How to tell someone they are cheap w/o whining?

For discussion about all the lesser races of Warhammer. Talk about armies, tactics and lists to take on the Druchii here...

Moderator: The Dread Knights

Gruff
Trainee Warrior
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:21 pm

How to tell someone they are cheap w/o whining?

Post by Gruff »

Question for you guys... how do you guys tell someone that you think they are being cheap without sounding like you are whining? I play the vast majority of my games against one other person, and I feel like he often uses lists/tactics that are at least borderline cheap. I can't exactly just get up and leave, or I won't have someone to play with. But if I comment on something that smacks a bit too much of powergaming, then I sound like I'm whining. I don't mind losing when I feel like it's been a fair game, but I'm not a fan of losing before I start. Ideas? Other than L2P. :P
User avatar
Kheel
Noble
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:04 am
Location: Sweden - without any polar bears!
Contact:

Post by Kheel »

When that happens, i bring my SAD Skaven setup.
Cheesy lists should be fought by cheese. Fight fire with fire so to speak.

If you're playing Druchii list, i would do the cheesiest i could think of, 3 units of 5 dark tiders mu rxbw, 4 units of 5 harpies, that is it for the core. Then a unit of BG 12 strong fc, magic weapon to boost the chanpions attacks, and standard of hag graef. If you want, you can put 18 in this unit, 6x2 or 6x3. 2 CoC and a unit of CoK with ring of hotek on the champ here.
2 hydras to really get a good punch.
As for the heroes, 1 dragon and 2 pegasus.

If you answear with the same medicine, the "fun" he has while winning won't happen since it is more even this way. just figure out what is needed to win, get it and then go nail him a couple times.

Hope I understood you right - cheap as in cheesy right?
//Kheel

Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.
Gruff
Trainee Warrior
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:21 pm

Post by Gruff »

Yup, cheap as in cheesy. Last time was an HE archer/boltthrower/mage line, with a level 4 mage and a level 2 mage sitting with a unit of 18 Swordmasters (w/ MR2 banner) in a house, another level 2 mage running around, and a BSB w/ banner of Sorcery hiding behind the house. Only way to get any victory points is to charge that house, since there's about 1000 points in it, since you can't shoot it (hard cover) and you can't magic it (MR2 banner). If you do charge, SMs are likely to destroy you, if you can even get close to it, which I couldn't, because he was shooting/magicking a unit and a half or so off the board each turn. Sure, I killed about one unit of archers w/ my bolt throwers and harpies, and took out his march-blocking great eagle w/ my dark riders, but the amount of shooting and magic he had meant that I couldn't get to that house with anything dangerous to save my life. Because he had so much magic, it was relatively easy for him to drop a drain magic at the end of his turn and I couldn't do anything about it. It was a very frustrating game, and I don't think very fun for either of us. I didn't even really get to play, and he had to listen to me complain at the end of it. I want to enjoy the game, and I really hate for my opponents to sound like I'm whining, but I'd love to find a way to suggest certain things aren't in the spirit of sportsmanship without sounding like I'm crying about it.
User avatar
Kheel
Noble
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:04 am
Location: Sweden - without any polar bears!
Contact:

Post by Kheel »

surely there must be a way to damage the building itself, the magic resistance does not effect the building they are hiding in, since you are not targeting the unit. A high streanght magic trick should be able to damage the building, leaving them dead inside.

I would just leave the unit hiding and take out everything else, sure the magic can do a bit of damage, but if you stay 24 inches away from the tower at all times, there is no way he could get benefits from it.

And before you start the battle, say like you are playing on a plain or a field. When I play we usually take 3 forests and 2 hills. Thats it
We still have alot of fun.
Buildings in general makes people argue - arguing only leads to negative thinking, in the long end it may be good, but during the actual game, avoid anything like this.

It is anyones common sense to make the game as pleasent for both sides.

I played against a very cheesy VC list with my balanced druchii setup, he knew i was going balanced but still went for the cheese, so I just stood there waited for him to come, and when he came and charged i fled with everything i had.
Started packing my things, said "grats, you won. Bye"

Look around for other people to play with. Only thing you can do. If he won't listen to you and if you don't know what to say. I would just put it out there in his face, "hey listen here you tit, stop this nonesense or bugger off"
He will find out soon enough that it is more fun to play several evenly matched games than only a few power ownage games when your opponent just lose interest.
If he still doesn't learn, then tell him to go play hide and go f**k himself. It is not whining or crying, it is just you making a statement - either this or nothing
Besides, you're playing a Druchii army!! Enhance the spirit of the Druchii, by the name of Khaine!!! Spit on his tooth brush, leave the toiled seat up so his gf will get pissed off! The small eving things - revenge after a lausy game!
Or you could just get a spoon, rip out his eye and pee in his eye socket... whatever is more Druchii, its your opinion of choice
I really can't be arsed with this kind of people


But what i don't get is, why didn't you just grab all the 3 remaining table edges and killed everything else? That way you would have won for sure.
If you can find a way to smash the building, that would be the best.
Have a camera ready and take a picture of his face when 1000 points dies in one turn. :)
//Kheel

Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.
User avatar
Fr0
Trademaster
Posts: 3170
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: How to tell someone the yare cheap w/o whining?

Post by Fr0 »

Tell him he should try another list to spice his army up..
User avatar
Mr. anderson
Dark Illusionist
Posts: 2270
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:25 am
Location: Dating a Witch elf...

Post by Mr. anderson »

Surely your opponent must notice that their list is somewhat unfair? After all you didn't kidnap them, locked them up in a bunker and gave them nothing but the rulebook and the highelf AB, threatening to kill them should they not beat you 9 out of 10 times(or did you?), so they must have some idea that there is something wrong with the list... It's not like you have to put up with that stuff due to some obligation of yours - both sides are supposed to have fun. Just tell them that you don't reckon its much fun to play against their army and perhaps they should change it...
If you are friends, there should be some room to discuss these issues (you aren't being paid for these games, after all).

And if all that doesn't work, play an equally annoying army. DE have got some great potential there and I'm sure many people would be open to discuss the cheesiest list that can possibly be created with the new army book :twisted:

HUZZAH!
When I think of something witty, I shall put it here.
User avatar
Archdukechocula
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1388
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:49 am

Post by Archdukechocula »

Just let him know you aren't having much fun with the way he has been designing his lists. "Hey man, recently with all these powerful lists you've written, I feel like the game has been really kind of boring for me. Would you mind if we tried to create some more balanced lists? Maybe just play with some guidelines for list construction?" Simple as that. While its true that he is your only opponent, it follows that you must be his only opponent, which means he has to be willing to make you happy if he wants to play the game. Just be honest about it and try and come up with a fair solution you can both work with.
"I'd never join any club that would have the likes of me as a member."
User avatar
Kiaron hebleth
Black Guard
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:27 pm
Location: Sittin' on my manticore

Post by Kiaron hebleth »

Gruff wrote:Yup, cheap as in cheesy. Last time was an HE archer/boltthrower/mage line, with a level 4 mage and a level 2 mage sitting with a unit of 18 Swordmasters (w/ MR2 banner) in a house, another level 2 mage running around, and a BSB w/ banner of Sorcery hiding behind the house.


Just deploy your as much of your army as possible behind some terrain in a circle around the ring of Hotek. Sit there for the entire game. His mages can sit in their bunker and cast spells at your antimagic bunker. The game will consist of nothing but magic phases and miscasts.

If high elves can turn turtle, so can we. After a few games like this you can suggest that you try different lists or tactics for a change of pace.
Character Name: Dah'menk

Stats:
WS5 S3 T2 D4 I4

Weapons: Long Sword, shield, light armour, corsair handbow, 5 clips of ammo, excellent quality knife, small knife.

Character class: Warrior
Skills: Defensive fighting

RPG Group 18 mod
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Post by Calisson »

There is no rule to destroy buildings (we're not playing WH40k).

The trick with buildings (which I play every game) is template weapons.
We don't have warmachines as druchii, but we sure have breath weapons.
One dragon, one dragon egg, two hydraes.
Set up a forest so that all beasts can hide at 19" from the building.
Fly/run and breath. Hydra moves 12" across woods thanks to skirmisher move, and breath 8" away.
The breath template needs only to slightly touch the building to be effective. No need to target. No cover against that.
You get 4 x 1d6 hits, easily wounding the E3 elves.
If ever they survive that and don't flee, your tough beasts should survive the opponent's turn.
Especially if you have the ring of Hotek with the dragon, at 7" from the building.
You're likely to be able to breath again next turn with the 3 beasts and finish burning the remaining building occupants.

Also, a super-über-unit of (edit) 20 Black Guard with ring of Hotek and ring of darkness and null talismans and ASF standard of HG should be enough to dislosge them. Especially if you can autobreak them with fear.
Last edited by Calisson on Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Ehakir
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 am
Location: Located

Post by Ehakir »

Calisson wrote:Also, a super-über-unit of 30 Black Guard with ring of Hotek and ring of darkness and null talismans and ASF standard of HG should be enough to dislosge them. Especially if you can autobreak them with fear.


Max unit size for BG = 20

But if you don't want to play vs him with the list you made, play vs others or alter your list ;)
"Ceterum censeo Ulthuan esse delendam"
-Ehakir

3/4 of games are won by deathstars. Copy this into your signature if you still use real tactics to win.
User avatar
Grimma
Executioner
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:46 am
Location: Sunny Brisbane

Post by Grimma »

Seek satisfaction the Druchii way. Put a roach in his cornflakes.
UNSEEN LERKER MAGAZINE - It'll make you happier than a Corsair in a Bretonnian orphanage.
User avatar
Archdukechocula
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1388
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:49 am

Post by Archdukechocula »

Beating this guy at his own game doesn't solve Gruff's essential problem. The problem is, his opponent is creating lists and utilizing tactics that's are unenjoyable. Responding with superior cheese, or tailored cheese, is liable to encourage his opponent in finding yet new ways to win at all costs, which is of course what Gruff is trying to avoid. After all, if his opponent is finding satisfaction in hiding his army and winning through phase dominance and denial, he obviously seeks to win however possible, and thus beating him will do nothing but further entrench him in his mindset of finding ways of min/maxing. After all, if he loses, he must not have done it well enough.

If you ask me, the only way to approach someone like that is to be straight up with them about it in a friendly way, and let them know you are losing interest in the game because they are more concerned about the winning than the playing. Its perfectly legitimate to play WAACY armies as long as everyone involved is having fun. If on the other hand someone isn't, the adult thing to do is to find a mutually agreeable way in which you can play the game that everyone enjoys. Ideally, that happens naturally, or at least is achieved through a sort of gentleman's agreement on what is and is not 'fun".
"I'd never join any club that would have the likes of me as a member."
User avatar
Demetrius
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1070
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:36 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by Demetrius »

Take away the buildings or stay away from the building bunker.
User avatar
Azimyth
Beastmaster
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:54 pm
Location: In the South Lands

Post by Azimyth »

Use the shade deathstar a couple of times. I can't think of a HE army that can take it on. You either shoot him to pieces or beat him up in HTH.
After a few games stop using it and say that it was boring winning all the time. That should change his attitude.
South African Players: http://www.warhammergenerals.co.za
Religion: A cult for the masses
God Protect Me ... From Your Followers
ETC: Rules for whingers who still want to play 7th
User avatar
Duke daedric
Cold One Knight
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:45 am
Location: Feeding my cold one with baby dwarves..

Post by Duke daedric »

Hmmmm...

As most say go for the reasoning, however I would first go for some uber-cheesy list which would make him cry.

And after beating him and when he starts to call your list CHEESY as much as that sounds inapropriate (don't worry he will for it takes one to know one ;) ), THEN explain that he has been a pain in the b.. and that is how you felt when playing that godawful lists of his.

I generaly avoid playing with that kind of people since their image of FUN is much more different than mine..
(\__/)
(O.o )
(> < ) This is the Assassin Bunny.
He has been specially trained by "the Old man of the Mountain".
He looks cute and than bites off your aorta when you least expect it.. ;)
Whobetta
Black Guard
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:48 pm

Post by Whobetta »

Callison,

can you really breathe fire on/into buildings?

what are the rules for that on what page?

me and my friend are using buildings more and more and this would greatly benefit my DE army against his HE army.

thanks again!!!!
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Post by Calisson »

whobetta wrote:can you really breathe fire on/into buildings? => yes, nothing prevents it.

what are the rules for that on what page? => among the specific rules for buildings, at the end of the rulebook

me and my friend are using buildings more and more and this would greatly benefit my DE army against his HE army. => lots of tactical uses. A great enhancer to many footed units. Very vulnerable to magic, though.

thanks again!!!! => welcome

See what we're using as buildings: former food-boxes. Cheap, efficient, nice-looking (and delicious). cheap buildings
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Cadeyrn
Shade
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:05 pm

Post by Cadeyrn »

On another tatic, simply change the points value of a few games to shake things up. If you nomally play 2000, offer to play a few 1999 point games. Simply by eliminating a lord choice, and quite a few rare/special choices, you can force him/her to bring a different tatic to the game, one that typically favors more troops, and less hero/monsters/warmachines.
User avatar
@1elbow
Warrior
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:42 am

Post by @1elbow »

Archdukechocula wrote:Beating this guy at his own game doesn't solve Gruff's essential problem. The problem is, his opponent is creating lists and utilizing tactics that's are unenjoyable. Responding with superior cheese, or tailored cheese, is liable to encourage his opponent in finding yet new ways to win at all costs, which is of course what Gruff is trying to avoid. After all, if his opponent is finding satisfaction in hiding his army and winning through phase dominance and denial, he obviously seeks to win however possible, and thus beating him will do nothing but further entrench him in his mindset of finding ways of min/maxing. After all, if he loses, he must not have done it well enough.

If you ask me, the only way to approach someone like that is to be straight up with them about it in a friendly way, and let them know you are losing interest in the game because they are more concerned about the winning than the playing. Its perfectly legitimate to play WAACY armies as long as everyone involved is having fun. If on the other hand someone isn't, the adult thing to do is to find a mutually agreeable way in which you can play the game that everyone enjoys. Ideally, that happens naturally, or at least is achieved through a sort of gentleman's agreement on what is and is not 'fun".


True, and the reason why it is lies in the mentality of someone who plays a cheesy army. They want to win. If you have a wacky strategy or unit that they can't beat, they'll just come back over the top.

My regular group had a player that straight up cheated and we let it slide for a long time...and that whole time we got cheated as it suited him. He only backed off when we settled on calling him out when he did it.

If this is the only player you can get a game in with, then you are going to either have to settle for no-holds-barred action or get him to tone it down. My question is what will happen if you do try and talk to him, are you his only regular and will he be forced to give in or can he go somewhere else? If so, you can probably find another source of gaming.

But you really need to just find a gaming middle ground and try to hold it, that is all you can do in a limited playing circle.
User avatar
Langmann
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Posts: 5170
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
Location: Putting needles into people.

Post by Langmann »

Whenever I meet a person in this game who is behaving like an actual dick, I always present them the "Ass Charge".

Basically you make an unbreakable unit that is very long and not very wide. For the druchii what you do is take a large unit of spearmen with a BSB with the Nag banner.

Then lay this large unit out during setup on its side:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXF

where F is the front of the unit.

On your turn, wheel the unit so that the front is now facing your end of the table. This ends up swinging the back of the unit around such that it almost crosses the table. You position this such that it ends up trapping all his good stuff inside its net. With the BSB in the front of the unit facing you he is nicely out of combat so you won't lose unbreakable.

Then take a lord on a dragon, or a couple of chariots to charge whatever gets caught in that net. He's going to charge it at least once.

The amusing thing about the ass charge is that if you do this with undead you can then simply use 1/4 movement to turn the unit so your frontage is once again foward having successfuly rocketed your unit across the table.

A few games of Ass Charge and people start to become more willing to consider that this game isn't balanced and that some respect for your opponent is warranted.

I remember doing the Ass Charge with my druchii against a Beastman all chariot army with a lord with the GoP (in 6th Ed) on a manticore ready to bust his chariots down the line. Boy was he pissed...
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
Goblin stalker
Warrior
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:16 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Post by Goblin stalker »

Langmann, that "ass charge" isn't a legal manouver. On any change of formation no model can move any more than double their mouvement (unless I am completely mistaken, then my apologies)

My roommate and I started to notice that we were getting a bit crazy on lists so we started to integrate a system of army composition. Just something to know when one list is seriously over balanced. We also discuss the lists we have before we play, share ideas on how to beat each one, see what can be done.
Empty mind
tormented mind
whiplash from my thoughts
the crowded vacancy explodes
User avatar
Langmann
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Posts: 5170
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
Location: Putting needles into people.

Post by Langmann »

Goblin Stalker wrote:Langmann, that "ass charge" isn't a legal manouver. On any change of formation no model can move any more than double their mouvement (unless I am completely mistaken, then my apologies)


You're not changing formation, you are moving, wheeling. It is because the unit is so much longer than wider, that it ends up turning its end a large distance.

A legal maneuver.
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
User avatar
Zardock
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:59 am
Location: Dunedin, NZ.

Post by Zardock »

You're not changing formation, you are moving, wheeling. It is because the unit is so much longer than wider, that it ends up turning its end a large distance.

A legal maneuver.


/clap langmann I salute you, That sir is amazing sheer laughable counter to anything cheesey indeed.

Does seem like using something as Rules bendy as that would seem to throw "the win at all costs" attitude to kick into overdrive. Somewhat detrimental to the entire stopping the cheese motivation.
Join the Shrine of the Serpent today!
Brotherhood of the Coast!

Zardock (Group 27)
Class: Trainee of Khaine
WS:4 / S:5 / T:3 / D:4 / I:2
Equipment: Short sword and Dagger, 50g in a pouch.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Uncontrollable Frenzy

The Keeper of the D.net Battle Records.
User avatar
Master of arneim
Malekith's Personal Guard
Posts: 840
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:46 am
Location: Testing the new jacuzZi with Morathi

Post by Master of arneim »

Many moves "on the edge" are actually out of it.

The langmann theory about this rear charge could work if he does not encounter someone that says "the movement is not measured from the first rank, but only from the outside model (page 12)". If you read it with the rule that "Models (...) cannot move further than they normal move rate unless charging, marching, pursuing, or fleeing" and obviously reforming, this action is actually illegal.

One thing to remember when facing someone that tries to do some strange movement is read carefully the Rb and be annoying till death.
I'm Italian, and I know what "extremizing the rules" means, but as many others, I choosed the other side.

While the army composition cannot be stopped, because are the books themselves that are unbalanced, when in game the knowledge of the rulebook can really stop any stressed interpretation. Then hope that the referee is not stupid.
Master of Arneim, proud ruler of the cult of the thousand draichs, because bigger is better.
User avatar
Langmann
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Posts: 5170
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
Location: Putting needles into people.

Post by Langmann »

Master of Arneim wrote:Many moves "on the edge" are actually out of it.

The langmann theory about this rear charge could work if he does not encounter someone that says "the movement is not measured from the first rank, but only from the outside model (page 12)". If you read it with the rule that "Models (...) cannot move further than they normal move rate unless charging, marching, pursuing, or fleeing" and obviously reforming, this action is actually illegal.


Sorry but you're wrong. There is really no other way to say you are wrong, than that. (I don't care that you're from Italy or wherever either).

Under wheeling it doesn't state anything about models moving more than their move distance. It simply states "all models in the unit count as moving as far as the outside model". The outside model is the front one as shown in the diagram 13.1. In fact if you start to move even a regular sized, but more rectangularly shaped unit in a wheel you will see that some of the back models indeed move farther than allotted. There is no mention of rectangularly shaped units under wheeling.

Moreover, for example, models in units that reform may move up to twice their movement rate.

What I have mentioned is a problem with movement in warhammer that has been around for a very long time and is known to many older gamers. Most people control the urge to pull off such unrealistic maneuvers simply to protect the game from silliness. Indeed a VC army could be rediculously annoying if people made long congo lines out of their units and just marched them forwards along side each other, like strings moving down the board.

Even though the above is allowed, people don't take advantage of it in order to keep the game fun for their opponent. In the same manner, people need to design lists to keep the game both challenging and yet fun for their opponent as well. Warhammer is not a balanced game, we should all reflect on that.
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
Post Reply