Dealing with 'miscalculated' army lists

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:10 am

Yesterday I played a three player game of Warmachine/Hordes, which was an okay game. However, on the train home it occured to me that one of my opponent's armies seemed rather large. As he was playing the same army type as me (Skorne) and I could remember exactly what he had, I did a quick tally and discovered that yup, he was 20% over (48 points rather than 40) and was not in fact running a tier list at all (despite claiming a tier 4 list).

The week before, I played a 2.5k game against High Elves (different opponent). Again, after the game it occured to me that it seemed unlikely that he could have managed to include a level 2 dragon mage, a BSB and Calydran. Sure enough, a quick tally and it was way over the 25% heroes limitation.

My question is, how do you deal with this kind of thing? I don't want to have to check my opponent's lists before every game I play (it would take ages, particularly in warhammer and with army types I am less familiar with), but equally I spend time getting my lists exactly right and I have no urge to play against people with illegal lists. For one thing, it gives me an immediate handicap. Do you just trust and hope for the best (accepting that every now and then a less than fastidious opponent is going to screw you) or do you try and do something else? Once you realise post-game, do you confront the player in question (risking looking like you're accusing them of cheating or being sour) or just let it sit?

Lord damian valar · Post by **Lord damian valar** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:37 am

Red,

I would defenately talk to your oponent about this. Not accusingly, but simply to have it out of the way. He could have made an honest mistake afterall.

I myself have two examples from my own experience.

In the first my oponent tought I played with an illigal list. He thought I played too many points in hero slots, but this was not the case as I played a dreadlord in a chariot (which he calculated as a noble). He did not confront me but instead talked to many others about it and soon the word spread. Needless to say I was not very happy about this...especially since it was simply not true.

In the second example i indeed did make a mistake. I was practicing for a big tourney and made a lot of switches between units in my list. Since I practically know the Dark Elf book out of my head, I did not really consult the book and kept replacing units in the list. somehow I did make a mistake and ended up with 1 shade unit too many on the board. One of my opponents (we had a league of some sort to see who represented our club) questioned me about the list and not untill then did I realise my mistake. After that it gave me the opportunity to apologize to the other players and in the end, no one blamed anybody.

So my advice is to talk to your opponent in private and sort things out. If it was a mistake he will be glad you came to him. If he did it on purpose, well....then he is just lame..

Good luck!

D...

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:23 pm

Good advice. People do make mistakes. Let your opponent know in a non-confrontational, non-threatening way. That being said, if it happens a second time, don't give them a chance to screw you a third time. Don't get mad, just don't play that person again.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:21 pm

This is a good example of how familiarity with other army books is a very important concept in Warhammer. Human error happens, but if you're informed as well, rather than having to place your trust in your opponent, then it's easier to spot major list errors. Also, it isn't too tough to insist on every opponent having a written copy of their list when they show up to play a game. This doesn't necessarily mean showing it to you, but having it on-hand and showing it to a third party or for reference during/after the game generally means players are more thorough in catching their own mistakes and preventing errors.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:51 pm

Yes, very good advice, thank you.

I already flagged it with one guy (the lesser of the two transgressors). I don't think it was his fault - he had shifted his legal 7th ed army into 8th ed without realising that the new hero allocations made his army illegal.

Problem with the other guy is that I can already predict that he will a) deny it and - if he does eventually concede the point - b) get defensive. I'm not sure I can really raise it with him effectively.

I'm thinking about making a general point to the group of gamers I usually play against (there's about 6-7 of us) that I've noticed certain irregularities in lists recently and ask them politely to make extra sure that their lists do add up correctly. I'm not going to point any fingers, but I do feel quite irked when I play a game that essentially is rigged against me. It's a waste of my time.

This is a good example of how familiarity with other army books is a very important concept in Warhammer. Human error happens, but if you're informed as well, rather than having to place your trust in your opponent, then it's easier to spot major list errors. Also, it isn't too tough to insist on every opponent having a written copy of their list when they show up to play a game. This doesn't necessarily mean showing it to you, but having it on-hand and showing it to a third party or for reference during/after the game generally means players are more thorough in catching their own mistakes and preventing errors.

Yeah, this is excellent advice too - many thanks!

Blaznak · Post by **Blaznak** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:03 pm

This kind of stuff is annoying, but unless its at a tournament level, we generally take the approach of a friendly conversation. If its intentional, just bite your tongue and play better players.

At a tourney/league, you have to point it out, sadly.

Just my thoughts.

~B~

Katon · Post by **Katon** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:56 pm

It Is annoying when people run a list over the points limit or just blatantly run a list that is illegal.

I rocked up to a GW store and there weren’t any major games running that day so I hooked up and played someone who was starting a second army. I asked how many points he had, 500 O&G. so I matched a 500 DE one.

He then asks if we can bump up to 600 so he can use some special character. I see no reason what to, he’s just got the army so is learning and testing.

Anyway we play on and the game is tedious. He knows his rules extremely well and his special characters are making my game hell.

In the end I manage a very minor victory with a Sorceress and 7 Spearmen left, he has nothing.

I go home with a slight fear of the new O&G as it was a horribly hard fight to win, getting home I feel the game is getting to me so call up someone I know with a O&G book and get him to point up my opponents army. And query a shed load of rules.

My 600 DE faced his 1000 O&G with 400 in Lords and nearly 300 in Hero’s . And any rule that played to his disadvantage like releasing Fanatics to my CoK in turn 5 instead of the Harpies in turn 3 and 4. Sneaky stealing on a 2+. A Special Character that delays 2 units selected by him until turn 2. Spider Rider bows with Poison. 5+AS Goblin Spearmen, lvl 4 Goblin Caster with all spells and +5 to cast.

I was so irritated and the win did little to relive my anger.

Still 600 DE faced 1000 O&G and won. Im the better general, les points no cheating.

Go Dark Elves.

It’s all down to you sadly, you have to be the judge on if a player is a good sport. I won’t play that opponent again and I learnt a few valuable lessons about knowing my enemy a little better.

Cheats exist in all game, sadly in WH the advantage can be underhandedly included by not listing the correct points.

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:59 am

As what the rest have said. Some people can be ignorant of the rules but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are douches. Best way is to politely tell the guy that his army composition is illegal and point him the the right direction (the BRB if needed). He may not have known he was cheating and to be honest with what he did, he pretty much gimped himself by barely having enough troops (though that is a different topic altogether). Atleast you got to encounter this during a pick up game and would have helped him should he decide to join tourneys later.

If he did it a tourney (highly unlikely but hey everything is possible) and pretended not to know or atleast argues about it then maybe then he should get smacked in the head. :roll:

Flash29 · Post by **Flash29** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:08 pm

I have had this on a tourny, against a dwarf player. It was 2000 points and i had a magic heavy list. now upon arrival they announced that you are allowed to play special characters....thx for the heads up after a 1 hour drive. So my first battle is against this dwarf who had the special character with the anvil (thorek??) i noticed that he had almost nothing else on the table(i usually don't play dwarfs but his army was exeptionally small) so i tell this to him, he said it's because the special char is so expencive, so i ask him to see if he's not to expencive for the limit. He sayed no and we play, I do a losing draw since my shadow death combo did nothing and my hydra's both got hit by the same flaming grudgethrower. and he used some strong runes to clear up my 2 units of 8 shades. yet i still kill the character with 4 shades charging with okkam.

after the game we tally points and he appearently didn't know that 1/4 from 2000 is 500 not 505 which is the value of the character. the organizers just kinda muffled it away and made him redo his list diffrently, the resulst stood. i later also discovered that that character should have been general as he only had ld 9 heros on the board and that character is ld 10. The only thing you can do is make a note of it i suppose, since if you make a fuss you either get a bad name, or bad sportsmanship which, although unfair, isn't realy pleasant.