How would you rate the new HE army book?

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jyrik
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How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by jyrik »

Hello

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but I couldn't find any threads on it so I am sorry if I've missed it.

Basically I'm wondering how the new book compares to the old one for us druchii.

Thanks!
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Ming »

Short answer: a little less powerful, way more fun and characterful to play. Still very competitive.
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Dalamar
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Dalamar »

More balanced in comparison to the other 8th edition books, no ridiculously overpowered magic, just a really strong one (If you don't believe me, try dispelling Fiery Conflagration).

Their units are amazing and surprisingly durable (4+ ward PG, 3+ save against shooting Lions, Dragon Princes with a ward save), lore attribute to boost the ward saves that are *everywhere*. Top it off with a Frost Phoenix that will pretty much increase the T of the important unit to 4 (unheard of for elves!)

Last time I played against HE ward saves built I fought 2 units of 4+ ward phoenix guard, and a mini deathstar of 3+ ward white lions... Nothing would die.

Seeing High Elves like this I have a thought in my mind that I hope will come true:
High Elves - most durable of the elves.
Dark Elves - most destructive of the elves.
Wood Elves - fastest of the elves.
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jyrik
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by jyrik »

I was looking at some reviews and most of the changes seem reasonable except for the wards which are just plain nasty. Also I think that swordmasters are now far more balanced, i.e. they are slightly more resistant to shooting (with ward and buffs) but they have normal ASF which just makes sense.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Rabidnid »

jyrik wrote:I was looking at some reviews and most of the changes seem reasonable except for the wards which are just plain nasty. Also I think that swordmasters are now far more balanced, i.e. they are slightly more resistant to shooting (with ward and buffs) but they have normal ASF which just makes sense.



They really don't hit very hard outside white lions. PG are really nice with the ward, and I-6/WS-5/ld-9/fear cannot be over rated. I was running swordmasters, but without re-rolls they are just not worth it any more. The biggest changes is all the core cavalry and the much cheaper bolt throwers. I've found they grind down T-3 fairly well, but basic t-4 armies are a bit much. The older books out-magic then fairly badly, but that will change as they get spayed as well. The lack of magic items is the biggest change. HE have 2 or 3 fantastic items, but that is well down from the 15+ they used to have. Core is solid, while specials and elites are fairly average.

Overall a very fun, practical and strong T-3 army. It just requires a little more finesse than a blanket T-4 army.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Ming »

I would add that their new monster is really powerful and hard to kill.
Frostheart phoenix synergize well with their troops.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Gidean »

It's a good solid book. As good as ours and don't let a High Elf Player tell you otherwise. I'm one so I can say that. ;) The only down side... Mat Ward took away the incentive to play with Sword Masters. Similar to our Black Guard. Still a good troop type but there are better selections for your points. I guess we can't have everything. They will beat us in the shooting war but we will win in melee. So don't try to out shoot them.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Datalink7 »

I think that they are a really solid army. A bit of a learning curve to make everything work together and figure out what is the right selection for your playstyle. However, in the hands of an experienced general (and I know some will disagree with me), I think they are a top tier army.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Rabidnid »

Datalink7 wrote:I think that they are a really solid army. A bit of a learning curve to make everything work together and figure out what is the right selection for your playstyle. However, in the hands of an experienced general (and I know some will disagree with me), I think they are a top tier army.



Until WoC stop taking 7 out of 10 top places in any given tournament, that is not going to be true. Its going to be weird playing against DE for a little while until we get the hang of things, but I suspect that Eternal Hatred will continue to give DE an edge. Having said that I play both armies and consistently beat DE with HE because I know the strengths of both armies.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Datalink7 »

Rabidnid wrote:
Datalink7 wrote:I think that they are a really solid army. A bit of a learning curve to make everything work together and figure out what is the right selection for your playstyle. However, in the hands of an experienced general (and I know some will disagree with me), I think they are a top tier army.



Until WoC stop taking 7 out of 10 top places in any given tournament, that is not going to be true. Its going to be weird playing against DE for a little while until we get the hang of things, but I suspect that Eternal Hatred will continue to give DE an edge. Having said that I play both armies and consistently beat DE with HE because I know the strengths of both armies.


Well maybe it's just my local Meta, but WoC hasn't won a local tournament more than twice in the past 8 months or so, and they rarely place top 3. And these aren't small tournaments. My FLGS's monthly tournaments are 30 players (that's the max it can hold, but it almost always maxes out), from players from three different states.

In fact, the last winner was High Elf (previous was Empire, then DoC, then Ogre I think, then WoC).
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Rabidnid »

Datalink7 wrote:
Rabidnid wrote:
Datalink7 wrote:I think that they are a really solid army. A bit of a learning curve to make everything work together and figure out what is the right selection for your playstyle. However, in the hands of an experienced general (and I know some will disagree with me), I think they are a top tier army.



Until WoC stop taking 7 out of 10 top places in any given tournament, that is not going to be true. Its going to be weird playing against DE for a little while until we get the hang of things, but I suspect that Eternal Hatred will continue to give DE an edge. Having said that I play both armies and consistently beat DE with HE because I know the strengths of both armies.


Well maybe it's just my local Meta, but WoC hasn't won a local tournament more than twice in the past 8 months or so, and they rarely place top 3. And these aren't small tournaments. My FLGS's monthly tournaments are 30 players (that's the max it can hold, but it almost always maxes out), from players from three different states.

In fact, the last winner was High Elf (previous was Empire, then DoC, then Ogre I think, then WoC).

Interesting, we see nothing but WoC for the most part. Lots of diversity in lists but the top 10 is mostly WoC in practically every event. Might just be all the douchbags play WoC rather than anything special about the army. I've beaten the only 2 WoC armies I've played in the last year or so.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Datalink7 »

Rabidnid wrote:Interesting, we see nothing but WoC for the most part. Lots of diversity in lists but the top 10 is mostly WoC in practically every event. Might just be all the douchbags play WoC rather than anything special about the army. I've beaten the only 2 WoC armies I've played in the last year or so.


We have a pretty diverse field. A typical tournament range will be something like:

Beastmen: 1-2
Bretonnia: 0-2
Chaos Dwarves: 0-1
DoC: 3-5
Dark Elves: 2-4
Dwarves: 0-2
Empire: 1-4
High Elves: 2-4
Lizardmen: 1-3
Ogre Kingdoms: 2-4
Orcs & Goblins: 1-3
Skaven: 2-3
Tomb Kings: 1-2
Vampire Counts: 2-5
WoC: 3-5
Wood Elves: 0-1

Not super accurate as I've never actually written down stats, but based on what I feel I typically see having played there for t he past 5 years or so.

The best players for our local area play Vamps, WoC, Empire, DoC, Skaven, Dark Elves. But it is only 2 players that are really good that play WoC. The other WoC players aren't too bad but they typically go something like 2-1.
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Gidean
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Gidean »

WoC and OK score consistently high here.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Datalink7 »

Gidean wrote:WoC and OK score consistently high here.


Ogres used to dominate pretty consistently around here as well, but they haven't for a while. I think the last time they won was about 9 month ago when I won with them, but it was a doubles tournament. I was paired with a Vamp player.

WoC was very dominant after the book came out for a few months, but they've tapered off significantly in their success in the last 5 months or so.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Setomidor »

Deamons and WoC tend to do very well here and are common to the point that I designed an (old book) army to be awesome against DoC/WoC and won the last big tournament (60 players) with it :D

Two really strong HE armies were present at the event, one had double WL hordes (one with flaming, one with BoWD), 4 RBT, 7 units of Reavers as core, eagles, Lvl4 Heavens, Seahelm BSB (he ran one WL horde 3 models wide and 10 deep, and the SH allows him to reform before combat). I actually won 12-8 against this army by playing conservatively for the easy points while avoiding his big blocks.

The other strong HE army was focused around cavalry, lots of reavers/silver helms and a Dragon Prince bus with BoWD (of course). The bus had a Lvl4 mage in the back ranks and three fighting characters in the front with very killy load out. Something like a Lord with +3 Strength sword, Dawnstone, Other Tricksters Shard flanked by a BSB with +2 Strength sword and another with +1 Strength and Potion of Strength. All in all the characters were able to dish out a horrifying amount of S5-S8 attacks, ASF, while being extremely mobile, sporting a 2++ against any magic, magical weapons, or flaming attacks (and of course they all had 2+ AS or better).

I think that the HE book in general is top middle tier with a few books that feels generally stronger (WoC, DoC, VC, Empire, DE?). However, the BoWD is hands down the strongest item in the entire game and makes it possible to build horrible units like the DP bus above. I think that the strength of the HE book is determined by the restrictions they get, in a pure rulebook version where they can bring double Frost Phoenix, use 6 dice per spell, and bring Book of Hoeth for casting while hiding behind the BoWD to soak the damages from any miscasts they are probably one of the strongest books there is.
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Re: How would you rate the new HE army book?

Post by Gidean »

Setomidor wrote:
I think that the HE book in general is top middle tier with a few books that feels generally stronger (WoC, DoC, VC, Empire, DE?). However, the BoWD is hands down the strongest item in the entire game and makes it possible to build horrible units like the DP bus above. I think that the strength of the HE book is determined by the restrictions they get, in a pure rulebook version where they can bring double Frost Phoenix, use 6 dice per spell, and bring Book of Hoeth for casting while hiding behind the BoWD to soak the damages from any miscasts they are probably one of the strongest books there is.



I agree with the above. Our pendant and OLD dagger use to do that for us but they are gone. Our best item now seems to be the Cloak of Twilight which is really in the realm of reasonable. I agree that High Elves are top of middle tier. I think they can be in top tier if the player makes an exploitive list. The above elements are pretty close to that. Like I said, WoC and Ogres have done the best in our area. But for our two BIG tournaments the overall winner was Orcs and Goblins in one and High Elves in another. But those were two outstanding players (One was Hinge) and they could probably win with using a paper clip, ballpoint pen, rubber band, and tweezers (citing an old MacGyver joke). ;)
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