the gods reflect this. But, although the 'normal' gods are nominally less powerful, they are are able to keep the Chaotic elements of the Warp in check, just as the ego is usually prevalent in human behaviour.

Elves and Lizardmn aren't defenders of Order (especially not with an upper case 'O'); they, and everyone else in the material world (to a greater or lesser extent), are defenders of balance. Big difference.

[Varg]

I think listwise, any alliance can probably be pulled off, though I'd say it should generally be if there is one God-A character, and one God-B character. Then you could use the army, saying that they've combined together into one force (perhaps under the greater command of a God-C/Undivided character).

Fluffwise, I personally think that on the mortal plane, almost all alliances of forces are possible, because there are aspects of ideology which agree with eachother between the Gods. For example, personally I believe that the mutation of Tzeench could be seen as some sort of disease, so the Gods could be linked in this way. Perhaps the Decay of Nurgle can be seen as a kind of Destruction, and so could be favoured by Khorne. This is just how I see it, and I don't know the exact ideologies of the Gods, but that's why I think most alliances can be justified.

It's a very good point, since its a mortal list I've concerned for, and not the gods, I would wholeheartedly agree. Most alliances would be possible as the mortals struggle to survive, no matter who they follow.

Its coming along to an excellent discussion, a good read

[Eldacar]

Most alliances would be possible as the mortals struggle to survive, no matter who they follow.

Actually, in a couple of BL publications, the mortal followers oppose each other almost as much as their gods do. An example that springs to mind would be in Daemonslayer, when they look down from the airship at the hordes assembled outside Karag Dum and watch as one encampment (Slaanesh, I think) invades another (Nurgle).

Note: That example springs to mind most readily because I've been rereading some of my BL stuff recently.

[R4v3n]

just a thought...
but wouldnt everyone like slaanesh?

hes the god of pleasure right? so the chaos gods must like what they do and enjoy it, aka get pleasure out of it. so wouldnt he get pleasure of them getting pleasure? so therefore he would help the othe gods do what they want to do becuase they enjoy it?