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Use of Chaos Warriors 

What God would you take ?
Khorne 14%  14%  [ 5 ]
Nurgle 20%  20%  [ 7 ]
Slaanesh 23%  23%  [ 8 ]
Great undivided 23%  23%  [ 8 ]
This army can not work 20%  20%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 35

Use of Chaos Warriors 
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Highborn

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:41 pm
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so here is the idea

an MSU list, elf style, an all infantry chaos mortals, no beasts allowed (some demons could be fine)

anything but tzeentch is good, only 1 god though (so either a great undivided or khorne or nurgle or slaanesh, which can be mixed with undivided)

all infantry ... so technically, no cav, this means counting on demons or chaos hounds to do the killing of war machines and the like

no cav just means no knights or marauder cav

I also dont want it to become a monster fest though a few monsters could be included

so the basic idea would be a MSE list, not a marauder horde ... the no cav could be infringed on a bit, no more than 10 knights, no marauder cav seems fine

chaos warriors are the core of this army however

is this possible as an effective list ? if yes what would be your choice of a god

the warriors seem overpriced ... but they do have some amazing stats ... could their disadvantages (M4, price) be compensated in some way to make them effective

another thing that flusters me ... can I make this list not be one dimensionnal ? and can it be able to take on all comers (including SAD RAF and the like, we are talking tourny lists)


Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:26 pm
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Evil Vampire Lord Fluffy
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If you need to take chaos warriors, take them undivided. That way, you're wasting less points when you don't end up using them during the course of the game. Effective is all a matter of perspective, for example, if you were able to con an opponent into shooting them up and ignoring the rest of your army in a vain attempt to take half points for the unit, then you've got yourself quite an effective unit. All infantry is another story... insofar as marauder horsemen count as fast cavalry and can still be included (and not just cavalry, but that's pushing the spirit of what you're trying to do :D ).

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:15 pm
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Rotting skull on the Glottkin trail
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this army cannot work. in my experiance M4 is just too slow to use any form of MSU. If you were gonna try something, I would use undivided, as they can still flee, are cheap(er), and are still pretty resistent to psych.

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:23 pm
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i would go either undivided or Slaanesh to keep the units reletivly cheap, but either way i would also include mounted deamonettes, and furies for war machine hunting, flesh hounds don't work very well for hunting as the frenzy tends to keep them from getting the chance to charge the machines, and warhounds panic too easily (especial since they wont be near the general due to him being in an infantry block)

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:31 pm
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Highborn
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Well you could always go for some magic, you have movement and CC so it should not be to onedimensional. Unless you are realy effective at baiting and positioning you will have quite some trouble against RAF I would say, though good use of warhounds to protect you back should make you able to overcome it, especially if you combine it with some magic (preferably Slannesh). Overall I'm not to keen on warriors, and you will need controll of you army so even though Khorne packs the best punch and nurgle helps a bit with the fearcausing ability, I'd go for slannesh or undivided. Perferably slannesh, because magic is going to be important.

Id go for a couple of chariots, a couple of warrior regiments, though I'm not shure how to equipt them, add in some mounted daemonettes, a group of furies, a couple of spawns and some mages and It might work.

I think I'd go for something like this:

Exaulted sorc of slannesh, lvl 4, daemon sword, talisman of protection.
Rides a Slannesh Chariot.

Undivided Chaos sorcerer, lvl 2, 2x scroll
Rides a Undivided Chariot

10 Undivided Chaos warriors, Shield, GW, muso
10 Undivided Chaos warriors, Shield, GW, muso
10 Undivided Chaos warriors, Shield, GW, muso

6 Warhounds
6 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

5 mounted daemonettes
5 mounted daemonettes

5 furries

2 Fiends of slannesh.

I might even consider droping a spawn to get 5 more units of 5 warhounds to bait, but it may not be necessary.

It's pretty fast concidering the Chaos warriors, with 2x move 10", a unit of flyers, 2x 3d6 move and 2 chariots + 4 units of warhounds.

The chaos warriors are tuned up to do what ever suits them at the time, they can flee and rally, and have some different options in CC.

Maybe it's a chariot that should be droped for the extra warhound units. I don't know what you should do against SAD armies, you will have a hard time I suppose, but not the worst, but against Raf I suppose you will be fine. Just make sure that you have some warhounds behind you lines to redirect the pegasis.

On a side note the assassin also has some amazing stats, but he is also overpriced.

Xerasi

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:47 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Ok
I have been trying to play different styles of chaos warriors list for a while.

Reasons are. a.) Ive had plenty of proven lists that combined the speed of chaos and mixed troops to do very well.

I like the chaos warrior model (old style) and I like challenge of the game.


Here is the first list I tried, and have done ok
----------------------------------------------------------
3 characters 424pts total.

General
Exalted Undivided on Demon Steed with Berserker sword

Aspiring Champ of Khorne with Great Weapon
Aspiring Champ of slaanesh with Biting Blade

All characters will go in chaos warrior unit that matches their mark.

Core

10 chosen Undivided chaos warriors hand weapon shield with musician
12 Khorne warriors with halberds and musician
12 Slaanesh warriors with extra hand weapon. And muscian
2 units of 5 chaos hounds
2 khorne Chariots

Special

12 demonettes
6 mounted demonettes
7 furies
12 bloodletters

Rare
2 chaos spawns
-----------------------------------------------------

The variant I tried, and massacred a vampire army with yesterday was..

1 chaos lord with great fang on demonic mount
1 exllated champ of khorne with axe of khorne
1 exalted champ of slaanesh with whip of slaanesh on chaos steed

13 slaanesh warriors.. extra hand weapon
13 chooslen knorne warriors with halbers/shields
2 units of chaos hounds
2 khorne chariots

7 furies
2 chaos spawns of slaanesh

This list to me was too few units, but did very well against the undead. Of course it was charge foward as fast as possible to win.

----------------------------------------------
I feel the first list is better. I will try a 3rd varient, with only 1 character, and fill out the units a bit more, but make the character a little tougher.



To me, the biggest problem with MSU style chaos warrior list, is it talkes only a little bit of damage to bring all your units to half points, and makes the army very easy to draw against. you can deal out some damage, but you really have to get the damange dealt to hope to get a clear victory.




If you want to go with one good and foot troops. I would recommend Khorne or slaanesh :) both get rid of psychology issues that could really hurt another style.

If you go khorne, you just need enough stuff to protect yourself from stupid random frenzy charges.


Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:32 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Undivided is the way to go here.

You get to re-roll psychology tests, making you less vulnderable to psychology while at the same time avoiding the downside of Khorne and Slaanesh (inability to flee as a charge reaction).

Plus, it's cheaper.

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:46 pm
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Death Jester
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As for a god, either undivided or Slaanesh, as you will be immune to psychology. Also, make sure you give all the warriors either halberds or two hand weapons. With a single hand weapon and shield, they don't hit nearly hard enough for the amount of points you pay. I'd also take a couple of Chaos spawn as well. Make these guys Slaanesh as they move 3D6 not 2D6.

As for characters, take a large amount of magic. This should give your army a little bit of protection before you get to the fight.

Sean

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:47 pm
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Adept of Khaine
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I say undivided. Especially since you're already wasing points on warriors. ;) No point beefing them up with a mark.

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:56 pm
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Highborn

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ok, first of all thank you for all the replies, some very constructive ones and good ideas there

(the khorne vote in the poll is me, I had to vote something to see results lol)

so ... slaanesh or undivided ... that seems to be a general consensus, probably a mix of both would do, my 3 huge reasons for slaanesh would be spawns, magic and MDs

now one other question ...

is there absolutely no way to make the warriors worthwhile ... somehow dwarfs with GWs and shields are amazing, for 11 points ... for 5 points you get +1S +1 WS +3I +1M -1Ld but reroll psycho ...

why are they so bad when dwarf warriors totally rule?

same comparison is pretty good with saurus, because I have seen saurus work very well

is it the lack of decent support ? lack of shooting to force the ennemy's hand ?

I have never been scared by chaos warriors because I have only ever seen beginners use them, is this because they cant be used or because noone bothers ?

and why the hell doesnt GW drop 2 or 3 points of chaos warriors like they did for DEs ... they are way overpriced just the same


Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:15 am
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Witch Elf
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Dwarves are good because they do not have to move. They castle up and wait for you. With chaos you need to get into cc (dwarves dont) in order to win. That is where chaos warriors fall, they are just to slow to warrant their points costs. All other armies can either dance around them or shoot them to bits (or in the case of orcs and gobbos just mob them).

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Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:00 am
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Highborn
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I don't know... I think an army with 3 units of 12 Warriors w/Halberds or Great Weapons, maybe one of them chosen, deployed in 6x2, with a few units of marauder cav/mounted daemonettes/screamers/furies/warhounds to harrass the enemies flanks and prevent them from outmaneuvering you. Add in a Chariot or 2 of either type... and some Hammer units of your choosing- it could work, IMO.

If you can utilise some of Chaos's fast hard hitting stuff to limit the enemies movements while also using a few units of Warriors to slowly hem them in... I think it could be viable.


Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:45 am
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Trouble is 3 minos are always going to be better than 10 Chaos warriors as well as cheaper. They're faster, hit harder, cheaper, are just as resiliant as chaos warriors, and cause fear. So why would you bother with the warriors?

Same comment for knights really too, hit harder, faster and can take just as mush damage. Chaos warriors are just a bit redundant really. There is no tactical reason you'd ever want them rather than minos or knights. If you want combat res then go for a unit of marauders or dogs on top of your hitty unit and you'll probably ystill have points left over from the big unit of warriors you could have had instead.

So really a warrior army is never going to work well at a competitive level ince the price of warriors is far too high and there are loads of other units in the chaos army that fill their role much better for less points. If you really want to try to make the army work then your best bet is probably a mix of undivided (and/or marauders) and Khornate units to try to get the damage up, along with plenty of magic in an attempt to imitate a shooting phase to try to make the enemy come to you..

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Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:16 pm
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Ant wrote:
Trouble is 3 minos are always going to be better than 10 Chaos warriors as well as cheaper. They're faster, hit harder, cheaper, are just as resiliant as chaos warriors, and cause fear. So why would you bother with the warriors?





3 minos attacking a unit of 10 chaos warriors have a good chance at failing.

They will have to deal with better Weapon skill, banner and rank,

Plus with only 3 minos, it only takes one good spell to drop one on the way.


Dont get me wrong. chaos warrior armies have flaws and hard to play. I'm still going to figure out a good competive one for tourament scene next year for the simple challenge of it,



12 to 15 strong units. halberds and some with khorne, will do the trick, if you can protect the sides..


Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:29 pm
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Highborn
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However, Chaos Warriors have a 5+ (Possibly 4+)save so are less vulnerable to shooting, WS5, so hitting almost everything on 3's, the oppurtunity for a magic banner, and are a core choice.

I'm not arguing that they're not overpriced, but I still think they are viable. Not something to build an army around, but 3 units of 12 in 2000pts isn't really that many points, plenty of room for the fast stuff I mentioned earlier, and some Mino's, too.


Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:40 pm
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Lord of Khorne
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Chaos warriors are viable, but as is often the case with an expensive unit, you've got to make the list around them to get the most out of them.

Basic Chaos warriors will benefit greatly from a bsb and a unit standard toting a war banner (The banner of wrath is largely forgettable), and if you really want to play the risks, dump in the Banner of the Gods - best to put him on a horse if you do...gets a decent save that way (otherwise, armour of damnation should keep him alive).

Magic, flying units and fast cavalry should be added to taste. The Helm of Many eyes on a foot character is advisable, while the ld9 of a Chaos Lord is ideal for help your units stand up to charges.

And always, always always give them shields.

You're not going to get many massacres out of Chaos Warriors, but it won't preclude you from winning.

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Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:19 pm
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Lord of the Venom Sword
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carnage4u wrote:
Ant wrote:
Trouble is 3 minos are always going to be better than 10 Chaos warriors as well as cheaper. They're faster, hit harder, cheaper, are just as resiliant as chaos warriors, and cause fear. So why would you bother with the warriors?





3 minos attacking a unit of 10 chaos warriors have a good chance at failing.

They will have to deal with better Weapon skill, banner and rank,

Plus with only 3 minos, it only takes one good spell to drop one on the way.


Dont get me wrong. chaos warrior armies have flaws and hard to play. I'm still going to figure out a good competive one for tourament scene next year for the simple challenge of it,



12 to 15 strong units. halberds and some with khorne, will do the trick, if you can protect the sides..

3 minos with great weapons vs 10 chaos warriors with shields and a banner:

The minos will get the charge since they have nuch more speed.

They'll kill 3.125 warriors on average. Lets be generous to the warriors and call it 3.

the 2 warriors that attack back do 0.6666 wounds. Again lets be generous and call it 1.

Result:
Minos: +3 wounds, +1 outnumber
Warriors: +1 wound, +1 rank, +1 banner

So the warriors autobreak due to fear.


If the warriors get the charge:

Warriors get 1.666 wounds
minos get 3.125

If we are again generous to the warriors and make it 2 and 3 wounds respectively we get a drawn combat. But on average the minos win and autobreak the warriors again.

Cost of warrior unit:162pts
Cost of Mino unit: 138pts

Plus minos can have a banner, marks etc just like warriors can. Basically you are paying more points for less combat potential and less speed if you go for warriors

No contest IMO



Quote:
However, Chaos Warriors have a 5+ (Possibly 4+)save so are less vulnerable to shooting, WS5, so hitting almost everything on 3's, the oppurtunity for a magic banner, and are a core choice.

But they are slower so will have to take more shooting and have less attacks so will still do less damage despite the high WS. Chaos magic banners are nothing to write home about either really. OK they are a core choice, but then so are minos in my (doombull led) chaos army! And chaos special chioces aren't often as vital as Druchii and other army's can be.

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Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:50 pm
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There are still variables in the 3 minos via 10 chaos warriors

honestly. I would never field just 10 plain chaos warriors anyway, so its nothing i really need to defend

for both sides you gotta add in marks, banners, and stuff like that.

Id agree that minos will get the charge most time.. and thats a huge advantage no doubt.. However, how often will this fight happen in a vacumm.


If i was getting charged by 3 minos, id make sure to do whatever i could before the charge to make it more to my favor, but i love to munipulate the battle field and never make the fights far. its part of the fun of the game.

chaos warrior army would not be easy, hence why I find it a fun challenge. Winning with the best troop choices is easy, winning with models you want to field because you happen to paint them better and like the look of them is where the interesting part comes in.

I can play my mounted 44 model slaanesh chaos army. win my next few dozen games, be bored out of my mind... or find a challenging army to play.


Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:37 pm
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Lord of Khorne
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carnage4u wrote:
chaos warrior army would not be easy, hence why I find it a fun challenge. Winning with the best troop choices is easy, winning with models you want to field because you happen to paint them better and like the look of them is where the interesting part comes in.


That's what Chaos Warriors are all about :D.

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Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:31 pm
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well, i voted slaanesh as that is what i play the most. At 2000 pts i run a unit of 14 chosen with shields, Fc and joined by an exalted champion. Yes, it is expensive, but they can take damage and not run before they get into combat. I tried with 11 and character, and rarely got 4 and the character to combat, thus upping it allows me a whole 5 frontage of attacks.

At 3000pt i run the same config but 19 and the character. The point of this is to draw fire. with a 3+ armour save from shooting, unless its high strength or ignores armour, i won't lose that many. plus, all the fire that hits them, is ignoring something else, allowing the rest of my army to get into combat with less casualties. If my opponent ignores the warriors, he has a unit of chaos warriors with 2 attacks at S4, WS5 with a 2+ armour save to get rid of with a +4 to CR generally. (i always lose 1).

To Me, this is the only way to take warriors, in one unit with max armour protection and bodys to soak up damage.

The same for my Khorne warriors i'm building into my Beast army, 19 chosen warriors of khorne with add. h. weapon and fc, joined by exalted. Very, very expensive and with less armour protection, but more hurt. The difference between my slaanesh army and beast army is the other big points options. my opponent against slaanesh has the warriors, Knights and Chaos lord on mount of slaanesh to choose from. These are surrounded by marauders and mounted marauders.

For my khorne, i have the warriors, a giant (always a target magnet), bestigors and there's always an ambushing unit or two to draw attention. in every game i've played with these lists, the warriors do okay, and my opponents usually don't have enough firepower, even the 6 warmachine dwarfs, to totally eradicate the 20 warriors, giant, and bestigors or the 20 warriors, Lord, or knights before they reach combat. And the marauders usually get stuck in easily and the beast herds neutralize the 1 or 2 warmachines when they come in. It just sucks using them as a warmachine target, which is the only way they've worked for me.

matt schuur

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Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:59 pm
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I vote nurgle as if you are going down the just infantry option I think your best chance is to take a couple of big fear causing units, stick caracters in them, take some spawn to protect their flanks and let fear, outnumbering and being hard do the rest.

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:35 pm
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Khorne.

Khorne is the only mark proving a positive effect for your troops, and makes them somewhat worth their HUGE points cost. With Two atatcks each the above problem with Minos isn't sucha problem, because, well, they get lots of high S high WS attacks. However this doesn't get around the problem that Chaos warriors are crap.

However based on my MSU Saurii musing I don't see why it can't work if you sort the rest of the list out. Play with at least 5 units of them. None of this two or three crap, do it properly. 5 Units of Khorne Warriors with GWs. 10 of them. Okay they are just under 200pts a piece, but then they damned hard, and its not that much if your enemy gets them. You then need to add in Marauder lines with Flails and start playing games with lines of troops.

Tricky but might be fun and highly rewarding. It might be worth PMing Kel and asking him if he will explain how he plays his Khorne infantry army...

Ras

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Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:48 pm
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Highborn

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I think you should commit fluff suicide, and include khorne warriors with an undivided general, and then you can have a unit of screamers and a unit of furies. As i said, this is fluff suicide, but it would still help the warriors actually get across the board.


Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:47 pm
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Highborn

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I think fluff suicide would be silly

playing warriors is going for comp and fluff marks in the first place lol

I think I might just go back to the old plan of converting them into grave guard ... add in a few zombies some characters and some converted imperial or chaos knights and we have a full VC army lol

(the start of the idea was having 50+ chaos warriors lying around)

maybe some good conversion to come, could be fun


Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:50 pm
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I'm rather sad that Chaos Warriors are such a rare sight in many lists - When I started WHFB the Chaos Warrior models and illustrations always seemed so iconographic for the whole Warhammer world and it saddens me to see that they are underrepresented in actual gameplay.

I would really like to see a viable mortal infantry "Horde" (as the name "Hordes of Chaos" implies) instead of the smaller elite mounted warbands which are hitty but not that an overwhelming sight.

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Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:55 pm
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