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Warhammer and Elitism 
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Rumour Lord of Doom
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:11 pm
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Location: Har Ganeth (Santa Cruz, CA
So, basically in my gaming club last night I saw something that made me cringe deep down in my soul. I was currently about through deployment in a 2250 game against chaos with my BoC when a new player walked in with his army. We had an open table and a person not playing so I suggested that they play a game! The regular at the store started making excuses that he had a class when 5 minutes before he was asking to get the next game against me.

The hobby will die if new people are invited into our little gaming groups. This new hobbyist had read through the rulebook, started painting and already had 1500 points and he was very well, hurt that the regular thought he was so much better that he couldnt teach a rather new person. After seeing this I quickly finished my game and then me and the new guy got a game in but it really makes me wonder if it is like this across the world and how you guys feel about intentional snubbing because someone is new or looks different.

So, do you guys go out of your way to teach the newer members of gaming groups? Do you have a problem with helping a person through their first game? I'm really just looking to find out if it is solely my club doing this because honestly, it really pissed me off. I called him out on it after the night was over due to him being a decent friend of mine and he simple said "I didn't want to waste my time". It was just... ugh a bad expierence.

-Rex

p.s. druchii.net makes a full circle! I swear I remember a topic like this from 2-3 years ago haha

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:33 pm
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Executioner
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In the store, where i play, everyone is friendly. Actually if it wasn't for the boys and girls out there probably i woudn't start playing at all.

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:40 pm
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ive had that problem before with people who have asked what army i have and then declined. I dont play anymore, i just convert and paint now so i dont have ANY problems whatsoever. PERFECT!

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:58 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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its a mix for me, in general if someone comes up even with a small 500pt force we creat a special scenario so that vets can try something new and new guys can try it out at all. But you occasionally get those little brats whose "mummy" bought them loads and they just annoy people. But in general warhammer tends to bring people together, i have seen a goth and a chav, two people so conflicting it's painful, play for 3 hours straight laughing and joking the entire time....

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:41 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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When I gamed at a store, there wer a few times where people seemed skeptical to play someone new to the store. I haven't seen anyone new to the game enter the store looking for help/guidance through one of their first games.

Right now I'm in a gaming club... totally not elitist, but it's at some guy's house and we meet every other Saturday night.. so it's not the ideal place for someone to stumble upon. We recruit and are happy to help people learn. recently, though unfortunately :? , the people there have picked up 40k and so there has been a lot of "learning" games.

Sorry you had to go trhough that Azure... that stuff pisses me off too..
Same thing goes for when I see a power house player consistently take the same list that just dominates... and they're not the best sports about it...

.. oh and people that are waaaaay too critical about an 1/16" on a wheel, wanting to bring a unit back (during the movement phase) and redo the move, someone forgetting to declare a charge before starting to measure movement for another unit, etc...

it really just kills a lot of the game


Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:45 pm
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Beastmaster
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It depends, i'd say.

i went into my local GW store for a Mighty Empires game that I'd scheduled, only to find my opponent setting up a mulitplayer game (3000 or so points per side) with several kids (aged 9-12, perhaps). The kids were obvious newbies and being kids, were setting up in the usual dysfunctional, short-attention-span way that kids do. I watched them for over an hour before they started Turn 1. I told my opponent that I was going to walk my dog, back in an hour or two. When I got back, they were on bottom of turn 2, my opponent was gone. The store manager was playing his army (high elves, with two beautifully painted dragons). Turns out he lost his cool (the kids drove him bonkers) and stormed out of there. He told me that he hadn't intended to play the game, but the manager had "sort of roped me into it, because they're new to the game." The kid with the Empire army was playing with movement trays, didn't even have all the models.

If it had been me, I would hope that noone would have called me an elitist for refusing to play a game like that. I remember when you had to show progress on your modelling/painting or the GW guys wouldn't let you play in the store. I wish we still had that. Druchii don't fight against movement trays.

Your situation was obviously different, but still thought I'd share.

Postscript: Two weeks later the high elf player had his car stolen with his entire Asur army, dragons and all, in the trunk. Poetic justice? You be the judge.

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:52 pm
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Well Our Little Gaming Club in Dover New Hampshire is very open and non elitist. Right now we have a 40K league going on and the LoTR players still have their Ladder league so tablespace is at a premium on Firday Nights.

However Since I started attending Game nights there and later helped them form an offcial club and build 3 new Gaming tables to keep at the store (Rogue trader store not GW). We have had nothing but kick ass good times. Sure there are power gamers, and guys who's armies are impossible to beat. (I think the Eldar Player finally got a Loss so we have no undefeated now)

There was a young fellow who comes in and he's very excited about fantasy. All he had was the 6th edition Orcs form the boxed set and the 7th ed BRB. I was available and Estimated his force at 400pts. (Blackorc bigboss on boar, 16 Arrer boyz, 16 Orc boyz and a chariot) so I took out one sorceress on foot, 6 Dark Riders with RXB's and 12 Spearmen to face him down. (I felt bad kicking his ass he had to be about 10) but he was very receptive to my critique and advise. Came back a month later with hte same army and I put out 5 DR, 10 Spearmen and my Peggy Noble. I gave him a list of magic items to gear up his boss with and he had improved and gotten a few more orcs painted.

I was knee deep in my only league victory with my CSM vs some IG las ttime he came in.... With a GW Army case, a 1,000 point force and the O&G Army book. His dad was listening in last time I played him and I gave him a list of troops that would beef up his army... and the lucky guy has a Birthday in January right after Christmas so he got all his dreams come true.

I always bring a spare fantasy army now even during league nights in case he comes in so i can play him again. Or anyone with fantasy for that matter 40K is frickin boring. (Sadly its my dorfs becuase my army box only fits my 1250pt CSM force and my 3K dorf force... dragons and wyverns take up too much space)


Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:08 pm
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The Exiled One
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I am strongly against any type of elitism.

Quote:
The hobby will die if new people are invited into our little gaming groups.
I hope you meant it the other way around :)

~ Nag

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:14 pm
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I have to agree with Nag.. without new people, it will just die. Like it or not, but playing with new people isn't always fun because they don't know how to play, but you don't have to teach them how to play.

Keep in mind that it's a game and the most important rule of a game is: Having Fun! If you only play to win, then you aren't playing a game. I play to have fun, if I don't like playing with someone, I just don't play with them but I don't stop playing because I have to play with new people.


Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:20 pm
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Rumour Lord of Doom
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Nag: DOH, I GOTTA START PROOFREADING!

As for the rest, it really surprised me. I was actually shocked... and MAD

-Rex

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:26 pm
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I recently moved to England from Poland, miles and worlds away, stepped into local GW store and next gaming night a had my first game with complete stranger. now I'm a regular, yeah it's very open community :D
Playing with newbies is fun too! you don't have to concentrate so much on tactics and do some crazy moves just for the fun of it

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:18 pm
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I did enjoy playing veterans more than anyone as the vets who go to shrewsbury GW were great! we even had a resident staff member who literally looked like a vampire.

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:31 pm
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I remember when I started 7 years ago, whenever I went into my GW I was usually scoffed at cause I was new. It made me quit the hobby for a few years after continual visits like this.
It took a few of my friends taking up the hobby and learning together to get me back in.
Now I 9used to ) work at a hobby shop, after giving demos and teaching new kids I love helping new people.

I basically put it as: "Your not trying to sell warhammer, or even teach them anything, your just showing someone how awesome your hobby is"

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:51 pm
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Hey Dalamar that didn't happen to be a game when your dwarfs battered some dark elves?


Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:13 am
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I would have to say that my first experience playing was very positive. Granted my opponent was a co-worker and also new at the game however we asked the vets ( the Leadership 2 guys at Endgame in Oakland, CA) tons of questions regarding rule verification every time we went there and they were always very helpful and really cool about explaining how things worked. Even with modeling and painting questions.
I have not played there in some time and really miss the great attitudes and good sportsmanship I encountered there.

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:49 am
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What if some people are suppose to be elitists? wouldn't it further the game just as much as if there was someone always playing the new kid on the block?

I think it furthers the game either way; as for elitism, it may actually hurt overall growth if the new people don't find those other people who can show them the way.

Hence there is a time for everything. A time to laugh, a time to cry... a time to be nice and let help the little kid play you and a time to be an elitist and not play anyone except the veterans.

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:33 am
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Depends. While I'm more than willing to help out new players and do games with newer people to seem the grow...sometimes, you really prefer/need to play more experienced people. If I'm tweaking a list for a competitive event, much as I'd like to help the new player, its not much of a test...or helpful. It sounds (and probably is) elitist of me, but I usually use newer players as a chance to try unusual or outlandish things, or generally just play around with lists I'd never get to use otherwise....This is why I pretty much gave up on pickup gaming, and usually know in advance who and what size I'm playing, so I can have the right style of list, and requiste amout of patience saved up....

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:56 am
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It depends what they are like, if they are annoying stupid little people then i will usually quit playing the battle. But if they are actually keen to learn and play then im fine. My currant rate is introducing 7 new gamers into playing the hobby. Funnily enough my friends always direct newbies toward me..........

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:20 am
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Most people at my local store are friendly(ish) towards each other. I usually help people out at my store and offer tactics and what you can use against the enemy army he is facing.

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:46 am
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In my local we have a number of problem cases. One particular player, for example, claims dysnumeracy when his army lists turn out to have exactly 850 points too many troops in them. Conversely I've seen kids who come in, politely get their asses handed to them, take some advice and come back next week to beat all comers in a way that was genuinely enjoyable for all involved. Unfortunately the ratio of retards to decent newbies seems to be heavily slanted in favour of retards.

This leads me to the question: was the person in Azure's anecdote who refused to play familiar with the new player? I know that I have turned down games in reality on the basis of previous knowledge of the player, the army the player was using or simply the sound of their voice. If there's any single factor which would make you just plain not get any fun out of the game then the game is not worth playing. That's an elitist attitude but I really don't care how it's perceived. Given how limited my playing time actually is I have no desire to spend an hour or more listening to a player wax eloquent on the virtues of the emo lifestyle or express wonder at my "conversions" when I use all stock miniatures.

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:07 pm
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Beastmaster

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I have to agree a little with Arq.

Back at the GW store in Gurnee Illinois we had a pair of Brothers... one who played a Chaos Mortals slaanesh list with a lord mounted in a chariot drawn by dragon ogres and useing 100 pts of Demonic gifts and 100 points of Magic Items because one of his magic Items was the sword that gives you the stats of a Greater Demon he thought that meant he was allowed to take the demonic gifts as well... Somehow even with that disgusting points sink he managed to have 3 units of chosen warriors and a unit of chosen knights and another chariot. His brother on the other hand played the Empire gunline with Balthasar gelt and soem wizard with a magic item that grounded flyers. They were both Sore losers, cheaters and piss awfull painters. No one would play them after a couple weeks at the store.


Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:00 pm
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One of the hardest games i played was against a newbe. This was becuase i explained everything to him i was doing and why i was doing it and how he should counter the action. It ended up a winning draw to him but he enjoyed the game and came back next week to play another. He is now a good friend and a good gamer.


Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:17 pm
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Depends. I hate "kiddies" and by that I mean people who cannot speak in a normal level but insists on speaking or near screaming with their high pitched voices. Particularly people who cannot remain calm in general... Sure, I like abit of a laugh, it´s not that just try to keep it down.
Why is this important? Well, there are generally not just you around and if the sound level peaks at one table you´re in for one unbearble experience. That and of course I might actually snap and go a murderous frenzy... so it´s not just for my own sake.

But if my opponent can keep it cool I´ll play anyone, regardless of how "cheesy" the list is. Dont care. Just play :D

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:31 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Nah, I'm the one playing dark elves... and sadly I haven't faced any dwarves around here yet (my nemesis army >.<).

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Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:14 pm
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our club plays in a rogue trader store and the owners let us have free reign remodelling the basement. We have 4 4'x8' tables and a shelf full of terrian down there and we cna squeeze a 4'x5' table at the bottom of the stairs. Upstairs we have another 4'x8' in the sotre by the front window and a 4'x5' by the register. with our current leagues in LoTR and 40K running an dpeople who come in to play strategy board games liek axis and allies it can get quite loud. The basement is not acustically sound. (Am considering installing sound baffles in the ceiling and some walls when we re-wire it for more light)

So I know the feeling when the kiddies get loud. I also have seen a lot of the obnoxious little buggers in other stores, our club is pretty damn good though. A Few Nurglings who use our tables now and then but not bad. I catch a Soda on my clubs table tops I cram my size 11 down some kids throat. God forbid they try to superglue models together on the table tops... thats what card tables are for. So aside from the nurglings... Wargamming is a rewarding experience. You have to accept them though... they buy stuff at the stores that support our hobbies. Store profits drop off... then stores drop off and soon we are living by mail order and then it dwindles down liek the other crappy miniatures games that lack serious support.


Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:22 pm
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