Rules Lawyers....

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Druchiishootlord
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Rules Lawyers....

Post by Druchiishootlord »

this is in absolutely no way a thread that will ask how horrible rules lawyer(ing) are/is...i just wanna know what's the most assanine rules lawyer BS that's ever been pulled on you.

here's mine: i was playing a game with my dwarves today and i was told that my BSB couldn't have the RoCleaving because the book said that my Thane couldn't have any extra weapon. This was even after the store owner(a living rulebook) gave the thumbs up it was a legal combo.
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Sirist
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Post by Sirist »

Unfortunately, I have to agree with your opponent on that one. When it comes to list writing, I'm pretty anal.

As for my own experiences with people even more anal than myself, there's one person that used to come to the SBB on a regular basis that liked to pretend he was a rules lawyer, but didn't know even the most basic of things. So, I suppose he's a rules lawyer that plays by his own rules...

But normally, people are pretty calm at the SBB. If they get really nasty (i.e. tournament play), I get nasty back.
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Post by Evilzealot »

I'm by far the most rule lawyerish person in the local community. I read the book, I know the rules, I expect others to know them as well. I realize there are abuses in the rules, mainly in 40K, and I try to avoid them. If someone wants to try and play rule abuse, I can probably play pretty nasty on the same level as well. Lists should be 100% legit though, no goofing around with 100 points of magic gear and then extra virtues on Bret lords for example - and I own a Bret army.
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Kreoss
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Post by Kreoss »

I have to confess, I'm a pretty big rules lawyer. At my store, they ask me. That's all there is too it.

The really funny part, though, is that no ones complains when I nitpick little specific rules... I've had people get pissed at me because I pointed out that a break test isn't a panic test. So his dwarf longbeards could still break from combat... And who was it that didn't know that? The manager. ::sigh::

I also got called a rules laywer (in the rude way) when I called upon the rule stating that skirmishers block line of sight even to their own allies. He claimed allies could shoot past them, but not enemies. Oh well.
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Post by Darkspear »

I had a very very bad experience with a rules lawyer. what happened is that one fine day, i was playing warhammer with a bretonnian friend. I skillfully protect my the right flank of my witchelves by placing the regiment to the side of a forest. what happen is that the brettonian lance is at my regiment's right flank, its angled such that although he can see my unit's front, it cannot charge into the flank due to the forest counting as difficult terrain. all is well and the bret player agrees that he has failed charge until the rules lawyer came. the rules lawyer claim that if the bret avoid the forest and wheel in the last min, he can reach my witch elves regiment in the front and since the bret unit is in my flank arc...the unit will then "magically" shift to hit the witch elves in the flank. WTF! its clearly stated in the rules in dat if u cannot reach via ur charge arc for what ever reason u fail charge. the rules lawyer is obviously wrong but he insist and made a big fuss abt it. even my bret fren ask him to f*** off but the rules lawyer refuses. in the end we simply dice off, i lost and much to the rules lawyer's glee the bret lance charge in. broke the witches and overrun into the rest of my army. A skillfully executed move to reduce bretonnian's speed(thus buying time for shooting) is being ruined by that freaking rules lawyer...

one thing abt rules lawyers is that most of them annally chose to misinterpret the ruls by toying with the loopholes in the english language.
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Linda lobsta defenda
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

Never had a problem with rules laywers to be honest.
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Fr0
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Post by Fr0 »

Can't say that I'm not one myself, though when it comes to toss ups/roll offs I'm pretty laxed. There is a difference between being 0001% of a millimeter off of charge and telling someone they need to choose to use either their GW or their shield.

I don't misinterpret the rules to tailor a favourable position for myself, that's cheating really.

darkspear, your friend needs to review that charging rules himself so he'd know that as soon as he touches the forest, his movement is reduced accordingly and may have failed the charge.

Not sure I can tell you the worst rules lawyering, but I can tell you that my group had got into some REALLY heated arguments in the past.

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Post by Eldacar »

Cannon snipers annoyed me. But then, after a while, they stopped, especially when I pulled the 30" Killing Blow Swordmaster trick on them. All's fair in love and war.
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Mornedhel
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Post by Mornedhel »

I think some people may misinterpret the term 'rules lawyer'. A rules lawyer isn´t someone who points out to his opponent that a break test isn´t a panic test, ie, normal rules, a rules lawyer is someone who regularly abuses loopholes in the rules ('against the spirit of the game') to get an advantage, like using the 30" killing blow sword master eldy mentioned.

I rarely have had problems with rules lawyers so far. I only play casual games, and as such I don´t mind the odd abuse of a loophole unless it is completely gamebreaking. In that case I try to calmly discuss it with my opponent, and if he behaves reasonably, I might even agree to roll it off, if he behaves retarded I just pack my things and see if there´s someone else in the store/club who´d like to play.
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Lord malek
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Post by Lord malek »

iv never had a problem with them i mean they are the rules and everyone shouyld play to them unless its house rules which is what i do. thats why g.w make rules
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Post by Silverwarlock »

My store is pretty easy going (little powergaming, little rule abuse) so if someone starts there are a bunch of people telling him to stop there and then

that works pretty well, in a friendly group no reason to make ennemies
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

Is that 30" Swordmaster of doom you're talking about when you give him a bow (as he retains KB)? or the Reaver Bow, or something like that? Or a variation on both?
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Post by Eldacar »

Swordmaster honour and Longbow. The character has the Killing Blow ability, but in 6th edition, it was inherent to him, not the weapon that he used. Thus, a longbow shot could have KB. However, you can't take any other magic weapons with Swordmaster, because the honour says so. It's a good thing, too - I'd hate to see a KB Bow of the Seafarer.

It makes somebody who decided to take Franzy-boy very unhappy.

(Note: As I said, this tactic no longer works in 7th edition - Killing Blow has been restricted to combat except for where the rules explicitly state otherwise, such as the Waywatcher Lethal Shot.)
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Dancingpigeon
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

Sorry, yes, lol, I meant with the honour... good thing they fixed that-- and good thing you couldn't do it withe Reaver/Seafarer bow- hah, now thats pain!
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Post by Druchiishootlord »

well this guy is pretty damn bad too. He does it to everyone. oh he also said that since i could not use my Sh because i can't use my HW/Sh combo. So again...the store rules guru gives the thumbs up on the Sh/HA so the flank or rear. It didn't bug me because he was hitting my hammerers and longbeards on on 5's and wounding on 5's so i wasn't too distressed. In the end i mopped him up in combat.

as for Mornedhel..i think i need to quote you in the first post so everyone gets it. thanx mate.
"Like never before will the weaker race of men tremble before our might."

Lord Yeurl to his captain before a battle in the Old World.

R4V3N wrote:do not question eldacar.


his word is law.
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Post by Limenix »

Well i am i bit of a rules freak myself.
I feel very uneasy when playing for the first time Vs an army i never played before.
I simply need to know all the rules my opponent has to play by.I have been cheated on many occasions until i sat down and memorized each and every rule about all races.
Now when ever my Chaos opponent "forgets" that the deamonic Ward save ONLY works Vs NoN magical attacks i'm only too happy to remind him of it.hehe!!!

Now about rule lawyers.There is a simple way to deal with them.
BET MONEY :twisted:
It really works.When ever some fool claims a rule that clearly is illegal i bet him 50 Euros.
Most will back down .
The really foolish ones will accept.
I bought 2 Dark rider units with money i won.
D.net has been really helpfull with this.I ask you guys , you answer , i print the page and present it.
The Druchii way of the Warrior:

When you must RUN ..... FIGHT!!!
When you must FIGHT .... WOUND!!!
When you must WOUND .... CRIPPLE!!!
When you must CRIPPLE .... KILL!!!
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Post by Danceman »

limenix : that doesnt really prove anything, infact that is pretty bad sport. Just ask them to show you where that rule written etc etc. Throwing money into the picture just takes the fun straight out the game.

I had someone who tried to do this to me, I will never play him again. I got no time for smart-arses. Has it ever occured to you they might not be 100% sure on the rules, just how they have learned how to play? new players? of course they back off...

I am fairly confident about the rules I´d say, but you never know when GW sneaks in with a FAQ or whatever.

That is basicly what I do, I always carry with me the relevant erratas/FAQs when I play a game of WH, it really saves you alot of grief.

But by the sounds of it it sounds like most of you have faced cheaters or the "ooops, I forgot"-type of guys. Rules laywers go by the rulebook to find loopholes etc.
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Post by Xerasi »

I've had a pretty bad experiance in a local turny some time ago... I had my nice Tzeentch deamon list against a "friends" Brets... He used lore of life, and rolled howler wind. I asked it what it did, and he said it denied flying (as a forrest) and the usual stuff... As I'd never faced the wind before I got a bit scared, and asked if it said in the spell description that it realy denied flying. After looking at the spell a min or two he said that yes it does... I was satisfied...

We play, I get craped (yep, a tz deamon list that must use groundmove and is in difficult ground sucks)... He ended up winning the turny by a point... We all protest after the rules where explained, but it was to late... Ever since he's claimed that he didn't know that it didn't denie flying...

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Post by Thisisntnotjt »

My group has two groups of people: players who think they know the rules, and players who let them think they know the rules.

I remember a particular instance where I was playing my lizardmen against a buddies beastmen. A question came up as how to distribute massive amounts of blowgun darts against a skirmish unit of gors and ungors. I simply didn't know the new rules as I had just gotten back into the game, so I asked to see his book. After reading the rules, I agreed with my opponent on how it was to work. The observer would have none of that, however, and decided to argue with the beastman player for, literally, 45 minutes, when we had just come to an agreement. Very silly.

PS: The observer was a bloody Skaven player, keke!
meh...
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Post by The liger »

Aye, I agree with Dancey that cases of cheating or "oops, I forgot" seem to be far more common than actual rules lawyering. I personally have never had it happen to me before, but I wonder how common it actually is. I suppose things like cannon sniping are there, but I think the 7th ed rulebook fixed many of the problems before.
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Druchiishootlord
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Post by Druchiishootlord »

i agree with Liger and Dancey on this one. I mean there are a lot of rules in this game and people tend to forget occasionally, it is forgivable. cheating just sucks and i refuse to play someone who does.

now back to the question, anyone else had some particular problems with rules lawyers, i'm sure you gents that play in rather large RTT and GT might have come across one. ;)

*note this is just as much a vent of frustration for everyone and i hope a learning curve about rules for newer players who read the thread.*
"Like never before will the weaker race of men tremble before our might."

Lord Yeurl to his captain before a battle in the Old World.

R4V3N wrote:do not question eldacar.


his word is law.
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Post by Silverwarlock »

ThisIsntNotJT wrote:My group has two groups of people: players who think they know the rules, and players who let them think they know the rules.

I remember a particular instance where I was playing my lizardmen against a buddies beastmen. A question came up as how to distribute massive amounts of blowgun darts against a skirmish unit of gors and ungors. I simply didn't know the new rules as I had just gotten back into the game, so I asked to see his book. After reading the rules, I agreed with my opponent on how it was to work. The observer would have none of that, however, and decided to argue with the beastman player for, literally, 45 minutes, when we had just come to an agreement. Very silly.

PS: The observer was a bloody Skaven player, keke!


somehow if that happens within 1 minute I will walk the guy down and tell him to f*** off

and not nicely ... people dont stick around when I do that (200 lb/6"2 rugby player with a strong voice and looking brutal usually helps, if you look like you would love to pound the guy's face, he doesnt stick around to test it)
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Post by Darmort »

I'm confident with the rules, and even in Games Workshop I tend to know the rules better than most other people (the exception would be a Dwarf player, I think), but when I'm unsure, I don't make things up or if I vaguely remember the rule twist it too my own means (like a Rules lawyer), I just ask to see the Rule Book to look it up. There are a few Rules Lawyers in the store, but so far I've been right everytime we've crossed (Well, except the time when I said Frenzy is negated by Immune to Psychology (not nearly as bad as him... he said Frenzy gives Immune to Psychology, negates Frenzy and then goes on to Stubborn and Unbreakable... this matter was cleared up by the aforementioned Dwarf Player who showed us the rule... the Lawyer still didn't believe us, and I believe he's been kicked out the store for harrassing people about the Rules once or twice).

ThisIsn'tNotJT - Erm... had you moved? Were you at long range (depends if Blowpipes get long range...)? If both the above applied you'd be hitting on 7s (no Poison), if one, 6s, with Poison, none, 5s with Poison, when it gets to wounding all the Ungors take hits first, and die first, then the Gors. And if Ungors are in base to base, I believe they take the hits first as well...

Darkspear - Erm... next time something like that happens, SLAP him with your RULE BOOK and tell him to READ the damn thing before coming out with ******** like that.

DruchiiShootLord - That Dwarf Battlestandard Bearer CAN take a Runic Weapon, as the Runes are put onto a normal Hand Weapon. A Runic Weapon is NOT, and I repeat NOT an extra weapon. It's an ordinary Hand Weapon.
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Post by Slerac fellblade »

When it comes to 40k I am pretty rules lawyerish because you have to be one in that game or you will be dicked over. The rules for that game are extremely poorly written as compared to fantasy and no one truly has fun playing 40k. Fantasy only if you are Skaven will I be a rules lawyer because they break too many damn rules with their army book.
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Post by Pariah mk.231 »

My little group gets a few instances of "How are your plague zombies T5?!" ... "No, the Nurgle upgrade doesn't give them +1T like the Mark of Nurgle".

Or "So how did the lightning cannon shot hit 2 chosen chaos knights and kill all 10 of them?" ... "I see, you rolled a D10 for damage and scored a 10, which means each model hit takes 10 wounds, not 10 models get hit!".

Apart from that we don't really get people finding loopholes to exploit or blatently disregarding rules and cheating outright. And if we do get into a heated arguement about something it usually ends with one of the other guys who's playing on the computer or something laughing hysterically, and then calling us over to join in the laugh at what he's done and then completely forgetting about the game and wandering off to do something else. We then usually look back at the table after about a week and go "Oh right, we never finished that game"
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