Daemons, Brets, or Tomb Kings? Can not decide!

[Non sence1]

Hello all, i am in need of your help. I have collected a respectible force of Dark Elves and am looking to extend my hobbying to another army. And am stuck between Daemons, Brets, or Tomb Kings. I am looking for a play style alot different from Dark Elves ( i like it, just need a change).

I also am just looking for an army with awesome models and fluff. I love the look of Daemon Lords and Heroes. And the Tomb Kings have some pretty awesome choice in their own. And the Brets have pretty cool Fluff.

Can someone expericanced with or against these three armies tell me about their play style and which might be best for me?

[Sisstros]

What kind of Dark Elf armies have you been running?

With Daemons you will essentially be spending your games running at your opponents. You'r opportunities to play a defensive or counter attacking game will be limited unless your opponent is outfitted purely for close combat. Your options for determining a personal play style will be limited to thinking about how many troops from each god you have; or whether you go for a Greater Daemon general or a Herald general.

With Brets and Tomb Kings I think there are more options for different personalised competitive builds. With the Brets you could go Knight heavy, or Peasant heavy, or a balance of each; with the Tomb Kings there are monsters, chariots, archers, Tomb Guard, magic and artillery which could be weighted in points depending on how you feel like playing.

I have never played as any of these armies myself so these are just observations.

With regards to the Brets specifically there is an established youtube channel with a veteran Brettonian player (he has also just started up a Beastmen army so I gather). If you wanted to learn more about that army then watching a few of his reports might be worthwhile:

http://www.youtube.com/user/OnceBitten360?feature=g-u

I don't personally know of any resources for Daemons or Tomb Kings that you could look at other than the forums dedicated to the respective armies.

Best of luck.

[Non sence1]

Thank you very much! i went looking around on the daemon forum and im thinking they are out. I never really liked the idea of running an army made up of just pure evil ( i know, dark elves arnt much better). As for my play style, i think i play a little more aggressive with my DE. Ive always liked TK but not really sure on how they play. And i like brets because i like that they are an army of good and their fluff is cool. Do the Knights models look much different from eachother or do they have a bland appearance on the battlefield? (never played them or Tomb Kings)

EDIT: and thank you for the link to Brets, i am going to have a look at it right now

[Saintofm]

Thank you very much! i went looking around on the daemon forum and im thinking they are out. I never really liked the idea of running an army made up of just pure evil ( i know, dark elves arnt much better). As for my play style, i think i play a little more aggressive with my DE. Ive always liked TK but not really sure on how they play. And i like brets because i like that they are an army of good and their fluff is cool. Do the Knights models look much different from eachother or do they have a bland appearance on the battlefield? (never played them or Tomb Kings)

EDIT: and thank you for the link to Brets, i am going to have a look at it right now

I can't tell the difference between knightly orders that much either, but each unit has their strengths and weaknessess.

Starting with the knights, the Knigths of the Realm are your standard heavy cave. Slightly better WS and LD than the common man, and with their brettonian formation thy can outran enemies without the need of large units (3 wide has it's benafits). Moreover, the modles on the flanks of a unit in this formaion can attack on the charge. Thus a deadly unit of knights just got harder to fight.

Errentry have typical states for a human, but are imune to psycology on the charge. Even with weapon skill 3, their lances allow them to have the strength to drop most monsters.

Questing knights are the most uniqe looking as they are armed with great weapons. This means they will never be the first to attack an enemy most of the time, but they hit with strength 6 attacks, making sure even giants and dragons watch their step. Add imune to psycology, and the unit ignores all the horrors of war.

Grail knights are a unit of champions and act accordingly. They also always start with the blessing regardless if the army prays. And I'll just say this: That 6/5+ ward save is a pain in the neck

[Non sence1]

Thank you very much for your imput! i im starting to like the look of brets but for some reason can't let go of the idea of tomb kings. I dont think i will like their play style all the much because it has alot to do with magic. Some is ok but tomb kings seem to revolve around it. I do like that they have a wider verity of troop choices the brets but then there is alot of decission making on what to buy for them.... This is frustrating

[Saintofm]

From what I can tell, take a Waspenxr, upgrade it to attack enemies with the template attack, and get the breath attack for good measure (a little over a dozen hits from the template, about four more from the Tomb guard, maybe a couple from the breath attack, and D6 from the thunderstomp, that enough kill for you?)

I know they have their own version of a cygore (rule wise for the most part) if you want a anti magic list

[Katon]

As a long time Dark Elf player I have recently switched armies, like you I considered Bretonnians and Daemons. Off the bat I dismissed daemons, I have found no WH player who enjoys playing them and I wanted a switch to a different army.

If you’re looking for a challenge I think you will find it with TK or brets much more than daemons. I can’t say much for TK. The few times I have played them I have found the games a little boring to play out but ive only seen one army build of massed chariots and a few large blocks of troops.

I in the end settled on brets so I will share with you what I know and it may help your decision more.

As Sisstors linked OnceBitten360 is a decent bret general and his battle reps are worth spending some time watching as he doesn’t play one power build he varies his list each battle and is generally successful in his games considering brets aren’t highly rated.

Thank you very much! i went looking around on the daemon forum and im thinking they are out. I never really liked the idea of running an army made up of just pure evil ( i know, dark elves arnt much better). As for my play style, i think i play a little more aggressive with my DE. Ive always liked TK but not really sure on how they play. And i like brets because i like that they are an army of good and their fluff is cool. Do the Knights models look much different from eachother or do they have a bland appearance on the battlefield? (never played them or Tomb Kings)

EDIT: and thank you for the link to Brets, i am going to have a look at it right now

All bret knights are similar, it’s a biproduct of the limited amount of models gw gave them and their age. All their knightly mounts are from the same cast, the best way to address differences is with the heralds the horses have or colouring of the unit.

All the knights have differences but off the bat most players wont notice.

Knights Errant are your cheapest knights. They are young knights not yet fully titled. I used GWs old 1980s Knights of the Realm as my Errant as they look distinctively less flashy. Apart from that the Errant are considered young so riders with no helms seems to be the way players show that they are different.

Knights of the Realm are your bread and butter unit. The same mounts as the other knights they are generally helmeted compared to their errant counter parts and you could perhaps look to pick out more detail on the armour and banner.

Questing knights are the most distinctive as their knights use GWs and are all equipped with two handed swords. I have yet to use them successfully, their ASL and lower AS then Errant and Knights of the Realm make them a suboptimal choice for me at least.

Grail knights are the final knights, these knights are metal and so have more detail. Their armour is decorated with symbols of the grail and all the knights have a cape with a grail on it.
All the knights are similar but easy to add defining touches that show what they are.

As a long time DE player I found brets to be a very different play style. Cheap peasants with flaming long bows and Men at Arms with S4 and the ability to take the blessing the knights get if you add in a caster and the prayer icon.
Trebuchets are amazing cheaper than our RBT by 10 points they are the best stone thrower in game at S5 and 10 under hole.

Peg knights are also different used similarly to harpies they are much more durable and as part of the FaQ now get vanguard to make them a real nuisance.

They are still a technical army to play in the same way as DE, they aren’t just point and click as when cavalry get bogged down in combat they lose. It’s the same across the whole bret army. In a few of my games ive played a whole game without preforming a frontal charge just so I can get a victory. Tedious but rewarding. A much nicer way for me to play than my opponent complaining im using a hydra or CoB. With brets they struggle to complain, if you win you were generally the better player.

[Non sence1]

Katon, thank you for your imput on Brets, very helpful and very interesting. I like the fluff, and might consider getting my painting skills a little better if i started them to help with the diversity issue. I think i have eliminated daemons and TK but now i new army has come to my attention... What are some interesting things that can be said for skaven?

[Katon]

Skaven were the army I sold to buy my brets so I’ll comment here as well.

I sold my Skaven because the play style wasn’t what I wanted, the army looks cool from the outset, massive blocks of infantry and plenty of unusual warmachines.

Sadly with skaven all the games I played were all or nothing games. You are at the mercy of the dice with the majority of the army. If all your cannons hit home and you don’t end up blowing yourself up it’s a win, if it all goes wrong there isn’t much you can do to pull it back. The army is heavily dependant on leadership and having a general and BSB nearby. Though they are important to elves in a skaven army they are essential.

The army bonus of Strength in Numbers is good as you bolster the units leadership based on the number of ranks it has. Sadly only as a maximum of +3, so slaves are at max ld5 unless you get a general near, then your up to ld10. 50 slaves with Shields is 125pts that’s ld 10 near a general and in most cases stubborn if run 5x10, the ultimate tar pit you could ever want. Sadly a side charge will remove rank bonus for both steadfast and strength in numbers. This means you play much like dwarfs and keep your rats close together and not allow any side charges.

Their heros and lords are generally cheap and you can take as many as you need and equipped them to do whatever you want. Their lvl4 caster comes at lvl4 as standard and you can field him at as low as 1000 points which makes him a potent force. They have two lores of magic and the lvl4 can mix from both lores when you roll for spells. The addition of his Warpstone Tokens (+1dice to casting attempt) means you can cast with 7 dice if you badly need that spell off.

Clan rats are their standard core and are your best bunkers for hero’s, they can also use weapon team as a sort of add on to the unit like empire detachments. The weapon teams wont win you can games but they are fun to use and increase the random element of failure across the army.

Slaves are the ultimate cheap tarpit unit. I ran x2 units of 50 and even a healthy number of swordmasters will struggle to grind them down, with shields the parry save is enough to merit their uses. With slaves if they are engaged in combat you can shoot or cast magic into that combat and randomise the attacks. The new template rules mean that the randomisation is limited as you can place the template to hit the enem rather than risking your rats.

Stormvermin are their heavy hitters, better WS Armour and with halberds they are good active combat generators. Most players ive played against run them with a special character that buffs the units stats. I don’t use SP’s and I never brought at Storm Vermin, I went cheap massive units and plenty of warmachines.

Plague Monks are basically frenzied rats. Poor WS and Poor Int leaves them struggling but their frenzy and AHW makes up for their short comings. Coupled with T4 they are the more durable of the infantry in the skaven army. And respond well to most of their magic buffs. +1atatck on top of frenzy or poison attacks both buff this unit well.

Giant rats are a sort of throw away harpies styles unit at I think 30odd points for 5 they are the best redirectors for price available. I used to run 3 units of 5 just to give me a tactical edge and some cover bonuses vs shooting armies.

Night runners and gutter runners are their scout/ skirmish equivalent. One is better than the other though I don’t have the book to check. The better of the two units has the infiltrator special rule. Putting them behind your enemy’s back lines on latter turns, their slings at x2 shot mixed with a poisoned attacks upgrade will make short work of warmachines as poison bypasses the machines T7. Running 2x7 units was my set up, making may a dwarf and empire player cry. The unit isn’t bad in combat either with I5 and 2 atatcks each. All the unit get a 6+ward in the form of dodge special rule.

Globadiers are an odd unit, they have throwing weapons that ignore armour which is good against cav but I have not seen may armys run cav in 8th my way so they miss out. The clan rats can take a mortar which does the same job, wounding with no AS on a 5 under the small template. That weapon team felt more cost effective than Globadiers.

Warplock Jezzail are their long ranged snipers. I think S6 with Armour Piercing they leave all cave dead before they can get across the board. I never ran them, not a fan of shooting though ive run against them a few times and they will remove all cav before the unit gets into combat.

Plague Censer Bearers are another unit I never used. They are stubborn within 12” on plague monks and have a fail as a weapon, that in base contact causes a Toughness test or kills the opponent outright, they are expensive for that they do and I never ran them as a plague furnace has the same toughness test attack they do but when fielded with Monks makes them unbreakable.

Rat Ogres are the skavens monstrous infantry S5 and T6 with 3 attacks and frenzy they can build up some combat res. Their lack of armour lets them down but are a fun unit to use at low points levels. At 2400 I ran 8 with a special character than can either give them an additional attack, regen or something else I cant remember.

Warpligtning cannon, just a cannon that uses the small template rather than a bouncing ball. Strength determined by the artillery dice.

Plague catapult, much like a stone thrower, never used, cannon looks better.

Doomwheel, random movement chariot type model that can shoot 3 lightning bolts per turn at a artillery dices strength and multiply to D6 o D3 can’t remember, good at monster killing if you park next to one.

Hell pit, I won’t describe this because I never used it and in the current gamming climate its not hard to take out.

I cant review all the units, your best looking at the army book as there was plenty of units and weapon teams and magic items I never touched upon.

Large block of units that grind down the opponent along with loads of warmachines and crazy items that can blow the enemy up. Just remember if it can hurt the enemy it has a chance of hurting your army too. It’s this uncertainty and randomness that makes skaven fun and competitive but can be tedious if you’re looking for a easy to play army that won’t fall apart on a bad dice roll.

Ive been told by players that they are overpowered. The same way that dark elves are, it was my factor in selling them and moving on. Depending on what list or army type you want to run they can be fun for you but a few good games in a row wont see you making many friends sadly.

There are the screaming bell and the plague furnace, both have 2 pages of rules in the skaven rule book. Go over to the underempire fourm and you can find more there.

[Non sence1]

wow, thank you again you have been a very big help! i like that they are a horde army rather than a elites, kinda different than dark elves. But the all or nothing thing kinda scares me, but i still like them. i might go have a stroll around the under empire fourm and see what i can find

[Flash29]

very nice revieuw but i'd like to make some notes

. Sadly a side charge will remove rank bonus for both steadfast and strength in numbers. This means you play much like dwarfs and keep your rats close together and not allow any side charges.

Their heros and lords are generally cheap and you can take as many as you need and equipped them to do whatever you want. Their lvl4 caster comes at lvl4 as standard and you can field him at as low as 1000 points which makes him a potent force. They have two lores of magic and the lvl4 can mix from both lores when you roll for spells. The addition of his Warpstone Tokens (+1dice to casting attempt) means you can cast with 7 dice if you badly need that spell off.

Clan rats are their standard core and are your best bunkers for hero’s, they can also use weapon team as a sort of add on to the unit like empire detachments. The weapon teams wont win you can games but they are fun to use and increase the random element of failure across the army.


With slaves if they are engaged in combat you can shoot or cast magic into that combat and randomise the attacks. The new template rules mean that the randomisation is limited as you can place the template to hit the enem rather than risking your rats.



Plague Monks are basically frenzied rats. Poor WS and Poor Int leaves them struggling but their frenzy and AHW makes up for their short comings. Coupled with T4 they are the more durable of the infantry in the skaven army. And respond well to most of their magic buffs. +1atatck on top of frenzy or poison attacks both buff this unit well.



Hell pit, I won’t describe this because I never used it and in the current gamming climate its not hard to take out.

having played and played again the number one player in the lowlands who got this titel by playing skaven i know through and through the broken rules and cheap tricks which makes this army great


-a side charge takes away rank bonus (and thus 3 ld ) if the unit has 2 ranks left at the combat ress fase it does not take away steadfast as you are steadfast if you have more ranks not rankbonus. Great tarpit

the hero's are generaly cheap although you will usually run the nessesary as your offence wil be in shooting troops. they have a assortment of good magical items, great assassins (basic 4+ ws and 50 points magical items) and very cheap characters a warplock engineer not upgraded for sorcery is 15 points and ld 5 (boosting slaves to 8 but taking away their main advantage of shooting in them)

they can be take as speedbumps and redirects, park it 1 inch in front of your opponent, he can only overrun 2d6, rince and repeat he will kill it and you have a
another turn of shooting.

also with 6dices possible to cast (generated tokens count against the maximum and so its impossible to use 7) that dreaded thirteenth is quite possible every turn, will kill any infantry model easily, without save(outright kills 4d6 models).

clanrats are great but their weaponteams even more so, the mortars are move and fire, and are the best one, they don't cause panic, can use their parent units line of sight and get a 4+ ward while close to parent unit. they can also use the parent units modified leadership.

thanks to gw brilliant errata's when you shoot a template every model under it is hit, logical right? And when the book was writing, a combat being a swirling melee, you could shoot at the combat and hit skavenslaves on a 4+ (every hit was rolled). that has been scratched in the erratta, so skavenslaves are never hit by spells, classic shooting and the like. can you imagine getting your 10 knight deathstar stuck, only to get pounded by armour ignoring or high strenth attacks, while all you can do is wack at the swarming skaven flood which is not hit.

plague monks, on their own, i wouldn't recommend, but add a plague furnace and a magical banner. the furnace is very powerfull a mount for a hero. it is placed in the center of the unit does a ton of damage has good attacks against both infantry and cavalry and makes the unit unbreakable. also note that the unit can get a 1 use only banner that makes them able to re-roll hits and wounds for 1 combat fase

the hellpit is immensly powerfull if you don't have flaming, its the second reason everybody has flaming attacks (first being our war hydra.