Is the Champion upgrade worth it?

Joeb · Post by **Joeb** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:47 pm

In my experience the champion upgrade for a unit doesn't do much and it usually costs as much as a banner - which is much more useful IMO. Particularly in 5 man units I find the champion to be a lot of points spent for just one extra attack and the ability to be challenged, which is a liability against other small units (especially if they have characters in them). Thoughts?

Archdukechocula · Post by **Archdukechocula** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:57 pm

Generally I tend to agree with you, but I do think there are a few exceptions. Basically, if your attacks have a special rule attached to them, I think champions start to make sense, because the premium you pay starts getting its full use. For example, facing a challenge with a warrior generally isn't that useful. However, facing a challenge with an executioner is often a great benefit, as you have a legitimate chance of outright killing a character. And even if you don't, having an extra killing blow attack in the front rank without having to pay for the extra models to widen your frontage is a nice bonus. Witch elves are another obvious example where a unit champion provides a significant boost to the unit. ToK items are great for the unit. Both Witchbrew and Manbane give a significant boost to the unit. Beyond that, I would say the only unit we have that arguably justifies the cost of the champion is the blackguard, mostly because taking a challenge in that case preserves the unit as a whole. With the stubborn ability, and the fragility of the blackguard, that is an important thing.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:58 pm

I agree. There are exceptions (Orc Bosses and Witch Elf Hags come to mind), but generally you are right.

The one excellent thing about Champions, however, is their ability to receive challenges. This can be key when you don't want your character to accept a challenge.

So basically, I only usually buy Champions when there is a character in the unit for them to protect. I view them as bodyguards.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:22 pm

I usually bring champions, people tend to time and time again forget to target them meaning I get some attacks back even if my front rank is mowed down

Post by **Dalamar** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:30 pm

I'm at the state of experimenting right now
Champion always has place in my defensive blocks (20 Warriors or 20 Black Guard)
as for offensive units, standard there isn't that good as they're meant to support my defensive blocks (which have full command), while champion adds that extra attack without expanding frontage.
Banner instead of champion when I have some specific magic banner in mind (soul shadows standard on CoKs comes to mind)
Overall if the unit is meant to support, it goes with no champion
If the unit is meant to support but I also want it to be able to solo charge now and again it goes with champion only
and if the unit is supposed to be leading fights on its own with or without support it goes with full command.

Harabec · Post by **Harabec** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:00 am

I will usually include champions. For offensive units relying on attacks the extra attacks without wider unit, and being able to attack if the rest of the rank is killed is nice. For defensive units relying on static CR, I use the champion to protect other characters and also to challenge enemy powerhouses. In that last role he is being used to preserve ranks and model count for a turn so that the unit is still intact when support arrives.

Crazyhorse · Post by **Crazyhorse** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:15 am

Usually I don't take champions, however if I have the extra points(usually means I forgot something) I will invest in my witch elves or executioners getting a champion. But overall I would say there are better things for you to invest points in.

-crazyhorse

Saint of m · Post by **Saint of m** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:16 am

SOme champions are better then others. With the Kisviel and And andDwarven units, some of them can feild pistlols instead of their normal weapon. OThers get btter weapons (Empire gunners with their sniper rifle and miners with their +3strength great weapon.)

I take them just because, although when it comes to my crossbowmen I'm narrowing it down to just the musician as far as comand groups are concerend.

Lah di d'har · Post by **Lah di d'har** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:53 am

Linda Lobsta Defenda wrote:I usually bring champions, people tend to time and time again forget to target them meaning I get some attacks back even if my front rank is mowed down

i take campions for that reason too, though it has given me problems in the past with newer players. (depending on the player) its lead to a few arugments :roll:

i kinda see there point but thats the rules.. as far as i know at any rate.

genrally i will add champs to most main units. with the exption of the Bloodshade / DR champ. the +1 BS isnt worth it IMO

Akimoto · Post by **Akimoto** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:28 am

for reasons best know to myself i usually run my high sorceress in a unit of warriors, so for that unit, at least, the champion is a must to protect her from challenges if the unit actually gets to combat.

Aside from that it depends on the unit, if its going to be a solid block, then champions are always welcome, if it's something cheap and expendable, it should remain that way.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:19 pm

Can someone point out to me exactly where in the rules is says that Champions can strike back even if the entire front rank is destroyed? I was re-reading the rules on this section last night and didn't quite see where this is stated. Thanks.

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:25 pm

Some units are surely better equipped with champions and others are just useless.

Needed champ is in spears to contain casualties from a charge, witches for manbane, cold ones for gaining another S5 attack, exec for killing blow.

In other units I think champ is no needed: for shades and drs his Bs 5 is not worth the points, Xbows need this Bs and don't get it; on black guard the champ could be usefull in the first turn when charged to contain casualties, but if you're facing an enemy that just kill 4-5 bgs per turn, his 2 attacks are useless becuase you'll be able to take at max 2-3 kills till the end of cc.
At last I don't think that's a big deal getting champion in cosair because you only get 1 attack more, so gaining 50% of overall attacks, and 10 pts could be spent to get another full corsair, that is surely better.

Kheirakh · Post by **Kheirakh** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:58 pm

With any type of warriors, champion is useless: 2 S3 attacks - blah.
With corsairs it's sometimes nice, but it's just 1 S3 attack more.
Dark riders - never!
Executioners: Well, sometimes it's good, in challenges especially: you can make that chaos lord hide in back rank afraid of that possible killing blow..
Witch elves: almost necessary, with manbane or witchbrew.
Shades: never.
Black guard: I would't bother since now there is only one use for BG.
CoKs: Yeah, It's nice, you can tie up wargors and other medicore characters in challenges and get the good armour save, and let your noble or highborn kill the softer troops.

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:02 pm

Warriors No way I'm paying 10pts for an extra S3 attack
Corsairs See above

(Though I have to say my Sorcs generally don't hide in infantry blocks...)

Dark Riders These guys are usually designated Sorc bodyguards. DR flee from close combat if at all possible so again, hardly ever a Herald to be seen.

Shades A tempting Sorc bodyguard IMO, the Bloodshade has seen occasional play, since Shades cannot flee from charges as readily as DR.
Cold One Knights Only after the StB would I consider a Dread. Which isn't that often. But the guy holds his own in challenges due to his 2+ASv.
Witch Elves With 4 (or 5!?) Poison attacks and CoB back up there's the occasional chance at Overkill against enemy Champions. Again, only after the StB. With Witches, 1 extra attack isn't going to matter much anyway, and upgrading becomes expensive pts-wise very quickly.
Executioners The Champion adds to the scare factor of Exes which is why their Champion is by far my favourite. Again, CoB back up helps immensely - challenges are indeed daunting for the mightiest of foes :twisted:

Black Guard Very much yes. Stubborness means the BG could care less about Overkill being inflicted upon their Champion, and my Master has died honorably against all sorts of nastyness in single combat, soaking up wounds that would otherwise have been applied to rank-and-file BG. Situational, but greatly increases the survivability of the unit as a whole.

Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:09 pm

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:Can someone point out to me exactly where in the rules is says that Champions can strike back even if the entire front rank is destroyed? I was re-reading the rules on this section last night and didn't quite see where this is stated. Thanks.

Since wounds need to be allocated to the champ for him to die (they dont carry over unless the unit is wiped out) he will be still standing. meaning he can strike back.

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Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:17 pm

Linda Lobsta Defenda wrote:
GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:Can someone point out to me exactly where in the rules is says that Champions can strike back even if the entire front rank is destroyed? I was re-reading the rules on this section last night and didn't quite see where this is stated. Thanks.

Since wounds need to be allocated to the champ for him to die (they dont carry over unless the unit is wiped out) he will be still standing. meaning he can strike back.

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Linda's got it! Plus it's the same as having a character in the front rank. He/She'll get to strike back even if the front rank it blown up.