Rules Lawyers....

Limenix · Post by **Limenix** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:32 am

Danceman: The money trick is a last resort stategy for people that just won't shut up even when proven wrong.
I don't make a habit of it but some times people react very bad when loosing a game and they tend to "strech" the rules in a very unsporting way. Reasoning with them is out and short of beating them sensless with the rulebook i go with the money trick.
Deep down they know they are wrong , so if he is so dumb to take the bet ..it's his fault,not mine.I think it's pride that speeks in them from some point on.
..."oh yes i know im wrong but , it will be a cold day in hell before i admit to it...."
Stupid people!!!

Zardock · Post by **Zardock** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:54 am

No one in my group twists the rules in fantasy. 40k however is a different story once had a nurgle marine player try to cast daemonic talons on me its a damn combat upgrade its not even in the psychic power column or had a unit of heavy destroyers equipped with gauss cannons and heavy gauss cannons the player refused to see that the codex clearly says that heavy destroyers only have heavy gauss cannon his excuse was that both weapons came in the box never played 40k at that club again.

Dancingpigeon · Post by **Dancingpigeon** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:25 am

I've made honest mistakes in army composition when I'm rushed to make a list in the store... like the time I gave my Skeletons a banner without having a Tomb King in the army (1000pt game), or I accidently took a unit of Chariots because I got confused over which army list I was using... lol, they died in 1 flank cannonball shot, but oh-well. Mistakes like that happen.

As for actual 'Rules lawyering', I don't think there are any people like that where I play... they quickly stop coming because a) the staff kick them out, and b) no one wants to play people like that.

The things that annoy me are 'backseat generals'. Especially when they're helping out a general that has played far more games then I have (14 games of fantasy against someone that has won the store league multiple times).

Mc warhammer · Post by **Mc warhammer** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:26 pm

DruchiiShootLord wrote: This was even after the store owner(a living rulebook)

Wrong. 99% of store members are people who dont play the game, are rubbish at the game, and make up rules on the spot.

On the subject if my opponent is annoying me I will joing my wizzards to my war dancer unit and claim killing blow with them because in war dancer weapons it says "all modals i the unit". Also on the number 6 spell of athel loren I can gain perminate extra attacks because it dosent state the extra attack is only for that turn.

Mornedhel · Post by **Mornedhel** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:40 pm

MC WARHAMMER, while I can guess what you mean, you should try to make your posts a bit clearer. What is a store member, please?

I guess you do mean the store owner DruchiiShootLord was referring to. If so, I must ask you to retract your statement, because 1. I know quite some store owners who do play the game and do not make up rules, but look them up in the rulebook and 2. DruchiiShootLord was referring to a specific store owner who may very well be 'a living rulebook'.

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:50 pm

MC Warhammer is right, Store Onwners and GW store members on the whole (99%) don't have a clue what is going on. They tend to have a good grasp of basic rules and make up the rest. Not to mention a complete inability to construct decent, non-powergammer lists, and tactics are quite alien concepts.

Reality.

Mornedhel · Post by **Mornedhel** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:32 pm

Oh, he was talking about GW store owners? Well I don´t know about them. But around here, store owners of the independant stores are nice chaps all around. I don´t know a single one who I wouldn´t glady play warhammer with, I only know one who does not play.

Still, DruchiiShootLord was talking about one specific store owner who he says is 'a living rulebook'. I don´t see why there shouldn´t be such a store owner.

Kreoss · Post by **Kreoss** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:35 pm

I don't know why everyone thinks GW crew don't know the rules. Maybe my store is just an exception, but between me (fantasy) and the manager (40k) we can answer 99% of rules questions out there.

Also about being rubbish at the game... unless the crew member is completely new, they're usually pretty decent. Not the best, but certainly not rubbish.

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:40 pm

They are only decent in comparsion to the majority of the players who attened "Vet" nights. Decent is completely different from Decent where the latter is the Tournie players perspective of quality. I rate myself as a fairly average player in the greater scheme of things, and I know if I go into a GW with my balanced Druchii list I can beat most of the people there and certainly the staff.

Its all about perspective and relativity.....

Thefanaticking · Post by **Thefanaticking** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:54 pm

Talk about humility huh...

Rules lawyers are not a big problem in my local store and the experiances I have had with them in tourny play have all been found in my favor. When it comes down to it just nix him on his Sportsmanshi score. Case Closed.

Backseat Generals are by far the worst. Setting up a sneaky flank charge and knowing your opponent doesn't realize it, then having some fat, smelly, 30 something guy who doesn't have friends come over to the table and say "Uh-oh buddy look out, he's trying to flank you there.", then walk to another table and bother them .... Sorry got carried away.

Now if you don't mind, i'm going to go and shoot some spirit hosts.

Mpdscott · Post by **Mpdscott** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:07 am

I've never had any issues with Rules Lawyers, but I do have a suitable way of dealing with them:
When they insist on wrongly reading a rule in a way which benefits them to a ridiculous degree (as some of you have said happens), you ask them if the Rulebook specifically allows them to breathe. If they can't find the page reference for it, they are not allowed to breathe while they play the game.
The alternative is to play to the spirit of the rules not the loopholes.

Danceman · Post by **Danceman** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:48 am

But then you can always argue which are "the spirit of the rules" and loopholes. We´ve solved it where I play, if its in the rules its in the rules and thats how we play.

Plain and simple and saves alot of grief.

Druchiishootlord · Post by **Druchiishootlord** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:26 am

well i may just be privileged by the store owner i play at has pulled top 10 honors at a GT 2 or 3 separate times. Unless it's an army specific rule the store owner is quite spot on.

Generally it's not to big of a problem. My store owner is the trump card to all rules so it's really his ruling that overrides what the two players think if they ask him. that goes for the powergamers or otherwise.

Walkerd · Post by **Walkerd** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:42 am

I for one dislike the term "Rules Lawyer". It appears to be more a term to insult people then anything else. To make the one using the phrase feel they are the ones in the right.

Mornedhel wrote:I think some people may misinterpret the term 'rules lawyer'. A rules lawyer isn´t someone who points out to his opponent that a break test isn´t a panic test, ie, normal rules, a rules lawyer is someone who regularly abuses loopholes in the rules ('against the spirit of the game') to get an advantage, like using the 30" killing blow sword master eldy mentioned.

I would say there are two types of people. Those who play by the rules and those who dont. Just because you do not like a rule does not make the person using the rule is wrong. Either this "loophole" is a valid rule and they are right, or it is not a valid rule and they are either misguided or a cheat.

True, some times people do have a genuine difference of opinion on how a porrly written rule should be read, but you examine most arguments and it usualy (not allways) looks like one side is reading with tinted glasses.

I for one would prefer to play someone who knows the rules then someone who does not.

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:16 am

DruchiiShootLord wrote:well i may just be privileged by the store owner i play at has pulled top 10 honors at a GT 2 or 3 separate times. Unless it's an army specific rule the store owner is quite spot on.

Generally it's not to big of a problem. My store owner is the trump card to all rules so it's really his ruling that overrides what the two players think if they ask him. that goes for the powergamers or otherwise.

Wow. Where can we find this man? You must have found that 1% there.

Druchiishootlord · Post by **Druchiishootlord** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:37 pm

you can find this man in Reno, Nevada, USA...i think there's another member here that lives in the same town as me.

anyway...now that i'm reminded of it the player playing an all tree spirit army tried pulling the extra attack thing that MC states. After much heated debate i just scrolled his spell, ran with my Dwarf Quarrellers and counter charged with my Hammerers, broke them, over ran into the treeman 10" behind them and completely nuked him.

satisfying redemption.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:17 pm

I have a simple way of dealing with people like this. I start off playing a game against a player I don't know 'nicely'. ie, not using any of the really dodgy tricks (clipping in 6th is a good example). But if they try to do something legal but obviously not intended (or it is a competitive game on top tables at a tourney for example) by the rules I then play RAW. Generally I come out on top then once I usually know about more of these nasty tricks than my opponent.

Playing that way is not nice if your opponent doesn't know such tricks, but if playing competitively or against good players, or if the opponent tries stuff like that on you they should know the rules well enough anyway so there is no reason not to play by them.

The most annoying thing IMO is when somebody is trying to play in that way but don't know the rules well enough to do so. A lot of the time then your opponent won't accept they are wrong even if you show them the exact rule in the rulebook.

Sleekdd · Post by **Sleekdd** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:51 pm

I've encountered a form of rules lawyering and have been guilty of doing so myself accidentally.

During the previous edition of 40K, my regular opponent played Imperial Guard. One such an entry in his codex mentioned that the Firehound (a flame tank) that, when the tank moved at full speed, it could not fire his flamethrower to its front (probably because the tank would be driving into its own flames). My opponent was pretty creative, however, and decided he could turn the tank 90° and fire the flames sideways. That way, he got his range without firing through the front arc.

My own situation concerned twin-linked weaponry. I had falsely assumed that twin-linked weaponry had the bonus of a re-roll in addition of having two weapons. Twin-linked lascannons would give you two shots, each one able to re-roll. It wasn't until I used that rule in a gaming store that I was pointed to the fact it wasn't true, but I had used this interpretation for a months.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:59 pm

SleekDD: IMO niether of these situations are rules lawyering. The one with the tank is perfectly acceptable IMO. It means he shows his side/rear armour to you so he gets a disadvantage, and it is perfectly legal in the rules anyway

The second is just a case where you got the rules wrong, quite innocently. Arguing the point after being proved wrong, would have been a bad thing to do and is what I find most annoying, but that still wouldn't have been rules lawyering.

Rules lawyering is doing something that is technically legal by the letter of the rules but obviously not what the rules intended. such as shooting spirit hosts.

Druchiishootlord · Post by **Druchiishootlord** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:35 pm

Ant: at your first response the last thing you said i completely agree with and there is nothing more exasperating than said person trying to rules lawyer. Which is the kind of lawyer i have been talking about.

Note: after having asked the store owner has top 10 once and top 20ed a few other times. Granted with his beastmen on the top ten and not his DE :(

Rules Lawyers....

Re: Rules Lawyers....