LOTR parallels to WHFB

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Lord anathir
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Post by Lord anathir »

Ilokir wrote:
Prince of Arnheim wrote:I also look at Warhammer as being the completed version of Tolkiens fantasy universe.
I don't know if you noticed yet, but Warhammer and Lotr are not the same. There even isn't a connection. Sure, GW was inspired a lot by the books of Tolkien, but Tolkiens elves are not the elves from GW. The Dark Elves, as referred to in Lotr are outcasts. Elves who never saw the light of the trees. They blame the newcomers for taking their lands..

Prince of Arnheim wrote:I also think it is interesting that DE in Warhammer are located in the same as Arda in LOTR.
Arda is the entire world in Lotr, perhaps you mean Valinor?

Prince of Arnheim wrote:
Perhaps he is making some sort of prophecy.....
It is not entirely clear what you mean by this. ..



you're pretty much correct... but there is one connection: is more or less the appearance of elves.. ie, elves in fantasy (taken from lotr) are tall, full boddied, pointy eared, keen eyed, long hair, etc etc. and NOT, as Santa's elves are; short, etc, etc.

Also a few other things, but nothing serious: wfb wood elves and athel loren parallel alot of laurelindorenan. Alot of names too: Malekith=Maeglin is all i think of at the moment though.

Tolkien wrote his books before ww2 yes, but we all have to admit there is some uncanny connection between the two. Maybe he was just changing around ww1.

the wfb map is kind of a mix of an older world. You have atlantis in the middle (ulthuan) and america and europe on either side.


And a history lesson on aragorn.... i wrote this blurb a while ago when i was talking about the grey elves and Thingol, but aragorn comes into this:

When Illuvatar created the world and sent the ainur to build the world and make it fair, he created the firstborn in arda. The ainur wanted the eldar to live with then in valinor, so they asked all the elves to travel the length of middle earth and cross the ocean. *most* of the elves were willing, so off they went. Out of the three groups of elves that journeyed across middle earth, the vanyar, noldor and teleri, ALL of the vanyar and noldor travelled across the ocean to valinor. Not all of the teleri decided to travel however. Some didnt listen at all to the summonings (the dark elves). Some did, but stopped on their way because one of their lords, Elwe Singollo (later known as Thingol) met one of maiar (a weaker version of an ainur... gandalf, sauron were maiars), Melian, who ensarred him in a binding spell released him only after the ships carrying the elves left the earth. Some of the teleri stayed behind to look for him. With these elves, Thingol and Melian founded the kingdom of Doriath. Their people were the GREY ELVES. (thats out of pure memory so it might not be 100% correct). These elves branched out into the lothlorien and mirkwood elves in the 3rd age. Celeborn, king of lothlorien was a kinsman of Thingol. His wife Galadirel is not, she is the last of the Noldor nobility of the house of Finwe left alive in the third age that led the Noldor into exile in the first age. Sister of Finrod Felagund Lord of Nargothrond, daughter of Finarfin, mother of Celebrian (sp?) who marries Elrond, etc, etc. She is not High Queen of the noldor on middle earth because the kingship of the Noldorim does not run through her father's line but through her uncle's (Fingolfin's). Note that the kingship does not run through the line of the oldest son's (Feanor) house but through Fingolfin's house because of the burning of the ships at... losgar(?). Maedhros the eldest son of Feanor repents their actions after Feanor's death and willingly gives the kingship to Fingolfin. Fingolfin's sons were Turgon, King of Gondolin and Fingon, King of Hithlum. Turgon's daugther was Idril who married Tuor (a man) who's son was Earendil. Earendil's sons were Elrond and Elros. So Elrond chooses to become an Elf and Elros chooses to become the first King of Numenor after the downfall of Morgoth. Elrond's daugther is Arwen who marries Aragorn, King of Gondor and Arnor, Wielder of the Blade reforged, Elessar, The ElfStone, Direct descendant of Elros through the 2nd and 3rd ages. Now, back to our original subject, Thingol. Thingol's daughter was Luthien, who married Beren. Their son was Dior Elluchil, who's daughter was Elwing, wife of Earendil. So, to cap off the history lesson, Aragorn has high elven (noldorim), grey elven (sindar), maiar, and human blood in him. Not to mention he is Elrond's great, great, great, great x a large # Nephew, AND son-in-law. Finally, (even though it doesnt matter that much), id like to draw attention to the men that were involved in the marriages of elves and men in the first age; Beren and Tuor. Beren is the son of Barahir and descendent of beor (proof of this is aragon's ring... named Barahir's ring that was a gift from Finrod Felegund, son of Finarfin, son of Finwe for saving his life in battle). Tuor is son of Huor of the house of Hador of Dor'lomin. So, not only does aragorn have human blood, but he has blood of the foremost houses of the edain; the houses of Beor and Hador.
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Quatters
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Post by Quatters »

While the WHFB map is roughly based on the real world so is Tolkein's world.
The Shire represents England, Mordor is Turkey, Gondor is Italy, can't remember Rohan, but they represent a more medieval view of Europe, where danger always came from the East, hence Mordors position.

Also with the WHFB world, Albion is the UK, I love the description fo how it constantly rains and is so depressing. Gold. Most of the others are very thinly veiled counterparts, Nippon is Japan?!?! Well duh.
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Post by Minsc »

While the WHFB map is roughly based on the real world so is Tolkein's world.
The Shire represents England, Mordor is Turkey, Gondor is Italy, can't remember Rohan, but they represent a more medieval view of Europe, where danger always came from the East, hence Mordors position.


Not quite true.

While Tolkiens Middle Earth indeed is somewhat based on the real world (or more: Europe), he did not put them in their correct geographic position.

The WFB World is very based on the real world:

Naggaroth = Canada
Lustria = South America, mostly the djungels
Ulthuan = Atlantica (sp?)
Albion = England
Empire = Germany (German-Roman Empire anyone?)
Brettonia = France
Athel Lorén is sort of the Schwartzwald Forest, lying between German/Empire and France/Brettonia
Italy also had a 'land' in WFB, but I've forgotten it atm
Tomb Kings = Egypt, however theyre out of geographic place in WFB
Norse = Nordic
Dwarfs and Skaven live under earth, and don't need any countries per se.
Cathay = Kina (Cathay is a old word for Kina as well)
Nippon = Japan
Ogre Kingdoms = Tibet
etc
Last edited by Minsc on Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Quatters
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Post by Quatters »

Tolkein only put them in rough geographical positions, it's not that accurate.

Estalia is Italy and Tilea is Spain.
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Post by Fingol darkwater »

I'm going to split this topic since I think it warrants it's own discussion. If you want to go back to talking about the video I helped Death Prince made, go back to the other thread. Otherwise, carry on about LOTR and the WHFB fantasy settings.
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Post by Prince of arnheim »

Has anyone else noticed that the Warhammer World seems to be an exageration of what our own world woudl look like if there a global warming or flood so to say.

Has anyone else noticed that Dark Elves are also based on pre-Irish civilization when the Celt Tribes used to be very warlike and sacrifical.

Perhaps Tolkien was symbolising. The Elves going to and from Vailnor could represent the great migrations that happenned before the World Wars. This would make sense because he would have known about them as he was alive around this time. Heck he probably looked at a map of North America, turned it sideways a bit, and gotten his first idea for Middle Earth from there.

You can do it to. All you neeed is Google Earth. It is amazing how much Canada looks like NW of ME and the SW States look like Mordor almost perfectly.

He was totally making a prophecy. The guy was a genious. I realise something new everytime I read the LOTR.
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Post by Rasputinii »

Albion is based on England to some extent, but so is Ulthuan - originally. The whole elf thing is a bit British Empirey and very much ties in with the two Warhammer inventor's own patriotism. The Asur are like the British, a superior and noble race (not saying its true, but so the story goes). Like the british they once ruled the wave and had a grande grande empire, and places all over the place. The whole druchii/naggaroth is a far more stylish and exciting version of the America's War of independance. And thus the Ulthuan Naggaroth thing was initally based on England and America from a British point of view, dressed up with alot o fantasy and stuff. So when tinking England don't just think albion.
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Post by Fingol darkwater »

I can see where a lot of English influence would be put on Ulthuan and how the uppety Nagarythians could symbolize Americans, but even just looking at it's location I would say it's straight up Atlantis.

Ancient civilization more advanced than that of humans, slowly sinking isle, magical paradise, it all fits.
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Post by Garluch »

I can see where a lot of English influence would be put on Ulthuan and how the uppety Nagarythians could symbolize Americans, but even just looking at it's location I would say it's straight up Atlantis.


I dont know much history, but didnt loads of Englishmen worshipping oother gods go to america to be "free"?
This reflects Nagarythe worshipped Khaine and some of Vauls preists followed them?
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Post by Kaihlik »

Albion = England

You mean those kilt wearing, whiskey drinking, cleymore weilding English we hear so much about in Medieval history :? .
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Post by Rasputinii »

Albion not scottish. Its druid. Its more like the island of Anglesea (SP?) durring roman invasion if you want to be really specific.

@Fingol: The location of Ulthuan is further evidence of it being Briton, or rather an English patriots inflated version of theBritish isles. You will also note Atlantis was both under the sea and not real. So it can't be in the exact location of atlantis nor can' it be that accurate a depiction of Ulthuan. As say what you like about the Asur - they aint Fishmen.
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Post by Fingol darkwater »

I know Atlantis wasn't real, but according to legend it was right outside of the mediteranean in the Atlantic Ocean, exactly where Ulthuan is on the WH map. Also, Atlantis supposedly sank and Ulthuan is sinking.
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Post by Eldacar »

Fingol is correct, more or less. While the elves are based in part on Hellenistic civilisation, the location of Ulthuan is almost a confirmed Atlantis match - a continent in the middle of the ocean. While the exact location of Atlantis can still be debated, it is usually an island-continent somewhere in the Atlantic ocean (note the name Atlantic ;) ).

As say what you like about the Asur - they aint Fishmen.

No, because that would require them to be men, when they're clearly elves. :P
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Post by Lordofthenight »

Not to mention that in legend, Atlantis is also generally seen as being in the shape of a ring, or a series of rings. Ulthuan also is in a ring shape (or a horseshoe at least).
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Post by Holt »

Ulthuan also is in a ring shape (or a horseshoe at least).


I always saw it as a curled up dragon, atleast thats how it looks in the DE army book.
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Post by Kir »

Has anyone else noticed that Dark Elves are also based on pre-Irish civilization when the Celt Tribes used to be very warlike and sacrifical.

i thought more of aztecs and phoenicians, who had no guns, were highly developed, and had sacrificing to gods(aztec) ad children sacrifice(death night?, phoenicians)[/quote]
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Post by Getwisteerd »

Aztec = lizardmen.
the names, the temples, the human sacrifices and the ways they see their gods (in animal shapes) are all very Aztec. So I disagree that the dark elves are Aztec. I don't know that much about the phoenicians though.

Personally, I have no idea on what the Dark elves are based, it might be that they are simply a result from the high elves and not based on a culture like many of the other armies.
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Post by Draknir »

Quatters wrote:Estalia is Italy and Tilea is Spain.


Actually Estalia is Spain and Tilea is Italy.
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Post by Ranzadule »

Let's not leave off the Melniboneans and other Moorcock influence.

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Post by Drek »

Fingol Darkwater wrote: Ulthuan is sinking.


Good. Serves them right.
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