New chaos mortal list in June issue White Dwarf?

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Hali
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Post by Hali »

Something just occured to me. more with respect to Beast of Chaos and Hordes of Chaos, this update is going to completely ruin magic item combinations that we where able to use across the two books. That's nerfed the Beastmen characters as thier magic weapon and armour line up is pretty mediocre to begin with.

@Harabec: Although i can see what they're doing, it leaves the other chaos armies in a real lurch until they get thier new released books. Essentially what we had before was a system in which the armies where ballanced when they could cross over and share lists. Now with this division, although the Demons are ballanced, the other lists are only half written (well to a point, it's not that bad, just inconvienient).

We'll see what this update does for the lists. Hopefully they've thought this through enough to see them through to the new books.
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Post by Voodoomaster »

Well, I got a chance to read with my own eyes the new Chaos list today. Fortunately, I also had my current Armies Book on hand to compare with, and a handy pen and notepad to note down any changes.

Suffice to say that the rumours at the start of this thread appear to be only the tip of the iceberg in terms of lousiness…


GENERAL CHANGES

The list contains no Cultists. No mention of them at all. In fact, there are no more Mortal units added to the very tiny number previously in HoC at all, unless you count the Giant and Hellcannon.

It’s worth adding though, that the new list removes many options for Chaos players, such as Bloodletters, Bestigors, Daemonettes, Great Unclean Ones, Shaggoths, Ogres, Horrors, Screamers, Minotaurs, Nurglings, Dragon Ogres, Bloodthirsters, Tuskgor Chariots, Keepers of Secrets, Centigors, Plaguebearers, Furies, Lords of Change, Flesh Hounds and some other stuff besides. So, you know, a lot.


MARKS

First of all, the Mark of Chaos Undivided is gone.

The Marks have the same effects for Lords, Heroes, Warriors, Knights and Chariots (Daemon Princes are the sole exception). Sorry, don’t have points costs.

Khorne – Frenzy. Proper frenzy that affects mounts, not the bizarre “only exception in the whole of Warhammer” old frenzy they used to have. Dispel dice are gone (no Magic Resistance either).

Nurgle – Fear (no extra wounds)

Slaanesh – Immune to Psychology

Tzeentch – 6+ Ward Save. Sorcerers can choose from any Lores in the Warhammer rulebook.

And whilst we’re on the subject of Lores… the Lores of Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are gone. Non-Tzeentch Sorcerers can choose from Fire, Death and Shadow. I was hoping they’d retain some level of coolness and bring back the option for Heavens (like in the old Ravening Hordes list), but alas, that would be too imaginative.

The Mark of your General has no effect upon Army Composition and units can be mixed in the army freely. Feel free to abuse the Chaos background as you see fit.


LORDS

The list has three Lord options, and indeed three options for Heroes, Core, Special and Rare too. 15 options in the whole army…Christ…

Chaos Lords have the same statline as currently and, as with every character in the list bar Daemon Princes, are 10 points cheaper. Nothing much to say here except that their weapons options are preposterously expensive – 20 points for a great weapon, 15 for a halberd, extra hand weapon and flail. The award for “most amusingly and blisteringly stupid decision of the list” goes to the person who decided to make a shield cost 15 points for a Lord, when the Enchanted Shield is still available for 10…

Exalted Sorcerers are 10 points cheaper and use the Lores mentioned previously.

Both these two have access to a Chaos Dragon, which has exactly the same stats and points cost as present. Breath weapon attacks have been tweaked though – one is Strength 3, the other is Strength 2 and Armour Piercing.

Chaos Steeds are unchanged. Daemonic Mounts (which now stand in for Juggernauts, Boob-Snakes and Discs too…sigh…) have changed dramatically in line with the Daemon’s list – same cost and statline as currently, but with only one Wound, +1 Initiative and a drop in Ld (bizarrely). Characters also have the option of a Chariot for +100 points, same as normal entry except they displace one of the crew.

Daemon Princes are still in, but without Daemonic Gifts. Stats the same except they have Initiative 7 for some reason. Daemonic is out, Immune to Psychology, Stubborn, 5+ Ward Save and Magical Attacks are in. 50 points more expensive than they currently are. Marks as below:

Khorne – Frenzy, Magic Reistance. Think it’s MR 1, but I’m not certain, sorry.

Nurgle – Toughness 6.

Slaanesh – Always Strikes First

Tzeentch – 4+ Ward


HEROES

Exalted Champions are Toughness 5. It’s a stupid decision since, combined with the points drop of 10, it makes upgrading Aspiring Champion to Exalted for +20 points an even more no-brainer choice than it is now.

Sorcerors drop 10, as do Aspiring Champions. As currently, only Aspiring Champions can be a BSB, which is the only possible reason to consider taking one (especially since they can’t ride Daemonic Steeds either). Both Champions continue the trend of ridiculously costed weaponry.


CORE

Warriors of Chaos drop to 12 points in a rare instance of Games Developer sanity. No other changes that I can tell, except that ANY unit can take a Magic Banner under 50 points (which, as you’ll see from the Magic Items section, isn’t really an advantage…) and Chosen upgrades cost +5 points a model now.

Marauders are the same except commands are more expensive, since lord knows that +10 points for +1 Attack was so game-breakingly unbalanced right now. Warhounds are unchanged, still don’t take up Core, which means you HAVE to include Marauders or Warriors on foot in your army. Why do you hate me GW?


SPECIAL

Knights are now Special and cost 5 points less a model than before, with a Chosen upgrade now + 10 points. Any units can take Magic Banners now. I would have liked to see S4 with a very expensive option for a Lance (so, you know, people can use their old models) but what’re you gonna do.

Chariots get a large points break and cost 100 points. 2 can be taken as one Special choice (cos that’s far less unbalanced than Goblin Chariots, apparently).

Marauder Horsemen are now Special. Apparently, I must be very stupid, because to my puny intellect this seems like an incomprehensibly moronic decision. Throwing axes cost only 1 point and the option for Shields is gone. Feel free to continue buying shielded horsemen in the shops though.


RARE

Giants and Hellcannons are in, with Hellcannons taking up two Rare choices. Apparently, the team at WD decided that too much space in the article was taken up with the sheer multitudes of other units in the Chaos list to justify printing the rules for these. Which means you’ll have to buy Storm of Chaos and Beasts of Chaos to use them. Yay.

Spawn are here too, same points, same rules, except the option to customise your Spawn to make them interesting and unique is gone. Why…?


MAGIC ITEMS

VAST numbers of Magic Items have been cut from the list, with nothing given in return. I’m going to lay off with the criticism for this mind, since it is just a get-you-by list after all (though a simple note “Don’t take Daemons with your Hordes list” and leaving it at that would have made this whole process much easier…)

The cost of Common Magic Items is constant, except the Biting Blade (5 points) and Sword of +1 Attackeyness (20 points). Amusingly, this means that for a Chaos Lord, the Sword of +1 Attack and an Enchanted Shield costs the same as a shield and additional hand weapon.

5 Magic Weapons. The Chaos Runesword is 60 points, for each wound caused by the character (in combat?) they gain one wound themselves. Chaos Daemon Sword (50 points) gives +1 WS, +1 S and +1 A, with any rolls of a one to hit attacking the character bearing it. Whip of Pleasure is down to 40 points but otherwise unchanged, Filth Mace and Axe of Khorne are the same as now.

4 Magic Armours. Chaos Runeshield, Armour of Damnation, Bane Shield and Crimson Armour of Dargan. All exactly the same as now.

2 Talismans. Crown of Everlasting Conquest (no change), Golden Eye of Tzeentch (now 40 points). Collar of Khorne has been moved to Enchanted Items, see later.

3 Arcane Items. Staff of Change costs 70 points and no longer exhausts itself when it actually does something useful. Skull of Katam remains unchanged. There’s a new kind of Familiar, Chaos Familiar, which gives +1 Power Dice and +1 Dispel Dice for 40 points.

2 Enchanted Items. Helm of Many Eyes is still in unaltered (surprisingly, actually) and the Collar of Khorne has been moved here, costing 25 points and providing a Magic Resistance of 3.

2 Magic Banners, which since one costs 125 points makes the whole “any unit can take a Magic Banner of 50 points or less” kind of pointless. Banner of the Gods and Banner of Wrath are largely unchanged, except the Gods now has a much more useful range of 12” and the Wrath now comes with a Power Level of 5.

This is all I have noticed so far, apologies for what is a duplication of earlier posts. Any other questions, feel free to ask away, and I’ll answer as best I can.


Taken From http://www.ulthuan.net/viewtopic.php?t=25121&start=30
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Post by Cenyu »

It is as if you amputated the leg of a patient who has a broken foot as an immediate measure and, as you release him, pat him on the back and tell him that the prosthesis will arrive in half a year.

Of course the prosthesis will be awesome, or so you are told.
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Post by Vorchild »

It is pretty horrible, there's no doubt there and there are some truly and utterly stupid things that were done (the lord's mundane choices as mentioned about and the fact that a Khorne army now needs to hire a scroll caddy to be effective).
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

Vorchild wrote:It is pretty horrible, there's no doubt there and there are some truly and utterly stupid things that were done (the lord's mundane choices as mentioned about and the fact that a Khorne army now needs to hire a scroll caddy to be effective).


Well GW has stated that they want people to use all marks in their armies, that is why the fluff in the latest daemon books portray them as more pals then before. Mono lists seems to be a thing of the past.
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Post by Vorchild »

Well, though I admit that a large and quick change usually bugs me, what bugs me a bit more is that I have a khornate army that I'm not sure is worth the bother anymore with a sorcerer added or not. I mean, frenzy in an army can be considered both a good thing and a bad thing at the same time, meaning that in few cases would you ever actually pay to subject yourself to it when there are other choices available, especially when you're looking at elite style units like chaos warriors, not to mention fast units like knights.
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Post by Ukko »

Yeah - think the stopgap list's a write-off. The marks are definately losing some potency too, really think the new book'll be made or lost by the amount of new choices. Whatever happened to the talk of generic ogresized monster unit? It'll need skirmishers (if core's all infantry we need an anti-scout unit because marchblocking will be a killer! Even now we only reach the other player's deployment zone on turn 4...) and some sort of warmachine hunters too. The only way to use this list realistically is to abuse it :? - I'd rather use SoC or old one
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Post by Lordofthenight »

There’s a new kind of Familiar, Chaos Familiar, which gives +1 Power Dice and +1 Dispel Dice for 40 points.


That's already in the book, just under a different name and 10 points more.


Does anyone know if this is actually an offical (by which I mean compulsary) list? Because if not, there seems to be no advantage to Chaos players to use it. Not many people took daemons anyways - so there really wasn't much need to change anything, let alone change it so drastically.

Nonetheless, I'll still be using the current book, as I use a chariot mortal army. Impossible to do with this list.
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Post by Dalamar »

It's official and replaces HoC book.
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Post by Voodoomaster »

lordofthenight wrote:Nonetheless, I'll still be using the current book, as I use a chariot mortal army. Impossible to do with this list.

which i think is GW's Intention with the list, Chariots will be in special for good now i believe, even with the new book.
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Post by Lordofthenight »

Oh, I'm sure they will be in the new list, when the book gets published. But I'm assuming they're actually going to make a proper list for that, rather than having three choices in each selection.
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Post by Aginor26 »

I wouldnt be surprised to see this completely ignored in non-tournament play. Personally it looks like crap to me and I couldnt care less if my opponent plays with the old book. A good friend of mine plays chaos and this revision pretty much kicks his list in the balls.
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Post by Bad beast »

it's not the units being shuffled around so much that bugs me, most of us expected chariots to move to special anyway, and moving the knights to special is inline with the newer army books anyway (read high elves)

what gets me is the dropping of over 75% of the magic items for no apparent reason at all, can you honestly say that items like the pendent of slaanesh were over powered and needed to be removed?

that coupled with the ridiculous cost of non magical equipment just makes several points in the list retarded, "joy my chaos lord is 10 points cheaper, too bad i have to pay 5 times as many points for his equipment as any other lord in any other list
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Post by Ant »

Amusingly, this means that for a Chaos Lord, the Sword of +1 Attack and an Enchanted Shield costs the same as a shield and additional hand weapon.

I find this absolutely hilarious!

I am now extremely pleased about my decision to convert all my mortal chaos into undead.
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Post by Laeone coldheart »

Ant wrote:
Amusingly, this means that for a Chaos Lord, the Sword of +1 Attack and an Enchanted Shield costs the same as a shield and additional hand weapon.

I find this absolutely hilarious!

I am now extremely pleased about my decision to convert all my mortal chaos into undead.


Converting doesnt sound like such a bad idea since my mortals and beasts seem to no longer play nice with each other...
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Post by Rhakinlanthari »

This stop-gap list sounds really boring if you ask me, for a number of reasons:

  • The requirement to take units of foot marauders or warriors
  • Changing the marks of Khorne/Tzeench
  • Reducing number of magic items
  • Removing Chaos lores of magic and forcing people to use college magic.


I don't own any chaos but I think my friends will probably keep using the old books until the actual army book comes out. I hope that's an improvement.
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Post by Dalamar »

RhakinLanthari wrote:
  • The requirement to take units of foot marauders or warriors


They are changing all 7th edition armies to infantry based... most cavalry (if not all) in core so far does not count for minimum core choices... if it's core at all

RhakinLanthari wrote:
  • Changing the marks of Khorne/Tzeench


I don't know about this one as I haven't seen the new list yet

RhakinLanthari wrote:
  • Reducing number of magic items


obviously a problem with limited pages in WD rather than deliberate reduction

RhakinLanthari wrote:
  • Removing Chaos lores of magic and forcing people to use college magic.


same as items I suppose as that would take up extra 3 pages just for the lores... isn't the whole article 3 pages right now?
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Post by Rhakinlanthari »

Dalamar, couldn't they just say something along the lines of: "Use the magic items and lores in the 6th edition Hordes of Chaos book", which pretty much all chaos players own, and is probably still available from GW.

I haven't seen the list of magic items either, but was going off what other people had said in this thread.
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Post by Dalamar »

actually this means they made at least slightly reasonable move (as far as GW and marketing reason goes)
by doing that they'd tell all new chaos players:
yeah, buy that book to use some magic items... yeah that book is already outdated as you buy it but you need it for those 8 or so pages... yeah, we're releasing new book in a few months.
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They are containing whole list in one publication which, while might not be the best chaos list ever, is reasonable... and lets face it, this list is only temporary and it definitely won't go the way of Chaos Dwarves (whee, Ravening Hordes list in the middle of 7th ed! :P)
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Ant wrote:
I am now extremely pleased about my decision to convert all my mortal chaos into undead.


If ever you needed a reason eh Ant. Geez, another piece of brilliant comedy script writing from GW. Even better than the recent FAQs :lol:
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Post by Lord woulfe »

So thinking about this the beasts of chaso will be using the old lores of chaos, hordes will be using college lores, and daemons will be using the new lores, am I the onlky one who thinks that this is going to be very confusing, and probably make people want to stop playing the chaos armies.(not quit due to the magic problems, just overall)
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Post by Saint of m »

I take it you can nolong mix and match units from other chaose armies then? (A mortal army, with a shagoth, some blood letters for excample.)
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Post by Azure »

Nope. Solely Demons, mortal and beasts. Terrible decision IMO

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Post by Lordofthenight »

Dalamar, couldn't they just say something along the lines of: "Use the magic items and lores in the 6th edition Hordes of Chaos book", which pretty much all chaos players own, and is probably still available from GW.


You'd think that'd be the case, but (in England at least) Hordes of Chaos was supposed to come off the shelves when Daemon of Chaos went on.
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

lordofthenight: the same in all GW stores, they have pulled the book.
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