2,000point night goblin army.

Gnosis · Post by **Gnosis** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:50 pm

As always when you post an army list this is a hot debate, Edwin. Why? Because you're mostly wrong.

Where's the fun in this army? I can see some randomness in the Giants, but there it ends. What about the Squig Herders and Hoppers? Surely a NG army cannot go without them. What about a Doom Diver instead of another Giant? More Fanatics in your NG units, to cover the table with a screen of spinning death?

When asked where the fun in the army is, you'll just say "because I can win with it". Well, how is it any different from your powergaming lists then?

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:41 pm

MC, I think you are confusing the idea of a list that is weaker than what you would usually take with a fun list.

Tactically, the army is not really an abusive list. I don't think I'd have a massive uphill struggle to give it a difficult game or beat it with any of my own armies if it was used by a player of a similar ability to my own. Going purely on effectiveness it is a good, fair army that shouldn't cause people to graon if they have to play against it.

However, it is not fun. And it is not a challenge to use. It doesn't include any subtle tricks and/or alternative plans which could be utilised. And doesn't really have much of a fallback when things go wrong. In this way it is very similar to my silly Chaos army with all the Khorne knights. My list is oviously more powerful than this and thus is an abusive army. But the 1 dimensional nature of it is similar to this list. We both have a very smal amount of variety and an overreliance on 1 or 2 unit types. Now I know full well that my chaos is by no means a fun list and so I would never use it in a non-competitive environment unless I wanted practice and my opponent agreed, or my opponent wanted practice against an army like that. You can have a fun game with a list like this but only if the opponent takes a competitive (and by competitive I don't have to mean abusive) list as well. Otherwise the opponent tends to haveto play a nasty type of game of either playing very carefully and rules lawyering, or just hides. Both of these scenarios are no good if what you want is a fun game over a pint or 2, where having a laugh is more important than winning.

This is what I think of when I see this army (and many of your others). They are fine for competitive environments, and generally need a bit of skill to pull off well. But many 'top tier' competitive players will sneer at them because they don't present as much of a challenge as armies with a bit more diversity do, or they aren't unique to you. And most non competitive players will hate the army because they will view it as abusive (which to some extent you must admit it is, if not to a massive degree).

Lord hajjij · Post by **Lord hajjij** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:44 pm

No one is saying that your list is too hard, or unfair (and if they are then they are wrong)

However, coming out and saying that a list with 8 bolt throwers is a 'blast' to play against is just stupid man. Point at a unit, roll a die. Remove models. Repeat 7 times.

There is no variety, there is no flair. Its not themed, it uses a special character. I mean, it has no character at all.

I'm pretty sure you put this list up here just to get flamed because you were bored and you wanted to flame back. I dont think you can convince me that you wanted honest criticism on this list.

Denthor · Post by **Denthor** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:43 pm

dont think you can convince me that you wanted honest criticism on this list.

Does he ever?

Silverwarlock · Post by **Silverwarlock** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:00 pm

MC WARHAMMER wrote:
as far as I can remember they include SAD, empire and this kind of goblin list

Wrong. I dont own empire, and I dont understand slang.

MC WARHAMMER wrote: Tactics for SAD

goes to show you dont know what you are talking about

Lord kalhadron · Post by **Lord kalhadron** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:03 pm

Why such a debate over an armylist? Sure, 8 bolt throwers is not what bring joy to game of warhammer but if all lists looked the same it would all be boring.
Why can´t that list be fun to play against?

Frijoles negros · Post by **Frijoles negros** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:55 pm

Lord Kalhadron wrote:Why such a debate over an armylist? Sure, 8 bolt throwers is not what bring joy to game of warhammer but if all lists looked the same it would all be boring.
Why can´t that list be fun to play against?

He points at your units. He rolls dice. You take whatever save you might have. You remove models. You advance as much as you can while being march-blocked and do whatever you can from a range to him. He points at your units. He rolls dice. You take saves. You remove models. It goes on like this until you're gone, the game's over, or you make it to him. Should you make it there, he holds up units with his giants while he blasts whatever isn't engaged and fanatics get in the way.

You also answered your own question in the sentence before, I've bolded the important part. Hajjij explain this army's lack of character well.

MC: I'd be interested to see a dark elf army made by you.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:06 pm

It sounds like its just me but Id love to play against it. Itll be a fun challenge. But only the first time, no more.

Lordsaradain · Post by **Lordsaradain** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:59 am

Frijoles Negros wrote:
Lord Kalhadron wrote:Why such a debate over an armylist? Sure, 8 bolt throwers is not what bring joy to game of warhammer but if all lists looked the same it would all be boring.
Why can´t that list be fun to play against?
He points at your units. He rolls dice. You take whatever save you might have. You remove models. You advance as much as you can while being march-blocked and do whatever you can from a range to him. He points at your units. He rolls dice. You take saves. You remove models. It goes on like this until you're gone, the game's over, or you make it to him. Should you make it there, he holds up units with his giants while he blasts whatever isn't engaged and fanatics get in the way.

This is basically how all dwarf armies play. What difference does it make if gobbos copy dwarf tactics?

Kiaron hebleth · Post by **Kiaron hebleth** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:36 am

This is basically how all dwarf armies play. What difference does it make if gobbos copy dwarf tactics?

Because there you have mv3 dwarfs advancing on you, not mv6 giants.

I mentioned gunlines and beastmen because if you're facing an enemy that can take down giants without getting ripped apart by bolt throwers you're in trouble.

Using giants to panic beastmen can mean turning the giant around, moving him towards them, hoping they flee and turning around again. Thats half the game gone and your giant has scared off 1 unit.

Against a gunline that deploys in single lines as much as possible your bolt throwers will be wasting the ability to hit multiple ranks with 1 shot.

Against skinks you are dead. Do I have to type out why?

I know you have 5 ranked units and some fast cav, but goblins need more support. Try a small game with just these units (I have) and see.
Animosity and small fast cav unit size means you've got a real struggle to win. Hence you are over reliant on special and rare.

You said you had to think about:

deployment:
Fair enough, but this is mostly making sure your core don't get in the way of your special and rare.

manovering:
Giants forward. Spider riders if you feel like it.

choice of target:
shooting anything that doesn't run, or looks like it might have half a chance against your giants isn't all that taxing.

relative positioning of units:
Giants in front, bolt throwers behind, the rest doesn't really have any purpose.

I'll try to sum up what everyone is saying:

Your army relys on 1 tactic to win without any variation.

Giants charge and hit the enemy far before the goblins (Animosity and lower mv), goblins stay put (you said you would play defence), spiders move to support the giants(fair enough but without the giants units of 5 aren't going to do much), 8 bolt throwers shoot (los could be a problem with 5 ranked units next to them)

Its boring, you rely too much on special and rare without using core. (With orcs and goblins??)

And again, what if someone shoots skarsnik?

Mc warhammer · Post by **Mc warhammer** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:59 am

Kiaron Hebleth wrote:
This is basically how all dwarf armies play. What difference does it make if gobbos copy dwarf tactics?

Because there you have mv3 dwarfs advancing on you, not mv6 giants.

So? You would rather play a army that sits there and shoots than a list with a bit of shooting/magic and combet.

I mentioned gunlines and beastmen because if you're facing an enemy that can take down giants without getting ripped apart by bolt throwers you're in trouble.

Using giants to panic beastmen can mean turning the giant around, moving him towards them, hoping they flee and turning around again. Thats half the game gone and your giant has scared off 1 unit.

Not really, they just have to stand there to cause terror.

Against a gunline that deploys in single lines as much as possible your bolt throwers will be wasting the ability to hit multiple ranks with 1 shot.

Ture, but that is why I have the other 1600 odd points of stuff in my army.

Against skinks you are dead. Do I have to type out why?

So what. If every army that couldant beat the most powerful army in the game wasant worth takeing then there would be few armys in the game at all. As it is I feel I could play for a draw.

I know you have 5 ranked units and some fast cav, but goblins need more support. Try a small game with just these units (I have) and see.
Animosity and small fast cav unit size means you've got a real struggle to win. Hence you are over reliant on special and rare.

The sise of the spiiders means nothing, if I had a choice I would take units of one, they are mostly there for re-directing, the stuff you can buy for core goblin units is not woth takeing.

You said you had to think about:

deployment:
Fair enough, but this is mostly making sure your core don't get in the way of your special and rare.

manovering:
Giants forward. Spider riders if you feel like it.

Completly wrong. It will all depend on the opponent and terrain.

choice of target:
shooting anything that doesn't run, or looks like it might have half a chance against your giants isn't all that taxing.

So? This is what all shooting units do.

relative positioning of units:
Giants in front, bolt throwers behind, the rest doesn't really have any purpose.

If you can see them as haveing no purpose I suggest you learn how to play warhammer. Your welcome to PM me so I can teach you.

I'll try to sum up what everyone is saying:

Your army relys on 1 tactic to win without any variation.

Wrong.

Giants charge and hit the enemy far before the goblins (Animosity and lower mv), goblins stay put (you said you would play defence), spiders move to support the giants(fair enough but without the giants units of 5 aren't going to do much), 8 bolt throwers shoot (los could be a problem with 5 ranked units next to them)

All of this completly wrong about how I would play it.

Its boring, you rely too much on special and rare without using core. (With orcs and goblins??)

How would you know when you have proven you dont have a clue how I will use this army.

And again, what if someone shoots skarsnik?

I will just have to deal with it, and at least thats lss shooting at the rest of the army, or if possable I can eather aim to sheld him or to kill those shooting units first.

As for the guy who asked for my dark elf army its.

Dragon with tht powerful weapon.
2 level 1 scroll caddys.
lots of dark riders
shades
harpys
4 bolt throwers.

Silverwarlock · Post by **Silverwarlock** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:58 pm

you know MC ... how about instead of explaining a new wonderful tactic every time (such as hidding in trees, or shooting with bolt throwers), you actually explain what the point of even posting is

in the meantime can a mod just cut his threads before they hit 2 pages of uselessness, or transfer then to the humor forum?

Kiaron hebleth · Post by **Kiaron hebleth** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:01 pm

Not really, they just have to stand there to cause terror

True,u nless the ambush is more than 6'' away.

The sise of the spiiders means nothing, if I had a choice I would take units of one, they are mostly there for re-directing, the stuff you can buy for core goblin units is not woth takeing

True, but you didn't address my point. Unsupported goblins are in real trouble. Apart from your special and rare you have very little support. So that 1600 points isn't much use.

Completly wrong. It will all depend on the opponent and terrain

? Regardless of terrain I still reckon you'll just be moving the giants forward. Theres not a lot of room for sublety here.

So? This is what all shooting units do.

That was my point. This was from your list of stuff you have to think about, I said picking targets isn't too difficult.

If you can see them as haveing no purpose I suggest you learn how to play warhammer.

In this army their purpose seems to be watch the giants go, and kill anything that gets past the 2 giants and bolt throwers.

Quote:
I'll try to sum up what everyone is saying:

Your army relys on 1 tactic to win without any variation.

Wrong.

Care to say why?

All of this completly wrong about how I would play it.

Ok, how would you play?

I will just have to deal with it, and at least thats lss shooting at the rest of the army, or if possable I can eather aim to sheld him or to kill those shooting units first.

Fair enough. You can't "just deal with" having a ld 5 army but it shouldn't be too hard to shelter him.

I have to ask, is this army based on the passage in every army book where it says an army made of all bolt throwers or all giants wouldn't make a fun game? It seems to be as close to it as you can get.

Look, I want this to be a proper discussion. Your point about keeping skarsnik alive is 100% correct, but I don't feel you've addressed my other points properly. If you feel i've missed the point on something you've said ask again and i'll try to answer.

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:09 am

Reluctantly I am going to lock this down now. There have been too many reports made abut it to go on. If any one feels that it should be re-opened please feel PM me and we'll see whats what.

One word of advise for future threads like this. Don't make definitive points on big issues without writing a decent amount to back up your points. Posting one line in response to every thing doesn't give you an argument. Never says I have tactics and then not explain what they are, or demand that some one PMs you for them. It looks like you have no tactics and also doesn't benefit the community as a whole.

MOD RasputinII