Low leadership armies v Daemons

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Low leadership armies v Daemons

Post by Dark Alliance »

So, what are all you owners of low leadership armies going to do against the new Daemons?

With all the fear and terror they cause, coupled to some of the insane leadership deduction gifts etc, and force charge gifts etc you are gonna need a new game plan.

No doubt the initial answer from the smart arses out there will be "die", or "I'm gonna put em away till my book gets a rewrite" but not everyone can afford to do that, and not everyine will even want to.

So, what new battle plans, damage limitation plans etc are you guys cooking up?

If the answer is nothing, then let's use this thread to get the brain cells working! ;)
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Ant
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Post by Ant »

I think it is just going to be a case of sorting out some of the weaker points in the army. Gobbo generals are likely to have to bite the bullet and go for an orc general, but more importantly load up on ItP squigs and fanatics to do damage to anything that causes terror before those tests are made. Savage orcs are bound to become a bit more popular (no problems for me then!.

Bretsare likely to load up a bit on Errant (andgrail) knights, but doing that is a good idea anyway.

Ogres aren't going to be caring too much since they all cause fear anyway so will be taking much fewer tests.

it is actually the high Ld armies which I think will have problems in this area. Goblin generals are used to their armies running away all the time but elven, dwarf, lizardmen and skaven players are't. And I think it will come as a real shock to them when their Ld8 or 9 troops who should pass most tests suddenly become Ld 6 or 7 andstart running away a lot. It is certain to screw with L8 stubborn troops, something many of these armies have in abundance.


However what I find more interesting is how many armies with these Ld items are likely to be seen? Bearing in mind VC, TKs and Deamons really don't care what their Ld is mostof the time, as well as the abundance of ItP troops in he game right now, it seems a bit of a risk to spend that amount of points on these items in an already expensive army.
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Post by Camaris »

I'm not going to do anything new. I'm still going to take lots and lots of fanatics. :twisted:


Ant wrote:It is certain to screw with L8 stubborn troops, something many of these armies have in abundance.


This LD drain thing negates stubborn? And I thought there was finally going to be a use for my blackguard. :(
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Post by Dalamar »

It doesn't negate stubborn, it just makes you test your stubborn at Ld6 or 7 instead of 8/9
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Post by Lord woulfe »

Lizardmen will not be that effected as they still have the leadership tests of three dice, but daemons are T3 so anyone with any magic, or shooting will be able to kill them before it somes to close combat, or they get within six inches
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Post by Vorchild »

I only took a quick look at the army book today, and I must say that it seems that you really need to tool a really tool the daemon list to get the most direct effect out of it - but that can be said about most armies out there. Personally, I don't think its too huge an issue for too many armies out there - they'll learn to deal with it by balancing out their armies a bit better. A goblin army with a stone thrower, 2 bolt throwers and a doom diver along with a few fanatics is going to make life seriously miserable for any number of daemon armies. As mentioned, you couple it up with some squigs to get some attack power and you're off to the races. Even trolls can come in handy let along a giant. Skaven may similarly find themselves drawn to picking up a couple RGs again in the event that they run into daemons.

In the end, its just like facing any other fear causing army. Yeah, some daemons have the gifts to make it an even lower Ld army, but its not like you aren't going to see it coming for the most part and then you simply focus your ranged efforts and fear causing efforts on those important threats first.
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Post by Emal »

My plan is simply to keep my night goblins close to my black orc general and his unit of black orcs so they may benefit from his leadership (something i would do anyway)

And from reading the daemon list i have noticed that they are unlikley to outnumber most armies in the warhammer world exept possibly dark elves and high elves and omething more (and even then it will be close)

But if i wouldnt be as close combat loving i would simply focus more on ranged attacks against them and tool my list a little with savage ors and trolls.
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Post by Mostlyharmless »

I'm rolling empire right now, and my plan is simple: unbreakable units, immune to psychology units, fear causing units, and lots of black powder.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

I notice that none of the replies coming in yet are from Beasts generals...

It's good to see that there are ideas out there already, pretty much what I expected really, but from the answers given you have confirmed what I thought would be the trend - ItP and more shooting. That's fine but in turn presents its' own set of problems on a larger scale when looking at the other opponents.

So, what effect do you think that they will have on the game as a whole? The Daemons are not the only list out there so alterations to your lists will still need to be able to take into account the other armies out there. Particularly if you are a regular tournament player.

So how do you think the proposed changes to your lists will help you overall, or what changes will you make to be viable in a tournament?



@ Ant: for a Daemon general, surely he wants to see more ItP troops on the board? They are less likely to run away from him so he cn get down and get dirty! This free his points up to spend on more even more toys to kill you!! He he...
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Post by Comrade igor »

I think Beasts will suffer if they load up on Herds.

I was playing 1500 against beasts with my Kh/Tz pantheon, during one of the first magic phases (i think it was turn 2) i split magic missiles into his Herds, 2 of his Herds too casualties and legged it off the board then later on in the game, the other Herd suffered the same fate from Flamer shooting which i finished off his Bestigors and chariot leaving him with just a single Herd which ambushed and escaped all the early carnage and a few bits and pieces locked in combat.

Ofcourse, that army isn't a common Beast army, i have yet to fight one with Dragon Ogres and Trolls and the like.
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Post by Slortor »

hmm - depends on the beast army really - only Tzeetch is really gonna havce a worry. Herds and hounds will be running away a lot but any sensible beast general (like myself) expects that anyway. The big beasts wont have much of a problem with fear and marked units (bar Tzeetch) will negate or at least reduce the problem.

Beasts players wont have much difficulty really - for us its the same as playing Undead really, nothing changes much...
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Post by Aginor26 »

I think outnumbering is a huge point. Your only going to run if your outnumbered, something demons will have to invest a LOT of points in a single unit to do.
Im personally much more afraid of the combination of maneuverability and striking power. Screamers, furies, and slaaneshi everything is absolutely terrifying (literally).
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Post by Arquinsiel »

I would more worry about the leadership lowering effects in relation to the ability of slaaneshi magic to make your units stupid. It's one of those things I would have to point at and scream "broken" a few million more times until I get over how poorly worded that was (I can't believe that GW intentionally designed the spell that way).
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Arquinsiel wrote:I would more worry about the leadership lowering effects in relation to the ability of slaaneshi magic to make your units stupid. It's one of those things I would have to point at and scream "broken" a few million more times until I get over how poorly worded that was (I can't believe that GW intentionally designed the spell that way).


What GW does nowadays tends to not surprise me anymore. They don't really listen at the playtesting stage so we just have to get used to dealing with their ramblings...

You make a really good point though about the stupidity, and this is a real issue when a wizard becomes affected by it if you are relying on the magic to weaken the Daemons ahead of combat. Same with shooting.

If I was doing Daemons I would favour Slaanesh as I really like the subtle ways in which they work
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Post by Druchiishootlord »

Well I don't really see any issues with the Demon army in relation to LD tests because they're simply harder hitting Undead. So in that respect there's no real change in the way that one would prepare for an all fear causing army. The only thing that would change is the way that you take down those fear causing units.

Now the thing that changes is the LD lowering capabilities of Slaanesh. You can bet that any guy who loves playing cheese will have a wet dream all over this army because of the minimal -3 LD to a possible -5 LD to a unit that one can do nothing about. More frustrating than watching Thorek drop some ancient Wrath and Ruin on your units every turn.
A -3 to the LD test is not something almost all armies can deal with. That drops the leadership of the most brave and stern lords of elves and dwarves, and the like, to that of the average human. This just makes the aspects of fear, and stupidity, that much more effective than what they really should be. If I start seeing the Masque and the LD icon in armies it may very well be a case where I tell people to start integrating an inside joke what we call "Carnosaur!!" at my local shop: If there's some cheesy BS going on it's well within your right to randomly yell out "Carnosaur" and chuck a Carnosaur at your opponents dome.

Lets not forget that the Stupidity spell isn't the only one in the list that forces leadership tests. Their magic missile that keeps on going. You know the real "Pain Train" of failing numerous tests as bolts of S&M pleasure pelt your units to the everlasting pleasure of Slaanesh.

I do have to admit however the ( sometimes not so) subtle way which Slaanesh plays with leadership really makes them effective but I believe it may be a bit too much considering that they their infantry is the fastest infantry in the game, well tied for it, and their cavalry is the fastest out there and is only outmaneuvered by flyers. So in the case of Slaanesh the two combined makes things a bit tough to bring to grips.
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Post by Arquinsiel »

To be fair Slaanesh armies have gone from being subtle to being the griefers of the tabletop world.
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Post by Scareypete »

I have so far only dealt with a Slaaneshi opponent...

My problem this time was deployment.

Warrior Priest With 15 greatswords and 5 man halberd detachment and 5 man archer detachment.

Outriders on a hill with hochland Long Rifle.

25 Speamen with Wizard and 10 man militia detachment and 5 man archer detachment.

This I call the WEAK Flank... sadly My opponent came at my Weak flank with a Keeper of Secrets (Outriders got 1 wound on him before dying horribly) 2 units of 14 Deamoneettes with heralds.. one was BSB. Heralds gave ASF... Spearmen were toast... plus the -2 to Lead made rally and terror tests next to impossible.

Central portion of my Line...

9 Knights with lances and Templar Grand Master. Immune to Psych FTW! Knights Destroyed 3 Fiends of Slanesh, then flank charged into an engaged unit of 15 Deamonettes. Mask came and tried to ruin their day in the rear but she couldn't touch that 1+ SV.

Behind that I had 14 handgunners with a hochland Rifle and a Cannon on hill. These were destroyed when a unit of Seekers over ran a few times.

Right Flank I had Strong side

5 knights with hammers Lead by luthor huss
15 Flagellants.

Cannon and 12 Hangunnders with hochland on a hill to rear.

Knights engaged the unit of 15 Deamonettes and drew or beat them in every round of Combat thanks to S4 hammers.

Flagellants couldn't deploy a proper screen in time to stop the seekers who ate through my Gunline in 4 turns.

With Empire we really lack many troops who can mitigate this psychology disadvantage. Templar grand Masters/Kurt Hellborg and Karl Franz make their unit Immune to Psych but all are lords so pick 1.

Luthor Huss makes unit cause fear. He's hero but special so only 1 allowed.

One Magic Item makes th eunit immune to fear.

Stubborn Greatswords... meh.

Flagellants immune to Psych... Steam tank...

A better deployment and remembering to use my bound items and prayers on turn 1 may have helped a lot... by turn 3 my wizard was dead... and the Slaanesh dispell pool makes short work of 2 prayers an da bound spell... especially when 1 priest is busy fleeing.

So The Key is going to have ot be Hochland Long Rifles for me... first turn focus as much as I can on killing heralds... They grant ASF to the Units which speedily destroy any Flagellant tarpit strategies.

Of course Flagellant Tarpis on the flanks to keep the seekers out of the gunline...

Low leadership and MSU have a seriously bad drawback when combined unless its with detachments. Plus Slaaneshi Deamons have so many attacks with great weaponskill they often over run so you can't even sacrifice detachments to move your gun lines out of harms way.

Its all about learning curve on deployment it seems.
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