Thoughts on New Chaos Releases.

[Saintofm]

What it says on the tin: What do you think of the new chaos units and minies for Fantasy?

Here are my thoughts, in no particular order:

Vaulkia the Bloody: I am not too thrilled with her. She is neither elegant nor beautiful and the images used in the current ED chaos book make her as both on par with her skills on the battle field (and yes, I have been on the pointy end of her spear before...it hurts). If I ever go chaos, I think I'll take one of the Witch Hunters with angel wings from 40K or look at one of the other games, and mod some dark pegasus wings on her back.

Scylla: he looks cool, like a red King Kong. He still counts as a chaos spawn, so is he a monsterous beast or since he looks like the size of a shagoth is he a full blown monster?

Skull Crusher: The minies look cool, but Warriors of Chaos has 2 monstrous infantry, 1 monstrous beast, and a monstrous cavalry units as is...do they need another monstrous unit?

Hellstriders: Wizards on seekers have more options now: Run 20 inches to cast your spells on the enemy that much faster! Oh, and have a whole unit at your beck and call with the same steed?

[Rork]

Two weeks later... >.>

The new Skull crushers are cool to look at, but I can't help but feel that in the era of uber-death weapons they're even easier to take out than more numerous Chaos Knights (even though they have two wounds). I've obliterated entire units of monstrous cavalry with a warp-lightning cannon, so I'd be a little worried about putting these on the field. Possibly a better option than Spawn, though.

I think Valkia is hard to get right - go too 'elegant' and you'll end up with a Dark Elf miniature or bump up against Slaanesh. After the blood-red lipstick, the make-up options get a little thin .

[Gastronauticon]

Not sure about this model though:

http://nzhammered.blogspot.co.nz/2013/0 ... 1842573912

While its a bit early to tell, another Ironblasteresque model sounds somewhat off. Then again, if it is unstable, it might be managable still.

[Holt]

I came across this on the Daemon Legions website:

http://imgur.com/a/Oulir

There are a series of 8 photos, some clearer than others, of the new rules in the book to be released this weekend. So have a flick through while they are still up.

Winds of Magic can have both good and bad and awesome and terrible effects on the entire army which I think is great. Heading towards a bit too much randomness for me but from what I have seen here I am looking forward to finish putting my Daemons army together, an army that has taken me 8 months just to get 2 units painted haha.

[Dalamar]

So I like how the demons now hate each other, and that khorne doesn't hate everyone universally. That's our job

Making a mixed chaos demons army seems like it's going to be a bigger liability than benefit.

[Omnichron]

From the rumors as well as the photoes, it seems like the flying plague bearers will be the new thing to use instead of fiends of slaanesh. The latter is still worth it I think, but a monstrous cavalry that is cheaper, stronger and tougher, with flight... seems to trumph the fiends quite easily. However, the plaguebearers is rare choice, might have some drawbacks we don't know about yet. I guess we just have to wait and see.

All that randomness to the army is a big drawback imo, but once again, we have to wait and see.

[Daeron]

Well... I got the book. It's certainly a visually laden book. I'm still examining the units.. one god at a time. The skull cannon has me.. puzzled.. a bit. I'm surprised not to see more moans about it just yet. It makes me wonder if I missed a spicy little detail.

Either way, the chariot packs a wallop. It has a classic, big/tough chariot profile with added benefits:
- Ward saves and MR
- Killing blow on the riders
- It can regain wounds on the charge
- It has a fully functional, S10 D6 wound cannon on top

It would be worth its price as a cannon without the chariot. It would be worth its price as a chariot without the cannon. It as both for the same price.. and yet.. it strikes me as less powerful than it looks on paper. My guess is that chariots are a bit of a risky unit considering the daemonic instability. You could charge into a unit, fail to break the steadfast and pop in the next round. Then again.. a cannon that can fight like a chariot is just crazy! I don't quite know what to think of it.
The command groups are a bit oddly priced.

Anyway, thinking up a quick 1.2K Khorne army, I'd be tempted to try something like
- Lord/Herald ... Still thinking about those. I might go for a single character, though a BSB could perhaps be squeezed in there.
- 21 Bloodletters... Sure, they got nerfed, but they are still a fairly solid unit.
- 3 Juggernauts
- 2 Skull Cannons
- Some hounds
Feels quite thin but very hard to deal with.

I found nurgle oddly appealing but I'm still digging into his units.

[Cold73]

I started dabbling with Daemon Battles a bit more recently. And will admit i like them better then i did before.
It might just be me, but i actually prefer to think what i do with my Greater Daemon now.. In the past with the right combination of tools...it was almost indestructable. Just avoid cannons and charge into the toughest unit you could find...you either had a 2+ AS or a get a wound back for every wound you inflicted.....boring....

As for what my list looks like...well i switch a lot...but i like Slaanesh ....

As for Daemons of Nurgle.... they look very good on paper...the -1 to hit sounds wonderfull.... but it is not all that exciting since they only have a WS of 3 (used to be 4), and since most of the armies seems to have a lot of WS4 attacks...they are still hitting on Plaguebearers on 4+. If you take a look at Warriors of Chaos you see how it could have... WS5 and -1 to hit is really really very good.

Skullcanon of Khorne. I'm afraid i don't share your point of view Dearon.
As it is now it is a cannon which can if it has a chance be usefull in combat...something that fits with the Daemon play style of no-nonsense close combat units.
As a chariot alone i think it would be quite useless.... what is the threat of this thing? Impact hits nice, but only if it ever manages to get a charge off. The biggest threat of a chariot is in my opinion the chance to hit hard (once), have high toughness (ok it has that) and has an armour save to withstand glancing blows. The skull canon has no armour save to speak off, so it has little to no survivability in close combat.
Looking at my opponents if i use it as a canon they shoot at it with cannons or even ordinary archers. But when i use it as a skull throne they simpy wait till it is in close combat before destroying it.

[Daeron]

Huh? No armor save? I may have misread, but I thought they had a 3+ AS, and the usual 5+ WS but no MR. If they don't have that armor.. then yeah.. I'd understand your point, but they do have it AFAIK.
Imagine our Cold One Chariots had WS5 cold ones, an extra attack from the "mount", S5 mounts, wound recovery on impact hits, killing blow on the riders.. Would you consider it worth 35 points more? It could be worth that. But now you get a cannon on top!
It's certainly a good buy for the price. There's the demonic instability, but that's as much a benefit as a penalty.

The unit is "manageable" though. A unit capable of hunting a chariot/warmachine might be able to tie it up for a while. But I wouldn't consider it fragile in combat by any means. It will take something strong to take it down.

[Cold73]

You are absolutely righ Daeron....I remembered wrong...it does indeed have a 3+ armour save...
Sorry...my memory served me wrong when i was at work.

You are right...with that 3+ armour save it does indeed make a very very good chariot...and with that cannon on top...
I agree...it could be a bit over powered.

[Daeron]

Well.. The power is a lot... but it's the price that's cheap. It still has a few weaknesses which keep it "manageable". It places a lot of pressure on the enemy but it can be dealt with.. At least, that's how it looks on paper. I still need my tester games

[Cold73]

Well...lets just say I still have to see it in action..thought i have used it twice...
In my first game with it my opponent a chaos dwarf player shoots a Death Shrieker at it hits...and kills it....with his first shot of the game.
Today i had my second game with it...i had first turn...i moved into position....took aim at the Skaven Doomwheel.....and........BOOM!! .... Bye bye Skull Canon.
Misfires are a pain.... 135 points might be a bargain for something as this....but when it blows up in the very first turn....especially in a 1600 pnt game....it becomes something entirely different

[Noble korhedron]

That 135 pts chariot with S10 cannon sounds BENT. I'm sorry, but that's so bent it's ridiculous!! It should be AT LEAST 150+ pts - if not more!!

[Saintofm]

can it move and shoot, or does it have to stay still to use the cannon?

[Cold73]

It is allowed to move and shoot...
It is about the same as the Ironblaster from the Ogres....
Still unsure what kind of misfire chart it uses....so i presume the blackpowder one.

[Meteor]

It's magical too, I can finally say * to VC ethereals! When I play Daemons.

[Cold73]

Loll...true.... but what they are actually better for in my opinion is a threat to all those AS 1+ Cavalry; Monstrous Cavalry; Daemon Princes and Steam Tanks out there.
The only thing that did have a good chance of that is a Greater Daemon, but every player worth is salt will make sure a greater Daemon never even sees those units any where near him.

[Daeron]

As they can move, staying outside LOS may be difficult. I'm still a bit in doubt though. Part of the unit is all chariot, and you want to fly that in close combat ASAP. But if you do so, you loose the cannon on top. If you wield it as a cannon, it looses the chariot side.
If you keep them back, and use them like a cannon, then they have more wounds and armor than a regular cannon... but I'm not sold on the idea that it's an ideal use for them. They can countercharge any warmachine hunters, but then they sacrifice the chance to fire a shot. If they take the charge, then they loose the combat abilities of the chariot and can be broken. Still.. running into close quarters with the enemy with them (no march though), then use double scrapshots looks like a powerful combo. You loose the charge though.. once again. It's this duality of the unit that impresses me that it can rarely reach the sum of both a cannon and a chariot, which would explain the cheaper cost. But it still impresses me as a strong choice for its points. But until I actually used them... I won't give them a final judgement

Maybe the South-Cost GT in the UK will reveal their performance in a competitive setting.

[Omnichron]

Rant mode engaged

The chariot cannons are just way to strong.

They remove the drawbacks from warmachines and make them allroundish good units (Which we see way too much of with monstrous stuff as well these days). They can't be killed by shades/harpies/dark riders or other units that is ideal for such things, which means that the game is turning more into the "Get the best f***ing units to be able to deal with the best f***ing units my opponent fields" instead of a game where you would use tactics and intelligence with your playstyle. It's a simplification of the game that I've seen with 40k several years ago.

A lot of the new units that arrives today have no real weaknesses. Take the demigryphs and skullcrushers as an example. None of them need to get the charge to work. It's not like they can be dealt with swiftly by magic/shooting/close combat like knights or the old monstrous stuff that lacked armor, nor do they lack the movement they need to get favourable encounters... they are stupidly easy to use and even more stupid with their cost... The only players who won't choose either of those are only the players who don't want to play easy armies that gives easy victories, and that's why all those easy sh**ty units can be found in every single list I see on local forums... and the same can be said about the khorne cannon!

Move and fire, and if you get too close with something that usually deals with warmachines, it just charges you and kills those off easily. It has good toughness, enough wounds and armor... It's stupidly good, like our hydra was and still is (Except that it dies quickly to any I tests, so it has more weaknesses than todays OP units), and it lessens the fun with the whole game.

Rant mode off

[Ming]

It's stupidly good, like our hydra was and still is (Except that it dies quickly to any I tests, so it has more weaknesses than todays OP units), and it lessens the fun with the whole game.

I must sadly agree.
WHFB is getting closer to W40K, always simpler, tailored for childs to brag about their big mean unkillable unit.
8th ed. rules seemed to favour big ranked infantry units, but ended introducing turckloads of MC and monsters with no weak spots.

Forgive me for the rant.....

[Saintofm]

Took a quick look at the daemons book, and here are a couple things no one has mentioned.

1st is Daemonic Instabilitiy. Works like normal instability (instead of running away when they loose a break test they lose wounds based on what they lost by on their break/unstable test). Here's thre difference though with these unbrekable units:

Double one, the whole unit comes back. If a charrecter was killed that turn, then they come back to.

So, lets say my horde of daemonetts got owned by a toooled out corsairs, the charectere was over killed b 5, and the unit is down tyo one gal. She rolls a snake eyes and everyone is back and ready for action.

Reversly if they get a double 6, they all go bye bye.

So if a giant yells and balls a unit of blood letters, and they roll a double 6, they all go back to the void.

Both a pretty rare all things considering, but they can change things for the better or the worse as one basicly gets a new unit on the board and another wipes out an existing one.

Oh, and magic: depending how much dice they get for the magic phase, they could get bonuses or detraments (I had time to read the first few ones, most of which are bad, so things might get better latter on). Any thoughts?

[Drek]

What about facing for the chariot? If it works like a cannon, you have to pivot it in the movement phase in the direction you want to shoot, and it cannot shoot at anything in the front arc like a normal chariot. This would limit it somewhat. Still under pointed, probably, but it's a new model and GW writes rules to sell models.

[Saintofm]

Probably front facing.

[Rork]

Oh, and magic: depending how much dice they get for the magic phase, they could get bonuses or detraments (I had time to read the first few ones, most of which are bad, so things might get better latter on). Any thoughts?

Some are good, some bad. But what it does do is make mono-god armies that bit better. A fair few results are god-specific, so the more variety you have, the more likely you are to find a unit taking damage. If you're lucky you end up with a small free unit, better ward save or a stone thrower shot (FROM HELL).

[Sulla]

Oh, and magic: depending how much dice they get for the magic phase, they could get bonuses or detraments (I had time to read the first few ones, most of which are bad, so things might get better latter on). Any thoughts?

Some are good, some bad. But what it does do is make mono-god armies that bit better. A fair few results are god-specific, so the more variety you have, the more likely you are to find a unit taking damage. If you're lucky you end up with a small free unit, better ward save or a stone thrower shot (FROM HELL).

Aren't the odds only one in six? If so, I'd say multi god is the better bet because if you do roll that god, you only have to roll for one or two units, whereas if you go mono god and roll that number, the odds are pretty good that at least one unit will be hit.

What really hurts multi god armies is the restriction on inspiring presence and BSB rerolls. The inspiring presence arguably less so because your greater daemon general is likely off on his own doing his own thing, anyway, but the BSB restriction means you are forced to either spam or deathstar all your core choices since they are the ones in the BSB's bubble. Poorly thought out rule IMO.