Orcs and Goblins - first list now up

For discussion about all the lesser races of Warhammer. Talk about armies, tactics and lists to take on the Druchii here...

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Prince of arnheim
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Post by Prince of arnheim »

About the fanatic slingshot. I had this idea:

N=Night Goblins
0=Orcs

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

OOOOO.......OOOOO
OOOOO.......OOOOO
OOOOO.......OOOOO

Would this be totally stupid setup? The idea here is that the Orcs will charge the NG's in the rear and then they can in turn flee as a reaction to hopefully put them further into the enemies battle line.....Fanatics can be released when NG's are fleeing right?
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Prince of Arnheim wrote:Would this be totally stupid setup? The idea here is that the Orcs will charge the NG's in the rear and then they can in turn flee as a reaction to hopefully put them further into the enemies battle line.....Fanatics can be released when NG's are fleeing right?


That's not a 'fanatic slingshot'. Slingshot's a dirty trick I wont explain here because we don't need more people trying it out. And yes, it's a horrible idea. For several reasons of which the least is not the fact that it's more than slightly iffy on the rules side of things.

Down to the basics, you don't want to release the fanatics on the centre of the battlefield you'll have to cross anyway with the rest of your army. Use the fanatics to protect your flanks and to fend off hard hammer units like knights and heavy infantry. The tactical use and psychological factor of fanatics is more important than the actual damage they cause. Ironically, they seem to meddle with your opponent's plans much more the longer you manage to hold them inside the night goblin units.
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Post by Silverwarlock »

just a few comments as the thread seems really interesting (and I was looking into an O&G army a few months ago, so I have the army book and some ideas)

first of all I really like blood templar's list, which is better than anything I managed

I was wondering why the giant squig vs a wolf ... the wolf is more reliable, faster, cheaper and mainly allows you to stick him in a unit while waiting to release him. a goblin like that sitting in the front of one of the orc blocks has great potential ...

note that he gives them +1 on the WAAAAGH roll, making it a 2+ rather than 3+, he also gives some decent extra attacks (and even if he dies, D6 S6 hits will hurt your ennemy more than you, the ennemy is either loweer T, or more expensive, and S6 doesnt leave much to armor)

I know the ennemy has lots of shooting targets (5 chariots and a giant ...) but the giant squig seems rather fragile, so does the goblin ... right up there with a sorceress on pegasus ... without the flying part so quite likely to end up in LOS

actually, I just thought of an interesting alternative ... stick the hero in a chariot

to do so, take a shaman off the chariot. Make said shaman a night goblin, give him the pipes of doom (now the iffy part is whether you can afford to loose a scroll ... or drop the staff for 2 scrolls)

the extra 10 points are easily compensated by the points from the squig

this army can probably deal with 4 dice and 2 scrolls defence, you then get the great pipes, and your chariot is better ... note as well that the goblin will probably die when the ennemy countercharges your chariot, and so inflict D6 S6 to more units

it also makes the goblin shaman less vulnerable (though he might want to leave the orcs after the first few turns)

that actually leaves you with about 30 points extra you can use for something else (that whle night goblin idea maybe? )

for fanatics I also think they are more there for their potential than their actual strength

especially if you have chariots and characters on charots, fanatics become a hazard, I would suggest just using one or 2, they no longer ruin heavy cav and their other targets arent worth the risk for 75 points

you could even just not have fanatics, use NG as flankers, meat shields, suicidal maniacs ... and screw with the ennemy's brain

even against brets, D6 hits (average at 3.5), each hit wounding on a 2+ (thats 3.5*5/6), and a 5+ armor 5+ ward (so 3.5*5/6*5/9 ... calculator ... 1.6 kills)

sure 1.6 kills sounds good ... but thats not counting that a fanatic is as expensive as a knight, can kill your troops, and chances of delivery arent great (between panic, fanatics getting pulled etc) ... and brets are the best case scenario, usually fanatics are a few hundred points for a few kills in my experience (against decent players, but that is what you are up against)

anyhoo, those are my thoughts, good luck making those lists
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

SilverWarlock wrote:actually, I just thought of an interesting alternative ... stick the hero in a chariot

to do so, take a shaman off the chariot. Make said shaman a night goblin, give him the pipes of doom (now the iffy part is whether you can afford to loose a scroll ... or drop the staff for 2 scrolls)


This is a great idea if I wanted to adapt my list for more power. I too think both the wolf and the chariot are probably slightly better choices than the Great Squig but nowhere near as fun. Being skirmishers Squigs can also make use parts of the battlefield other units cannot (excepting Spider Riders) - the terrain features. Great Cave Squig can charge out of the woods without line of sight. It's not terribly reliable but fun as hell.

It's too bad Night Goblin shamans cannot be mounted. It would really help to take the pipes of doom to the enemy. It is still potentially quite nasty item as it is but being 35 pts you really have to choose between that or the staff of sneaky stealing (excellent, quite possibly the best item in the list) when you're running only two shamans. You can take both but then you're out of room for scrolls and really have to take Mork's Spirit Totem somewhere. I do not want to swap it for the Gork's Waaagh Banner, 8+2d6" is just too good to miss and there's no way I'm taking Big Uns.

I have been somewhat unimpressed with the performance of my fanatics lately and that is why the first draft of the list included just two units of orcs instead. It scares me to go to war without fanatics however. To think of it, I don't think I have done that with O&G for the last 8 years. Leaving out the fanatics but still taking a Night Goblin unit would preserve their potential threat while opening a lot of points for other uses. Fanatics have always been fun to play though, so it really comes down to what you're after.
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Post by Silverwarlock »

actually come to think of it the O&G army I have lost to most recently had all orc blocks

for the pipes you can also make it pipes + 1 hit wunda on the great cave squig ... then you need to find 10 points though
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Post by Ant »

It only takes one turn of bad luck and frustration on your part and you'll quickly turn that line to the much hated fanatic slingshot, gathering the hate of all Warhammer players everywhere.

Except the fanatic slingshot is illegal in 7th. it now says in the brb that no model can move further than it's move rate, a line that wasn't in 6th.

I think the main argument against nets in NGs is simply the cost. What I want from my NG units is a cheap missile threat with ranks to add to a combat if needeed along with the threat of fanatics. Mine are only going to be 20 strong so the way I see if if they get charged the'll be dead nets or no nets. I want 'em cheap and cheerful and paying 35 pts for nets doesn't fit that critera.
Nets are great for a big units with a character that aims to get into combat though. I've seen Skarsnik being used to good effect in a netter unit.

I love the magic items too. No other magic item lists in the game give you a reason to consider taking just about everything. I find it very hard with the orc list to decide what to take and what to leave at home.
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Ant wrote:Except the fanatic slingshot is illegal in 7th. it now says in the brb that no model can move further than it's move rate, a line that wasn't in 6th.


That line doesn't mean what you think it does. Wheels are always measured from the outer model of the front rank and the guys in the back may end up moving more than they're supposed to. Basically it comes down to bad game design.

If you disagree with me try telling a bretonnian player to start measuring the wheels of his lance formations of the outer model on the back rank. You'll probably end up with rather strong opposition (in addition to it being next to impossible to measure in the first place since the guy in the back rank is moving, for example, a quarter of a circle in a 90 degree wheel - now tell me how the hell am I supposed to measure that with a red stick?). The difference is quite big. If you measure a 9 knight lance making a 90 degree turn the way it has always been done in Warhammer it's about 2,5" (might not make too much sense but at least it's simple). If you start measuring that with the way you're suggesting it's somewhere around 7" but it's rather hard to tell exactly. I really suggest not going down that road and just biting the bullet when it comes to oddities like the slingshot.

The line which you talk about really really shouldn't say models but units. It has caused much confusion and Bretonnian lances make the best example of why it has been worded with the brains still on the lunch break.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

The Bad and Broken Moon Tribe

Black Orc Warboss – heavy armour, boar, shield, Ulag’s Akrit Axe & Bigged’s Kickin Boots

Goblin Big Boss – wolf, spear, shield and the Brimstone Bauble

Level 2 Goblin Shaman – chariot, scroll, Itty Ring
Level 2 Night Goblin Shaman – 2 scrolls

5 Spider Riders – standard and bows
10 Goblin Wolf Riders – spears, shields, full command
20 Night Goblins – full command, 3 fanatics
20 Orcs – full command, shields
20 Orcs – full command, shields

20 Black Orcs – full command, Gork’s Waaagh Banner, shields
6 Orc Boar Boys – full command, Banner of Butchery
9 NG Squig Hoppers
Goblin Rock Lobber

4 Trolls

2249pts

That's my initial list then. I see the Black Orc Warboss sitting in one of the Orc units, and the Goblin Big Boss sitting in the other. I decided against nets on my NGs, choosing instead to favour the fourth Troll. I see the Trolls as an alternate unit for the Goblin Big Boss. Ought to raise few eyelids I suspect.

I chose the Rock Lobber over Spear Chukkas coz I like the idea of having a beter chance of actually doing some damage in the shooting phase.

The Wolf Riders are there as a combat resolution generator with a long range flanking charge potential.

I'm thinking that I have the composite elements to take on the big 3 - Lizards, Bretts and Wood Elves. Certainly the style of lists we see here in the UK anyway.

So what do you guys think? Any comments or questions on why I have chosen as I have?
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Post by Silverwarlock »

I actually have quite a few questions ...

first the wolves, you say they are a combat res generator, that implies another unit in the fight, and almost all your units have better static CR

if they are for flanking, why not 2 units of 5

the one hit wunda could be nice on the goblin, to hunt monsters or add a few kills

a BO warboss in a 20 pack of orcs seems like he will not keep rank bonus long (due to animosity and the hits), I would try to increase them to 25-30

the 3 fanatics I have explained in a previous post, most of the time they are just as efficient with only 2 of them

the spider riders seem like they can be killed by fast, light units (like flyers or fast cav) and might give away that banner in doing so

there too I see little interest in the banner as they will need to combo charge and your other units have banners

thats about it, if you could explain tose points it might help understand the list (mainly those wolves lol)
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Post by Dark Alliance »

SilverWarlock wrote:I actually have quite a few questions ...

first the wolves, you say they are a combat res generator, that implies another unit in the fight, and almost all your units have better static CR

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the book it states that if they are equipped with shields "they are no longer classed as fast cavalry", consequently they get rank bonus. Thus with this set up I have the following potential:- rank, flank, banner and outnumber. Even without the flank charge I have 3 static combat resolution on a unit with an 18" march. Ought to be good for some impressive manouvering methinks.

if they are for flanking, why not 2 units of 5

See above. I like the outnumber bonus as well, and they have much more resilience with that 4+ save! :twisted:

the one hit wunda could be nice on the goblin, to hunt monsters or add a few kills

I want him to be cheap and cheerful

a BO warboss in a 20 pack of orcs seems like he will not keep rank bonus long (due to animosity and the hits), I would try to increase them to 25-30

Point made, assuming I fail it. He adds +2 to unit strength remember, so that gives a little extra leeway. He may not always join them, it's not set in stone. He'll probably be there when facing shooty armies, or when the next turn charge is more important than the loss of a few models.

the 3 fanatics I have explained in a previous post, most of the time they are just as efficient with only 2 of them

the spider riders seem like they can be killed by fast, light units (like flyers or fast cav) and might give away that banner in doing so

Against other light units it give them +1 to the static CR, but mostly it's in keeping with my desire to have lots of banners and command models in the list. There are practical implications with it too, when going up against small sized opponents - war machines / flyers / scouts / waywatchers / skinks etc

there too I see little interest in the banner as they will need to combo charge and your other units have banners

thats about it, if you could explain tose points it might help understand the list (mainly those wolves lol)
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Post by Silverwarlock »

alright then

not standard but good to go ;)

remember to post some form of reports please :p
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Post by Ant »

I have a suggestion about the general's placement (from my own plan for a 2k list). Put him in the trolls. This means that the trolls automatically get the d6 move forward when you call a Waagh; a great way to get a decent charge range or for making sure stupidity doesn't ruin a charge on something close. works better if there were 5 trolls since you'd get a look out sir too but I think it's definitely worth considering.

The list looks fairly solid though. The only things I don't like about it are the boar boys and the gobbo hero. I can't see the brimstone bauble doing enough to be worth the points and hero slot. I much prefer the One Hit Wunda. I think it will do a similar thing ore reliably, and it can be used for chariot smashing! The Boar boys I just see as too expensive and I feel that the banner of butchery is wasted on a unit that isn't strength 5. Personally I don't think I would take this unit at all. I can see why it's there though since there's all that other fast stuff. I think you will be much better suited with the warbanner for this unit.

Oh and I recently found out that black orc heroes on chariots are really nasty if you ever fancy trying that out (George had 2 and a lord- thy seem to go through chaos trolls like butter!).
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

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Post by Dark Alliance »

Ant wrote:I have a suggestion about the general's placement (from my own plan for a 2k list). Put him in the trolls. This means that the trolls automatically get the d6 move forward when you call a Waagh; a great way to get a decent charge range or for making sure stupidity doesn't ruin a charge on something close. works better if there were 5 trolls since you'd get a look out sir too but I think it's definitely worth considering.

I had thought about this too. You, obviously realising why the Trolls are there ;)

The list looks fairly solid though. The only things I don't like about it are the boar boys and the gobbo hero. I can't see the brimstone bauble doing enough to be worth the points and hero slot.

This is my modelling side coming in here, I have the figure already now and he will be one of the focal points. As for the item, I get more attacks with the bauble, coz lets face it he is going to die... Imagine the potential that item has if he is in the unit of Trolls :twisted:

I much prefer the One Hit Wunda. I think it will do a similar thing ore reliably, and it can be used for chariot smashing!

The Boar boys I just see as too expensive and I feel that the banner of butchery is wasted on a unit that isn't strength 5. Personally I don't think I would take this unit at all. I can see why it's there though since there's all that other fast stuff.

I was thinking about stripping everything out of this unit which gives me 63pts to place elsewhere, and makes this a somewhat sacrificial, early threat unit instead. Used to weaken the enemy line ahead of the infantry blocks going in.

What do you think?

What to spend the points on?

Maybe pinch a few others and put in a Doom Diver?


I think you will be much better suited with the warbanner for this unit.

Oh and I recently found out that black orc heroes on chariots are really nasty if you ever fancy trying that out (George had 2 and a lord- thy seem to go through chaos trolls like butter!).

Assuming he beat you then?

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Post by Silverwarlock »

if you are dropping everything off them, why not drop the unit to 5 man (it is still good for flanking or attacking weak units)

then you get 85 points, so you can get a doom diver, or make the NG shaman a normal goblin and give him a chariot (the idea of a US 5 goblin chariot is pretty scary)

another quick thing on the trolls, you could give the baubles goblin guzzlas battle brew (while dropping the baubles) and start him in the trolls

the negative effect is useless on trolls, and trolls with frenzy and hatred just sounds insane, you could also add in the wunda for chariot hunting given you have extra points

this does however implies loosing the baubles, so if the modelling requires baubles that will not work (though a goblin chugging battle brew might look just as messed up as one exploding with the baubles)
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Post by Ant »

Dark Alliance wrote:
Ant wrote:

The Boar boys I just see as too expensive and I feel that the banner of butchery is wasted on a unit that isn't strength 5. Personally I don't think I would take this unit at all. I can see why it's there though since there's all that other fast stuff.

I was thinking about stripping everything out of this unit which gives me 63pts to place elsewhere, and makes this a somewhat sacrificial, early threat unit instead. Used to weaken the enemy line ahead of the infantry blocks going in.

What do you think?

What to spend the points on?

Maybe pinch a few others and put in a Doom Diver?


I dunno about this idea. George has been using a naked boar unit and it has seemed pretty useless so far (but then again it doesn't fit in his list and he hasn't worked out how to use the unit either). I think if you are going for a boar unit they need a bit of combat res unless they are savage orcs (that's the route i'd go down if I was using boar boyz). combined with a bsb on chariot or summat they'll be quite natsy. Personally though I'd much rather have a small unit (about 8 ) of black orcs with Noggs banner myself; much more reliable, cheaper and hit much harder. And with Waagh not too much slower either! doom divers are cool though.

I think you will be much better suited with the warbanner for this unit.
Oh and I recently found out that black orc heroes on chariots are really nasty if you ever fancy trying that out (George had 2 and a lord- thy seem to go through chaos trolls like butter!).

Assuming he beat you then?

Yep, the Great Unclean One's unit went pop so he got a massecre! We decided to carry on though to see what would've happened if I didn't pop and I got a minor. The second game was a draw. I think we've finally found a list that George can use well though. He didn't make any really stupid mistakes at all in either game!
Last edited by Ant on Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 08madelf »

I agree with Ant-the boar boyz are too small in that number. dismount the warboss, upgrade him to a black orc boss and put him with the black orcs. This will create a solid centre. Also split the wolf riders in to 2 units of 5.

Ask me about any orcs and gobbos questions at Stephenrnewman@aol.com
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

SilverWarlock wrote:the negative effect is useless on trolls, and trolls with frenzy and hatred just sounds insane


It only works on the bearer, not the unit.

08madelf wrote:dismount the warboss, upgrade him to a black orc boss and put him with the black orcs


There's no reason to dismount him even if he runs with the black orcs.
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Post by Rasputinii »

@08madelf: Thats not how we do things round here. When making suggestions we back them up with reasons and where possible examples. Else its just pointless advise. Furthermore the Warboss already is BO. Also, you might wanna consider revising the attitude, it reads as being quite arrogant, which is never good.

@Garry: I dunno. Its a bit dull aint it? I mean, blocks here, blocks there, few goblins on mounts over there and some trolls. Its a bit conventional looking is what I mean to say. The nice sized unit of trolls and the big wolfy units are the only thing that really stands out as being a bit different. Its not necessarily a bad thing, and doesn't mean it won't work, but its a bit borring compared to what you can do with the list. I don't mean to come off as rude, and I hope you understand what I am trying to say and know that it aint rude. I was just expecting something a bit more Avante Garde and different. Something a bit boundry pushing and odd. Exciting even. Perhaps its just after lookin at some of the more manic things that Ant is doign with his lists this one is a bit disapointing to view. Again that doesn't mean it won't work and work well, but like, the fact the thing people have only picked up on is the 10 Strong Wolves (a nice unit) shows that its not really boat pushing out mania.

So, hmm. yeah. Seems nice enough, just a bit conventional. Thats the word I have been looking for. Conventional, not dull or borring. It also seems that you through out alot of the more madder ideas that were suggested earlier and that you seemed keen on before.

I dunno. Ignore me.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Having mad ideas is one thing, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will actually be any good. The problem I have, is that until I actually have enough models to start playing a game, it is difficult to be certain which way to go.

I may be a bit mad but I'm not stupid, and after all it's all in how you play the game...

@ Ant: Thanks for the comparison to George...

I hear what you say about the Boars, but as a unit that can quickly march into the face of the enemy, either full on, or more preferably up a flank, I think they will still have the desired effect.

@ Ras: My first instinct was an all mounted Goblin list btw...
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

How about swapping the Boar Boyz for Savage Orcs Boar Boyz. Run them down a flank and support with the spider riders and let the 2A Boars do the killing.

It can also lure your opponent to flee baiting them with only a champion/mus and the still hit hard enough.

cheers rob
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Post by Silverwarlock »

ignore my comment on battle brew, I must have been on crack (if it affected the unit for 15 points ... yeah well ...)

I do like Ant's idea of a small black orc unit, it stays with the infantry and the WAAGH makes them quite nice

with noggs they actually can really hit hard too (that is ... 3 S5 WS 4 attacks per model ... plus 4 WS 5 S 5 attacks from the boss, can do more damage than the boar boys)

I personnaly think the mounted goblin list would be more fun for you and your opponents, and given what you have done with dark elves I'm sure you could make it quite effective

a unit of goblin wolf riders with a BSB with WAAAGH banner, and the general goes 18+2D6 charge on WAAAGH turn ... that is actually pretty silly lol (though quite probably impractical in a battle as they have a great tencdancy to flee)
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Dark Alliance wrote:My first instinct was an all mounted Goblin list btw...


Wolf Rider armies were quite hot when the 6th ed O&G book came out. If someone's shocked to see DA's 10 Wolf Riders you should have been around when people were pushing in units of 20-25 with full command and armour. A unit like that gets a full +5 static combat res (always outnumbering) and is basically played like an infantry unit... with 2 attacks each and an 18" charge :D With full gear each one of them is only one point more expensive than a Witch Elf.

I have no idea how it would play out with the new book. The armies disappeared when they couldn't keep up with the power creep of the later books and there weren't all that many of them to begin with since it's hell to collect and paint. Magic's not as good as it was before but then again not everyone run a lord level shaman in their armies back then either. It could be interesting to try out.
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Post by The golden arrow »

Wolfrider hordes are really cool and can be rather effective too. To bad you can't have double goblin heroes anymore, but you can still get cool combos (none except a goblin hero, and especially a bsb, to have 6 strength 5 attacks)
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Post by Gnosis »

BloodTemplar wrote:
The Golden Arrow wrote:but you can still get cool combos (none except a goblin hero, and especially a bsb, to have 6 strength 5 attacks)


Did I understand correctly, a goblin bsb with 6 Str 5 attacks? Care to explain?


I really wouldn't know either. The closest I can get to it is 5 Str 5 attacks, with Bigged's Kicking Boots and Martog's Best Basha.
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Damnation wrote:I really wouldn't know either. The closest I can get to it is 5 Str 5 attacks, with Bigged's Kicking Boots and Martog's Best Basha.


And that's for Goblin Warboss, he was talking about a bsb. Or where do you get 5 attacks for bsb (3 base + 1 boots)?

Shaga's screamin sword, maybe? But that's quite situational.
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