Best fast cavalry ?

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Agifem
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Best fast cavalry ?

Post by Agifem »

I've read a few times that our dark riders compete for the best fast cavalry in the game. But a few times as well, i've read that the asrai fast cavalry is pretty good as well, or even better. I'm convinced dark riders are an excellent unit. But i can't understand what they have that's superior to every other fast cavalry. Especially imperial and asrai. Could someone provide me with answers on that matter ?
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Post by Daeron »

They are not the fastest (Slaneesh has 10"), they are not the only core fast cavalry, they are not the only ones to have Ld8, they are not the only ones to shoot well (eg: Empire is better).

Previous discussions, however, concluded that our DR's are some of the best because:
- they come at a fair price
- with Ld8 and a Mus they are dependable
- they are core choice (this being the biggest pro)
- they are fast, 9"
- they can shoot rather well, for a fair price
- they are one of the most mobile units in our army

All together we can include several of these for an affordable prize both pointwize and in unit choice. Being one of our mobile units and being dependent on mobility, they make an important element in our army, more than in any other army I think.
So... are they superior? not solely by definition and stats!
But I believe our army can exploit DR's better than most armies exploit their fast cavalry.

Want proof?
Check this little topic I made (quite basic though),
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=49069
And that is just the beginning. Check the Tactical sticky,
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=45534
which is loaded with a lot of tactical stuff. You'll notice DR's appear quite often in them :)
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Post by Amarel »

DR can be bought cheaply - Glade Riders have no option not to take a bow (and have no light armour) so automatically cost the same as RxB'ed DR's - and aren't Immune to Psychology - Wild Riders are - so can fulfil all the roles you need them for.
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Post by Taint »

DR can be bought cheaply - Glade Riders have no option not to take a bow (and have no light armour) so automatically cost the same as RxB'ed DR's - and aren't Immune to Psychology - Wild Riders are - so can fulfil all the roles you need them for.


Sorry mate i don't get that post, yes DR can be bought cheaply but DR, GR and WR are not immune to psychology.

I love dark riders however glade riders just about get my vote as they can move through woods with no penalty and never take penalties to hit for moving and shooting. Now that Empire have lost the fusilae rule with their pistoliers they are no longer the best in the game, though they would have got my vote before the new army book release.

DOW fast cavalry also kick ass and point for point are definately in the running for best fast cavalry title.
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Post by The_everchosen »

I think they're so good because of the army they're in. Dark elves would be seriously weakened by losing DR, but WE could survive with no GR and pistoliers are certainly not a must-have like DR.
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Post by Arisos »

Wild Riders are immune to psycholgy and thus can not flee.
Not a good thing for fast cav.

The Itp is a part of their forest spirit rules..

DOW fast cav is the indeed the best overall fast cav.
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Post by Rork »

I'd say that wild riders and mounted daemonettes aren't "proper" fast cavalry. They're more mobile shock cavalry - they are not designed to bait or distract - everything about them is geared towards attacking (beyond the ItP).

Dark Riders and Marauder horsemen are some of the best fast cavalry. Both have shooty options and are good on the charge (marauders particularly with flails).
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Post by Silverwarlock »

as rork said

if we take into accoutn only the fast cav in the bait and flee role, dark riders are very good, they have better Ld than pistoliers, and come without bows like GR (so are cheaper)

however, as far as fast cav goes, there are other roles, like actually hitting, which dark riders are not meant for (and at which mounted demonettes totally rule, something about a hard hitting unit behind ennemy lines and facing them on turn 2 makes for a nice turn 3 ...)
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Post by Amarel »

Sorry mate i don't get that post, yes DR can be bought cheaply but DR, GR and WR are not immune to psychology.

I don't understand what could possibly have confused you in my post. As I clearly stated, Dark Riders are not Immune to Pyschology, but Wild Riders are (as the have the Forest Spirit special rule).

Edit - Having re-read this response it comes across a little harsher than I intended, apologies.
Last edited by Amarel on Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Shadow dark »

Lets have a lookat the real contenders (leaving out Mounted Daemonettes and Wild Riders)

Glade Riders: No option not to take the largely useless longbow, no light armour, no ability to take cheap fast cav.

Maurauder Horsemen:No leadership 8, and while they can pack more of a punch, to tool them up that way can make them more expensive then our emmisaries of the witch king.

Empire Pistoliers: No ld 8, special choice (i think)

Outriders: No ld 8, special choice, and to use their, admittedly good gun, they cannot move, negating fast cavalries real benefits.
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Post by Asikari »

Dark riders are perhaps the most flexible fast cavalry in the game. They have the maximum armor save you will see on any non-deamon/spirit fast cavalry (a 5+ ward save is better than a 5+ armor save any day). They have the option of carrying a multi-shot weapon with a respectable range, effectively pumping out twice the shots at the same ballistic skill as a comparable non-elf fast cavalry, excellent movement, and the ability to hold their own in a tactically set up close combat. Like almost everything else druchii, they are not the best at any one thing, but can do everything fairly well.
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Post by Getwisteerd »

I agree with shadow dark on most points, with some exceptions

Marauder horsemen are still cheaper than dark riders even when you give them flails, and their champions are actally useful.

Dogs of war light cavalry surely is another contender, they are really cheap (cheaper than, for example, witch elves IIRC) and they still have movement 8 and the fast cavalry rule which are the most important.

Still, in the context of their army, dark riders are probably the most important, but I don't think they're the best.
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Post by Prince of arnheim »

I actually think that Goblin Spider Riders are the best FC out there at the moment. Fear, Poisonous Attacks, and the ability to climb walls is nothing sniff at, infact it makes for quite a deadly combo against specific targets.
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Post by The_everchosen »

I think Tk light horsemen are the best ;)
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

Prince of Arnheim- Spider Riders don't cause fear. The ability to move through terrain is nice though- I wouldn't say they're the best fast cavalry though.

Dark Riders are largely considered the best fast cavalry simply because they are the best all-round, able to fulfill every traditional role Fast Cavalry are supposed to fill. Not only this, but they're above average at every one of those roles, unlike other races fast cav, which can be better at one particular function, but often pay for this in another.

E.g. Glade Riders ignore woods but have worse ranged attacks and no armour, Mounted Daemonettes can't flee, nor can Wild Riders, Marauders have lower leadership and far crappier ranged weapons- not to mention slower horses, the same can be said for Pistolier's but they also have a shorter range, Outriders are move or fire and Dogs of War are mediocre, cheap but take a precious rare slot. Goblin riders have terrible leadership, slower movement and horrible weaponskill- they can also only have shortbows.

Dark Riders are good on the charge, great ranged (2 shots each generally hitting on 4/5's), decent armour save, high movement, good leadership- all the things you want in a fast cav unit. Add to this their perfect integration with the rest of the Dark Elf list and you can understand why people say they are the 'best' fast cavalry. Pretty much everyone of the fast cavalry I listed above can do at least one of those functions excellantly, but none can do them all quite as well the Dark Rider.

Everchosen, TK light horsemen are super terrible!!!...
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Post by The_everchosen »

@ Dancing think of all the great things about Light cavalry:

Not being able to flee
Rubbish on the charge
Low AS
BS 2

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Post by Druchiishootlord »

Now I know that they haven't been mentioned but Mounted Yoemen are a very decent fast cav.

Sure they suffer from the save slower steeds as the Empire, DoW, and Marauders. They suffer from more inferior bows like the DoW and GR. Alone their leadership is absolutely atrocious. It is also true that they take up a special but considering the army they are in that doesn't create a problem, or usually doesn't.

On the bright side if you wanna talk about a dirt cheap fast cav unit you've got it. With their standard kit they come out being cheaper than DR are base. They're peasants and so if you want to give them a standard they aren't goign to give up points for it as well as being able to take a knight's LD. Their AS is also as good DR.

Maybe wishful thinkings but MY are definitely ace in my book when it comes to fast cav.
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

Why have Goblin Wolfboys not been mentioned?? They're cheap, fast, can shoot and have options for a fairly decent armour save.

I've not read their rules in the new book, but I guess the problem really is the fact they have a leadership value that is nearly as badly as a snotling (in fact, thats a pretty bad example as snotlings are psychotic malevolent little gits who refuse to flee ever...:roll:) If you have your general nearby to where they're fleeing from eg. after baiting an enemy unit etc... then their chances of rallying arent really too bad - especially if you have the musician with them too! :D

plus, they're just funny looking ;)

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Post by Danceman »

Marauder horsemen, hands down. They hits as hard as most heavy cavalry and can do everything other fast cavalry can do... and they´re quite cheap as well.

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Post by Kida »

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Post by Rasputinii »

I remember writing a rather long article on why dark riders are crapola, admitidly I came to some wrong conclusions, but I remain adamant that Dark Riders are weak. But that was a slightly different idea. They are poor in combat and high in cost and easy to kill. I want silverhelms.

Whats the best fast Cav?
Not sure, but I think Wolf Riders and Dire wolves are two of the best. I also really like Spider Riders (as much as it pains me to be seen to agree with POA). Marauder Horse are damned awsome. Dark Riders aren't bad, but they don't really do what I want for that cost. At the whole baity malarky give me wolf Riders or Marauder Horse, at dishing out the pain I'll take Marauder Horse (again), Dire Wolves, MDs and WR.

My point has always been that Dark Riders are just very expensive and they are no better at being a bait or redirector then most other fast cav and again for the cost they can't do diddly squat in combat due to their poohy save and the fact they get shot to bitz when posing a threat. They aren't crap, cos we need them, but there is a reason you hardly ever see Reavers in Asur armies, and its because you don't need them with core SHs and a great eagle or two. As far as I am concerned those Dark riders should be 18pts with a Crossbow or 14 without. They just aint good enough to walk around with the price tag they do. Or you could turn them in to medium cavalry and create a decent unit.

Best Fast Cav? Hard to see. But excluding WRs and MDs 'cos they aren't traditional fast Cav I would say its a battle between Wolf Riders and Marauder Horse. And one I wouldn't want to put money on.

EDIT: Wolf Riders Vs Marauder Horse Vs Mounted Yeomen. If it weren't for being special I would give it to the Yeomen. They are awsome.
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Post by Geist »

The best fast cav? Humm I have seen reference to the TK fast cav, but what I did not see was the Tomb Kings Chariots fast cav. That I think is bang on the best buy you can get for any fast cav.
Lets run over the numbers quickly shall we?
120pts for 3 chariots
WS 3 3wounds toughness4 I2 Move8
Attacks
2 horses at WS2 ST3
1 chariot handler attack at WS3 ST3
1 spearman attack as WS3 ST4 (on the charge of course)
d3 impact hits from chariot at ST4

Must be taken in units of 3, so X3 on all above.
Oh and of course Causes fear and immune to psych as well as being fast cav.

Only down side is they cant do the bait and run trick since immune to psych. But given a unit of 3 only cost 120pts, you can sacrifice them for not much loss in much the same way normal fast cav are sacrificed. So there you go. The other really good fast cav.

Almost forgot. They come armed with bows that always hit on 5+
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Post by Mostlyharmless »

the point of fast cav is not to actually get into combat, imho. Fast cav are for baiting and harassment, particularly of already fleeing troops. If you charge an already fleeing infantry unit with dark riders, those poor souls are going to be trampled, doesn't matter how high they roll. fast cav generally don't charge unless you really need the flank and you have a good chance of dealing enough wounds so that the enemy can't fight back. for less than 100 points, you get a unit of high leadership fast cavalry that can run up to the enemy, shout "nah nah nah nah naaaah nah," run away, and do it again. that is why dark riders are superior fast cav. glade riders come close, mostly because they don't take penalties for moving and shooting or moving through the woods.
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Post by Tenebrae »

@Geist: I'm pretty sure that even light chariots aren't fast cav.
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Post by Prince of arnheim »

The last game I played against High Elves saw my 5 Dark Riders(armed with xbows and musician) charge a High Elf chariot in the flank, killing it(it had been wounded by a reaper already) then overkilling and charging into the flank of a unit of 20 HE Spearwarriors, and promptly breaking them only to pursue once again into the flank of a Silver Helm unit.

The combination with the Cauldron of Blood was the only reason they were this effective. Against some other armies this won't work.

Dark Riders are good, but only if you assign them with the right task. They are like every other unit in Warhammer and have both weaknesses and strengths.

I never leave home without them.

So I disagree that Fast Cavlary are only for baiting and harassment. I think they ideally serve to make precisive strikes at weak points in the enemies battle line.

And Ras welcome back, I have missed bugging you!! I'm glad you like Spider Riders. I don't know why the heck I thought they caused fear though. Whoops. Poisonous attacks are great on FC. Just great.
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