Wood Elves

For discussion about all the lesser races of Warhammer. Talk about armies, tactics and lists to take on the Druchii here...

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Dalamar
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Dalamar »

They fly 20 inches and the breath template I believe is 10 inches in length? If you are in range then so are my Chimeras and DP.


That's 20" fly + 8.5" template which is still out of range, and even at exactly 30" range you'd waste the breath to touch a single model with the tip of the template.

I don't have the book, I'm thinking like this:

300 odd points for archmage
130 for waystalker?
around 140 for footed bsb with waystone?

625 minimum core, lets make it 650 (I think I can squeeze in 3 units of GG and 2 of GR or 2 and 2) GG equipped one with hagbane and one with trueflight. I don't see the need for magic arrows on riders. Starfire if there are points available for 3rd unit.

450 rare for 2 units of 10 waywatchers and eagle

Sisters are 1 point over warlocks right?
140 with musician so 280 for 2 units of 5 with musicians.

Leaves me about 500 points to play around with. I don't see the "Have my cake and eat it too" case. The 500 points I'd probably spend on 2 minimum sized units of warhawks, maybe 4 models each since I don't know how many points they are and then bulk up the rest. Maybe second eagle.

There is also no 1" rule for deploying terrain. Technically you can put terrain pieces on top of one another. Building on a hill, forested hill, fence in the woods etc. Keeping terrain spread apart is an old edition legacy (used to be minimum 6" apart)

I don't see them being a top tier army either. More of a middle of the line but only because tournaments run a 20-0 scoring system. It won't be hard to pull of tiny wins with wood elves.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Calisson wrote:I understand that the solution against a slippery evading shooty T3 no armour army hiding in woods is more magic missiles?


This is what I am thinking.

If I were using Wood Elves, Sisters of the Thorn would be a must-take in order to give me more channel attempts and hopefully more dispel dice.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Dalamar »

More magic missiles is a solution until you consider how capable Wood Elves are of sniping out your vulnerable mages, especially the support ones taken to spam magic missiles.

Warlocks will be gold due to their resilience, speed and a good missile
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Killerk »

Haagrum wrote:
Killerk wrote:As to the dark magic combo, the most sneaky one I have manager to come up with is a lowering strenght ona singel model, most player will let that past, and the smacking it with a horror, for d3+1 strenght tests :D.

I was thinking of picking up the WE, as I already have a bunch of models, used them for conversions for my druchii.

Would this even work? Black Horror doesn't cause hits, it just inflicts a "S test or die" condition on any model passed over or touched by the template. "Hits" never comes up.


It's in the description of templates.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Dalamar »

Templates in general do cause hits.

Black Horror (and most other Vortex spells) do not cause hits.

It's a case of specific rule over general one.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Killerk »

In the description of templates it is said quite clearly that models a template goes over are hit. Page 9 if I remember correctly, as I don't have the book with me.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Praetorian1979 »

Killerk wrote:In the description of templates it is said quite clearly that models a template goes over are hit. Page 9 if I remember correctly, as I don't have the book with me.


I took a screenshot of my pdf.

spell description page 61

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3fda0rq9gvvgl ... .13.16.png
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Thraundil »

Yeah I really dont see a discussion here. A magical vortex does not inflict hits, it inflicts "test or die", and the spell wordings all say "any model touched by... test or die". Nowhere is the word "hit" mentioned.

Sure, for a spell like soul stealer, it could be fun. The template touches a number of models, and depending on how you read it the entire unit, or every model, takes an additional d3 hits (I'd probably go with the entire unit, I havent read the exact wording in the WE lore attributes). But this spell specifically causes a hit to a model touched. Black horror does not cause hits. It doesnt even cause wounds, and for example ETC has ruled that banner of the world dragon does not give a save against black horror. Black horror, and similar, simply is "pass this test or you're gone".
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Searinox Nagharha »

Eventually it will come down to the fine print on the actual spell itself. if you look at the spell cards for out Dark Magic, at every spell that is affected by out Lore Attribute its printed at the bottom of the card. but with Black Horror (and Power of Darkness) it's absent because the spells don't get the effect. most likely this will be the same with the Woodies spells
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:
They fly 20 inches and the breath template I believe is 10 inches in length? If you are in range then so are my Chimeras and DP.


That's 20" fly + 8.5" template which is still out of range, and even at exactly 30" range you'd waste the breath to touch a single model with the tip of the template.

I don't have the book, I'm thinking like this:

300 odd points for archmage

Level 4 naked is 220 points so this looks right


Dalamar wrote:130 for waystalker?


Can only spend 25 point on this 90 point Hero. So this is ok.

Dalamar wrote:around 140 for footed bsb with waystone?

More than enough. Captains are on 75 naked.

Dalamar wrote:
625 minimum core, lets make it 650 (I think I can squeeze in 3 units of GG and 2 of GR or 2 and 2) GG equipped one with hagbane and one with trueflight. I don't see the need for magic arrows on riders. Starfire if there are points available for 3rd unit.


Here's your problem. You want 3 units of GG and 2 of Glade rides. Your cheapest magic arrow GG is 150 points for 10. No command. I assume you will want musicians and champs at least. Musicians for all the rally tests you will need after fleeing. So 170 each. So you are up to 510 points. Glade Riders are 95 minimum. No arrow upgrade and no command. So you can only fit in one unit.

Dalamar wrote:450 rare for 2 units of 10 waywatchers and eagle


Correct

Dalamar wrote:Sisters are 1 point over warlocks right?
140 with musician so 280 for 2 units of 5 with musicians.

Leaves me about 500 points to play around with. I don't see the "Have my cake and eat it too" case. The 500 points I'd probably spend on 2 minimum sized units of warhawks, maybe 4 models each since I don't know how many points they are and then bulk up the rest. Maybe second eagle.


Warhawk Riders are 45 points each. Can only take a champ as an upgrade. No magic arrows allowed.

Dalamar wrote:
There is also no 1" rule for deploying terrain. Technically you can put terrain pieces on top of one another. Building on a hill, forested hill, fence in the woods etc. Keeping terrain spread apart is an old edition legacy (used to be minimum 6" apart)


I was talking about you having to keep your 'units' one inch apart. Not the terrain. So you have TWO woods on your side of the table to shove all those units into. No way your opponent will let you scout into HIS woods. You might be able to get two units of GG into one GW woods by bunching them. That's fine. More casualties for my Awakening of the Woods spell when I cast it with IF with my cloak wearing SS. :) Most of the remainder of your army is in open terrain unless you luck out with a building on your side.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Dalamar »

Yeah I did recount the core which will be 2gg and 2 gr.

GG are the only unit sitting in forests, so with a "standard" table with two evenlynspaced forests I'll have two in my deployment zone and at least two on my opponents side to bounce between with the waystone.

And 2 units of 10 GG in one forest are easy. They cube up 3x3+1 and still all 10 shoot.

And open terrain is fine when you're behing the enemy.
I've been olaying this style of army all the way through 6th. And it had even less models. I know what I'm talking about
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Askador »

as far i remember you need to get more then the half of the unit inside the wood to get the benefits. So it should be easy to get even 2 units inside a wood or even more.

Just have 40% of the unit outside and they still get the Wood rules.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Gidean »

Here's a list a buddy of mine put together. I think it has good potential.

The Wild Riders could blow through small units of Elite Cav or even small units of monstrous cav like Skullcrushers/Demigryphs. I like that the scroll is not on the level 4. Since if you lose focus on a dispel you are not allowed to use your scroll that phase.

******************

Lvl 4 - Shadow, bow, 4+ ward - 270
Lvl 1 - Metal, bow, scroll - 110
Waystalker - Bow of Loren - 110
Captain - Hail of Doom Arrow, Starfire arrows - 109


10x Glade Guard - No modifier arrows, musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 180
10x Glade Guard - -3 AS arrows, musician - 180
6x Glade Riders - Poison arrows, musician, standard- 152
6x Glade Riders - Poison arrows, musician, standard - 152


10x Deepwood Scouts - Poison arrows, musician - 170
10x Deepwood Scouts - Poison arrows, musician - 170
6x Wild Riders - Shields, Full Command - 198
6x Wild Riders - Shields, Full Command - 198
6x Sisters of the Thorn, Full Command, - 186 points


5x Waywatchers - 100
5x Waywatchers - 100
Eagle - 50
Eagle - 50
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Dalamar »

I'd suggest to him squeezing the waystone in there somewhere. The threat of a unit of wild riders popping out somewhere from a forest behind you can't be overestimated.

Also, current consensus seems to lean towards only one unit being able to take each kind of arrows since they are magic items and are not excepted from 1 of a kind rule.

MODERATOR'S NOTE: for further discussions on this specific topic, see Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows
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7th edition army book:
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Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Thraundil »

As to the wood elves. I bring a little firsthand experience that I hope to write a short battle rep on later and toss up. The guy is usually a dwarf player, and that showed in the way he played which is why I was able to scrape up a small win... However, my first impressions:

Standard archers with no modifiers to hit or poisoned arrows? Well, these guys will rape war machines. Long range and hard cover needs 6's to hit... 12 archers with poison arrows will land two 6's, thats a bolt thrower dead. Or 2x12 will take down a cannon handily. In addition, the "no to hit modifiers" means always hitting on 3's even on longe range after moving. Lethal to our chaff.

Their fast cav options are on comparable strenghts to ours. Wild riders hit harder than warlocks IF they get the charge, if not they are on even footing (maybe warlocks are even a little better with their wards). Sisters magic is annoying, but not as brutal as that of warlocks. Glade riders ambushing means they are not effective chaff, but can be good war machine hunters too. Although they are outperformed in this regard by standard with poison.

Waywatchers... Now, here's the real killer of the WE army. I underestimated them, I must say. During my advance, a single unit of 10 waywatchers killed 2x5 dark riders and 5 warlocks, while the waystalker inside took 3 rounds of shooting (spread over 5 game turns) to snipe my character in one of the DR units. They suffer from S3, but support them with shadow magic and they will wreak havoc onto armor. The other unit of 10 was misdeployed and he made some movement mistakes, so my 3 pegasus characters took them out along with all his archers... But played a little better, they can be a HUGE threat. Ignoring the juicy 1+, they basically fire bolt thrower shots, although at S3. Respect them, a lot. Dont try to use mobile cover like a dark rider unit to shield your heroes, either... They will just be shot down by the regular archers :p
10 waywatchers hitting on 3+, 6,6 hits wounding pegasus characters on 5+ for 2,2 wounds of which I will fail a ward save. Which means 2x10 waywatchers will, over 2 turns of shooting, kill your 1+/4++ pegasus hero stone dead. Add a stand and shoot reaction somewhere... These guys hurt.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Killerk »

Thraundil wrote:Yeah I really dont see a discussion here. A magical vortex does not inflict hits, it inflicts "test or die", and the spell wordings all say "any model touched by... test or die". Nowhere is the word "hit" mentioned.


Vortex is a template, there for you must use the template rules. And the template rules say that models are hit.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Thraundil »

Killerk wrote:
Thraundil wrote:Yeah I really dont see a discussion here. A magical vortex does not inflict hits, it inflicts "test or die", and the spell wordings all say "any model touched by... test or die". Nowhere is the word "hit" mentioned.


Vortex is a template, there for you must use the template rules. And the template rules say that models are hit.


By this logic, DE dark magic signature should apply to black horror, but it does not. The specific wording in the vortex spells is "any model touched by". You say it yourself, the template rules says any model touched by the template is hit. By the template. Thus suffering the effect.

E.g. a trebutchet inflicts a S10 HIT to the guy in the centre, and S whatever HITS to the guys "hit" by the template.

Whereas a black horror template passing over a model causes this model to be hit with the spell effect. The spell effect reads: "any model touched by... S test or slain". It does not say "any model touched by.... S test or suffer a hit which cause you to die instantly" or a variation thereof.

There is a difference between being hit by something, and suffering a hit from something. A cannon that hits you then gives a S10 hit onto you. The difference lies in the italic and underlined hit.

I'd still argue that black horror does NOT inflict hits. Instead, targets hit by the spell must take a S test or die <-- and this is not a hit. This is an effect.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Calisson »

Due to an obvious wish to discuss THE topic about enchanted arrows in this site, I split the topic.
Wood Elves: Duplication of enchanted arrows
You'll be pleased to see that I added a poll, too! :D
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Gidean »

So...keeping THIS thread alive it seems that wood elves should place their level 4s in one of three units. Eternal Guard. Being stubborn means this force can stay in the woods and essentially have steadfast whereas the foe won't. Scouts. Again remain stubborn in the woods because they are skirmishers. But here they lose their rank bonus so not as ideal as Eternal Guard. Lastly attached to Sisters of the Thorn. Sort of the same way we use our Warlock Bunkers. Of course this last option really limits the Sister's mobility. But on the other hand the Sisters will enjoy the +1 to cast the same as the Spellweaver and will have a 4++ ward versus damage from the Spellweaver's miscasts. Can't put a Spellweaver with Glad Riders until after they arrive. Can't put one with Way Watchers because the characters did not get the scout rule. And Dryads (which could make a bunker) are a poor choice because they are simply a poor choice period. Though a friend of mine and I agreed that Dryads in the woods under Mindrazor would be nasty and nobody would ever charge them. :lol:
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Gidean wrote:Though a friend of mine and I agreed that Dryads in the woods under Mindrazor would be nasty and nobody would ever charge them. :lol:


Smart people rarely charge any unit under Mindrazor regardless of the terrain situation ...
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Thraundil »

Gidean; I thought common consensus was that a lvl 4 in a unit of sisters/brolocks does NOT get +1 to cast per rank, since the rule only applies to the actual sister/brolocks?
Name: Ladry (female)
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Gidean »

Thraundil wrote:Gidean; I thought common consensus was that a lvl 4 in a unit of sisters/brolocks does NOT get +1 to cast per rank, since the rule only applies to the actual sister/brolocks?

Was talking about plus one from casting in the woods.
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Amboadine »

So bringing this topic on to the models. I know a fair few people are looking at opportunities to use the wood elves for conversion. Thought I would post a few pictures of the wild rider/ Sisters of Thorn box and eternal guard/wildwood rangers box, so you can see if it meets your needs. I will be doing some conversion work this evening to avoid the Eurovision show that I am sure I will be subjected too. Will post in my plog later.

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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Dark reaper »

Thank you very much for the pictures. I was thinking of using the WWR as Shades with great weapons in my army. Do you think that would work?
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Re: Wood Elves

Post by Amboadine »

Dark reaper wrote:Thank you very much for the pictures. I was thinking of using the WWR as Shades with great weapons in my army. Do you think that would work?


Certainly looks possible. That is my plan. Will try and mix and match with some corsairs to see what happens.
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