High Elves next?

[Gidean]

None of them have thought of that yet I like the frost phoenix T6, 6 wounds, WS 6, 4x S6 magical attacks, 5+ ward and armour save - plus everything in base contact is ASL and -1 strength.

So far it looks to be a very sensible and balanced book. Everything is a little cheaper or got better because of martial prowess. All infantry and cavalry now shoot/fight in 3 ranks and everything still has ASF. Watch out for dragon princes, they are now m9, the champ has 50 points for magic items and they can take a 75 point banner.

To be fair, the Sword Masters really lost out as did small units of WLs because they lost their re-rolls. But as someone pointed out, the re-roll thing was a power granted to them by 8th edition rules for a 7th edition book that didn't have that ability. It was probably never intended. Martial Prowess mitigates that but does not quite equal it. But I agree that they got a boost overall with cheaper points cost on units, command sections. bolt thowers, and characters. Plus both phoenixes are a great new addition. The synergy will play out well. They will slaughter us in hand to hand combat. But I think we can still outshoot them.

Not sure many generals will take the expensive items for the champ in a DP unit and the expensive banner. Funny how they have a 75 point allotment for a banner when the most expensive one they can have is 55 points.

[Dalamar]

Funny how they have a 75 point allotment for a banner when the most expensive one they can have is 55 points.

I didn't notice that at first, I was sure BRB has a 75 points banner, but no!
Heh, they have allowance the can't use.

My guess is GW goes in increments of 25 points, and they wanted them to be able to take all banners, so instead of putting unusual 55 points allowance, they just jumped to the next 25.

[Cold73]

Sword masters lost out....hmm...sure they have lost their rerolls to hit...but since they hit most things on 3+ anway that is not that big of a loss on average rolls...
but they are a full 2 poinst cheaper then what they were.

[Firebird4life]

Just another example Matt Ward's ridiculousness as a Codex/Army Book author. His books always end up making the army at or near the top of competitive armies. His Grey Knights dominated until they released 6th Ed 40K. His new Daemons are pretty damned awesome right now. And these new High Elves...is there any downside to playing them? They've still got ASF (even though there's no fluff to support it), cheaper units, more magic items, great flying units (especially those Phoenixes)..."balanced book" my butt.

[Gidean]

Sword masters lost out....hmm...sure they have lost their rerolls to hit...but since they hit most things on 3+ anway that is not that big of a loss on average rolls...
but they are a full 2 poinst cheaper then what they were.

But they don't have ASF for sure. They use to. That was huge. Put our witches against Swordmasters now. Guess who is striking first? With re-rolls even. And it is good that our ladies are a lower WS. That actually jacks up their chances of getting poison hits in this scenario.

That's what I mean by SMs having lost out in this new book. Yes they are still good but not the un-godly troops they were.

[Rabidnid]

Just another example Matt Ward's ridiculousness as a Codex/Army Book author. His books always end up making the army at or near the top of competitive armies. His Grey Knights dominated until they released 6th Ed 40K. His new Daemons are pretty damned awesome right now. And these new High Elves...is there any downside to playing them? They've still got ASF (even though there's no fluff to support it), cheaper units, more magic items, great flying units (especially those Phoenixes)..."balanced book" my butt.

Awww, would you like some cheese with that whine?

The high magic lore is bizarre, very short ranged and only a couple of the spells are boosted. Teclis got spayed, the book of hoeth is sensible and their one magic sword is practically unusable. Banner of the world dragon does make up for that though , it will have DoC squealing their little hearts out while they try to learn tactics to deal with it - or that there is such a thing as tactic in some cases. Its at best a mid tier book, as the HE have lost all of their magic bonuses except when using their very idiosyncratic lore, swordmasters and white lions have lost their re-rolls. The only things that are cheaper are things that have lost abilites since the last book, mages their +1 to dispell and all the GW users their re-rolls. Bolt throwers only have two wounds so they are now 70 points rather than 100.

If the rumours hold true then DE and WE will also be ASF in their next books. ASF DE will certainly give you something to squeal about

[Rabidnid]

Sword masters lost out....hmm...sure they have lost their rerolls to hit...but since they hit most things on 3+ anway that is not that big of a loss on average rolls...
but they are a full 2 poinst cheaper then what they were.

But they don't have ASF for sure. They use to. That was huge. Put our witches against Swordmasters now. Guess who is striking first? With re-rolls even. That's what I mean by SMs having lost out in this new book. Yes they are still good but not the un-godly troops they were.

SM have done the worst of anything in the new book. I have lots, so I will keep using them, but the loss of re-rolls is a big deal for them.

Overall DE are stupidly good versus HE. ASF is a pain, but I never had an issue with DE versus HE when I was running DE.

[Clockwork]

Just another example Matt Ward's ridiculousness as a Codex/Army Book author. His books always end up making the army at or near the top of competitive armies. His Grey Knights dominated until they released 6th Ed 40K. His new Daemons are pretty damned awesome right now. And these new High Elves...is there any downside to playing them? They've still got ASF (even though there's no fluff to support it), cheaper units, more magic items, great flying units (especially those Phoenixes)..."balanced book" my butt.

This is probably the first time I've heard that about Daemons. Maybe you're talking about that other game with round bases, but here in Fantasy I thought the general consensus was that Daemons are ok, but not that great (excluding Skullcannons, which don't make an army).

Fortunately, its clear you don't know what you are talking about. ASF is nerfed on all the things that were amazing with it, the cheaper units are still expensive relative to everyone else, they lost magic items, and everyone is getting good monsters so why call High Elves out on it?

This book isn't Ogres, and its not quite Warriors either. IIRC Matt Ward had nothing to do with either of them. Frankly, Banner of the Whine Dragon aside, I think its one of the better books to come out of 8th so far.

[Daeron]

Mind the tone of the arguments please. I'm sure we can keep the discussion equally interesting!

From what I've seen, a lot of the units seem more balanced than before... but it's difficult to really measure balance. HE still is an army you may not enjoy getting into close combat with and their shooting just got better. With their shooting better, our shooting less effective because of the blankets of ward saves, it might still be a pain to fight. That said... I may prefer it this way. I think it will still be a challenge (perhaps bigger) to fight them, but it seems like they'll be able to offer a lot more variety. They can rely more on their support, but then it becomes harder to blanket the ward saves. If they rely more on the combat units, then it may become easier for us to control and evade.
My club's HE player is still getting ready, but damn I'm looking forward to those first games

[Rabidnid]

Mind the tone of the arguments please. I'm sure we can keep the discussion equally interesting!

From what I've seen, a lot of the units seem more balanced than before... but it's difficult to really measure balance. HE still is an army you may not enjoy getting into close combat with and their shooting just got better. With their shooting better, our shooting less effective because of the blankets of ward saves, it might still be a pain to fight. That said... I may prefer it this way. I think it will still be a challenge (perhaps bigger) to fight them, but it seems like they'll be able to offer a lot more variety. They can rely more on their support, but then it becomes harder to blanket the ward saves. If they rely more on the combat units, then it may become easier for us to control and evade.
My club's HE player is still getting ready, but damn I'm looking forward to those first games

Me too, these will be my first games for about 8 months. I do like what has been done with them. The trick will be sorting through high magic and seeing if all those spells are actually there for a reason. I'm beginning to get the suspicion that a lot of thought has gone into the, book of hoeth, magic lore and the BotWD.

I never had any spears, just LSG and archers, so I like that they are now much better. DPs are pretty amazing and the reavers are cheap enough to run lots of. (i have about 20 of the LoB ones I got for $2 each) I really miss cold one cavalry, so running my left over cold ones as dragon princes should be a giggle.